2008 Olympics Tryouts

[SilkyJ]

I know its a liiiiiiiiittle early to be posting about this, but it came up in another thread and I typed up all this stuff, and then realized I was thread hijacking, so I thought I'd post elsewhere.

As I do this I am thinking about Ozzie's post regarding Coach K's radio show and how we need to focus on the here and now, but seeing as how I literally typed up all the below, i figured I should post it and not let it go to waste...

I am VERY excited to see who makes the final 12 that go to Beijing. Despite there being a pool of 30+ guys that are part of the program and are trying out for the team, we have had sort of two separate tryouts that involved different cross-sections of the group. Meaning each tryout had 16-20 guys, but only maybe 8-10 guys participated in BOTH tryouts. (Redd, Miller, Kobe, Kidd, Prince, and Amare did not participate in the 2006 tryouts, but all made the final 12 in 2007. Jamison, Bosh, Brand, Battier did not try out in 2007 after all made the final 12 in 2006...thats just off the top of my head too. I'm sure there are others)

THIS time around its going to be All-Hands on deck and its going to be a WAR.

I look at in three groups: 1) Pure Bigs. Meaning they play the 4/5. 2) Wing Forwards. They can play anywhere from 2-4, but are typically 3s in the NBA. 3) Guards. Of which we will have to take AT LEAST 2 if not 3 PGs.

(this is all stream of conciousness so I'm actually interested to see what lineup I end up with at the end. this is not premeditated at all. Also, I am not including morrison, oden, or JJ b/c well, c'mon. They ain't makin squat. Oden could have a shot, but he's hurt anyways so its moot.)

First group: BIGS: Howard, Amare, Brand, Chandler, Boozer, Bosh, Jamison, Collison, Odom, Miller. 3 of those guys make it. The reason I say only 3 make it is b/c K has often played guys like Carmelo and Lebron at PF. In fact, Melo started ALL our games as the starting PF in 2007 so, I'm guessing he'll take more guys from the wing forward crop (list coming up next) then from the pure big man crop. (my early guess for this group is: Howard (a lock), Boozer, and either Jamison or Odom b/c they can shoot, handle the ball, and guard multiple positions. Brand will still be recovering, so I'm giving him a pass).

Second group: Wings: Melo, Lebron, Pierce, Prince, Battier, Marion, Durant, Bowen. 4 of those guys make. (you could stick Kobe in here, but he WILL be our starting SG so I'm going to leave him for the next category. My picks are Melo, Lebron, Marion, Pierce. Kind of a no brainer. Those 4 are all-stars, the other 4 are not.)

3rd Group: Guards: Kidd, Billups, Paul, Williams, Hinrich, Arenas, Ridnour (those are your PGs) and Kobe, Redd, Miller, Joe Johnson, Wade. Pick 5, and I would say 3 HAVE to be PGs. This is fair, imo, b/c PG is not substitutable with other positions, whereas some of the guys in the Wing Forward category can also play SG, like Lebron, Prince, and Pierce. (My picks are Kidd, Paul, Billups at PG, and Kobe and Redd at SG. Joe Johnson could sneak in here b/c he is a PG/SG and is big enough to play SF even...)

Alright, so here's the team I literally just came up with (depth chart style, so you can see who my starting 5 would be):

5: Howard, Boozer
4: Melo, Marion, Jamison
3: Lebron, Pierce
2: Kobe, Wade, Redd
1: Kidd, Paul

So actually, my starting 5 would be the exact same as last summer's...