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  1. #1

    McRoberts and Shooting

    In the linked article it talks about McRoberts routine before NBA games, including his work with the Portland shooting coach. It was obvious to anyone who watched josh at Duke, his outside shot was all over the place. I have also been puzzled with the unorthadox shot DeMarcus employed for four years.

    I know Duke basketball alum Chip England (sp?) is an NBA shot doctor, does the current staff use him at all? I think there is room for development with certain guys in that area....

  2. #2
    The problem is that it's so hard to completely change a jump shot while the season is going on. This would have to be done during the off season and I don't know the rules on how much the staff is allowed to work with players during the off season. I actually think McRoberts made a good decision to leave because his shot was never going to get better while at Duke. He now has a year to work on his jump shot with a shooting coach and post moves with out worrying about playing. He couldn't have done that at Duke.

    If he's still not able to compete at the NBA level after this year then maybe he did make a mistake. The good news is he can always go back and get his degree.

  3. #3

    Shooting

    The fact that he has to work constantly on his shooting does show how much improvement he needs in this area, but I always thought that he would have been well served to develop a hook shot, no matter how old school this seems. He has the perfect build for the hook shot, sort of a shorter version of Kareem. I could talk about George Mikans, but I don't know how many people remember what that drill entails, but it's something you can do on your own.

    Ironically, the article also says that he has accepted the the idea of being a complementary player, which would have been perfect on this year's team.

    Finally, a bit of humor on the idea of him getting his Duke degree. At the end of his sophomore year he had to declare a major, and he was joking around at Cameron that he would choose nuclear physics. I don't think that course of study will work out, but I hope that some day he will return and choose another major.

  4. #4
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    Frankly...

    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    The fact that he has to work constantly on his shooting does show how much improvement he needs in this area, but I always thought that he would have been well served to develop a hook shot, no matter how old school this seems. He has the perfect build for the hook shot, sort of a shorter version of Kareem. I could talk about George Mikans, but I don't know how many people remember what that drill entails, but it's something you can do on your own.

    Ironically, the article also says that he has accepted the the idea of being a complementary player, which would have been perfect on this year's team.

    Finally, a bit of humor on the idea of him getting his Duke degree. At the end of his sophomore year he had to declare a major, and he was joking around at Cameron that he would choose nuclear physics. I don't think that course of study will work out, but I hope that some day he will return and choose another major.
    I would be SHOCKED if Josh ever came back to campus, let alone came back to finish his degree. I hope I'm wrong; I really hope I'm wrong.
    DukeDevilDeb

  5. #5
    All those pre-game workouts make it rather obvious they never really expect him to play...

    I wonder if he does those whne he will dress out for the game that night. if so, it is truly sad.

    BTW, you didnt link the article but im assuming it is this one:
    http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/or...670.xml&coll=7

  6. #6
    I recall that Coach K did not get along so well with some of the Foster holdovers, was Engelland in that group?

  7. #7

    Felton

    Didn't Williams make Felton completely revamp his jumper? He turned a terrible looking jumper (almost Nelsonish) into a much more stable one by the time he left UNC. I guess it takes courage from both parties. It might be tough to convince someone projected as a lottery pick to discard what helped them get there. It also probably only works if the kid plans on staying a couple of years and really dedicating himself to the change.

  8. #8

    Shot

    posted this on another forum regarding the same topic.

    Folks, coaches can't make you go to the gym three hours early. Coaches can't make you take thousands of shots a day. Coaches can't make you put in the hours to improve.

    Coaches can give you the tools you need to allow to use hard work to develop. But the coaches don't have a magic potion which they can just give someone to improve their shots.

    The bottom line is this. When Sean Dockery and D. Jones improved their shots in their respective senior years, it was far more because they spent countless hours working on their shots than it was a result of coaching. Most high school coaches can teach decent form. But it takes a player with tremendous commitment and dedication to spend the hours and hours working on personal skills.

    Seems like McRoberts has figured this out. Good for him.

  9. #9
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    Why must we continue to talk about this guy.

  10. #10
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    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    McRoberts continues to be relevant to us b/c unlike Deng and Brand who were more ready for the NBA, McRoberts was not and he would still be with us right now.

    And as long as his pro career moves along slowly for the next couple of years there will be a lot more second guessing.

  11. #11
    K was trying to get McRoberts to realize that in order to play at the next level he would have to be a low post player. McRoberts didn’t want to be a low post player period and wasn’t going to do anything to improve himself in that area offensively.

    McRoberts hated K and Duke so much for trying to make him something he didn’t want to be. Maybe now that the pro’s have told him the same thing that K told him all along. Maybe now that he was basically asked to leave the Developmental League because of his attitude and unwillingness to learn. Maybe now Josh is starting to listen and do the things that need to be done, maybe, just maybe he will be able to have a future in the NBA.

    Maybe once Josh grows up and realizes all his mistakes he will realize what Coach K and Duke were trying to do for him. I wouldn’t put to much money on it. But hell I didn’t think Josh would be doing what he’s doing now. So anything is possible.

  12. #12
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    Let's just remember that he makes nearly half a million dollars a year while "messing" up his life...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    Let's just remember that he makes nearly half a million dollars a year while "messing" up his life...
    And if he listens to financial advisers as well as he's listened to his coaches so far that money will be gone in a few years. He will be used to a lifestyle that he will not be able to afford. On the other hand, maybe he's maturing and I will be wrong. Here's hoping.

  14. #14
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    I do not think that a "shooting coach" will be of meaningful assistance to Josh. Josh would do much better in engaging in a more thematic exploration of how his body works and how the transfer of energy up his spine might be improved. Shooting technique as such is not the issue, in my opinion.

    Markie presents an interesting challenge. for him to make progress, I think that he will have to carefully examine why it is that he choses to bend his shooting arm so far back beyond the perpendicular on his shots. Until he understands that, understands what it is that he thinks that he gains from that style, I do not see him changing the style. Here again, a shooting "coach" who instructs Markie as to another style, even breaking it down into small segments, will not in my view help Markie make progress towards a style that might be more successful.

    I think that Josh and Markie at some point in time came up with a workable solution to an anatomical issue that seemed to serve them well. We can all agree that the solutions chosen at least in current time seem less than ideal. In Josh's case, the animating issue is apparent; in Markie's, it is not. The first step for each of them is to come to terms with precisely how they go about shooting and what concepts animated the choices that his style incorporates. They can then begin exploring whether alternative perspectives might serve them better. Technique coaches are rarely concerned with what makes an individual unique. However, it is precisely what makes each of these players' shooting styles so unique that is, in my view, the starting point for progress. Or not.

  15. #15
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    It might be tough to convince someone projected as a lottery pick to discard what helped them get there.
    Well perhaps he should have convinced himself, because Josh had one of the ugliest shots to flow through Durham in quite some time. What was he thinking with that float-push-shoot-with-my-right-or-left-or-both toss tumbler?

    I don't want to say anything else on the matter, though. Just not worth it. It is what it is. Josh left. Duke moved on.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I do not think that a "shooting coach" will be of meaningful assistance to Josh. Josh would do much better in engaging in a more thematic exploration of how his body works and how the transfer of energy up his spine might be improved. Shooting technique as such is not the issue, in my opinion.
    Uh, sorry, is this basketball or a yoga discussion?

    And please add Lance Thomas to your focus group.
    Last edited by Cavlaw; 03-31-2008 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Uh, sorry, is this basketball or a yoga discussion?

    And please add Lance Thomas to your focus group.
    Life is Yoga, silly.

    Besides, the issue with McRoberts' shot is McRoberts' back, which dictates a flawed style, at least as I have observed it. Try shooting a basketball with your back stiff and see how you do (wait, maybe that's your style already). Whatever is still going on with McRob's back (and his mind), a shooting coach is not going to attune to it.

    The problem with most skill coaches is that they have a one-size-fits-all approach. For individuals with no particular physical challenges, this can work. It certainly can work with high end athletes devoid of such challenges. However, these guys are not geared to help a challenged individual fashion what will work for him. They work with the best of the best; not with broken players. In my view, both these guys are broken; McRob knows it; Markie, I ain't so sure (if Markie's choice of shooting style is not limited by an old physical limitation, or limitation in his ability to perceive, I'd be very surprised).

    Skill coaches do not deal with such limitations in individuals. It just is not what they do. That IS, however, what each of us does. We develop styles that we think will work for us and usually quit developing when we are satisfied with the results, or when our ability to envision other possibilities, and therefore to execute on them, runs out.

    How to get back to where we were before we quit or reached a road block (I'm betting that Markie has a back thing in his past, btw) and exploring whether the solution reached was (a) necessary, and (b) the best the individual currently can do with further systematic exploration, is the task at hand. Like I said, I doubt that you will find a "shooting guru" with the skill set or inclination to help.

    My guess, you find an individual who has made a career of helping individuals with infirmities devise and work through strategies to accomplish things outside the range of what they understand as possible, and you will find someone who can help McRoberts and Markie make progress. That individual may or may not know Yoga or anything about shooting a basketball except what is discernible by watching some. Or, he could just stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

  18. #18
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    Your comments and approach are interesting. I think that the shooting of Markie and Josh (and many others) are susceptible to improvement, and perhaps to significant improvement. Is a yoga, or holistic, approach the right way to go? Don't know.

    If there is an effective approach incorporating some of your concepts, surely there's someone out there that has the background and training to fill that training role?

  19. #19
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    Is there a doctor in the house?

    I think the BB player on campus most in need of a shot doctor is Abby Waner.

    Her shot has disappeared. She's not squaring and she's using that push shot on the move. Won't work. She needs to discard the push shot and learn a real jump shot.

    She could also use some coaching on how to make layups with someone on her back; be willing to protect the ball, take the foul and then release.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Your comments and approach are interesting. I think that the shooting of Markie and Josh (and many others) are susceptible to improvement, and perhaps to significant improvement. Is a yoga, or holistic, approach the right way to go? Don't know.

    If there is an effective approach incorporating some of your concepts, surely there's someone out there that has the background and training to fill that training role?
    Of course there is, but I don't come cheap. This is not Yogic or holistic, just common sense--comports with what we all know about learning to do any set of movements, when we think about it, learning that is. The problem is that teachers too often try to teach that which can only be learned, and do not know how to really help a student come to terms with how they approach accomplishing the task at hand. If you don't know where you are, what's the chance you get somewhere else.

    Anyway, the world is full of golf teachers yet few help anyone make any meaningful lasting progress. The same with respect to skill teachers in any area of endeavor.

    In my experience, those who are most focused on the process of helping people develop the awarenesses and skills integral to real learning on not skill teachers but rather the types you might find at very high end rehab hospitals, people who work with kids needing remedial assistance, people work with folks who have been severely impaired. Even in those environments, there are too many people who know anatomy and how it should be done, not how a particular individual does it and how he might need to gain new perspectives and experiences to begin to see a direction towards progress.

    High-end instructors working with high end sports persons take most of what I am talking about for granted, and their skill bases do not address those type issues. Yes, this is a real shortcoming in American physical education.

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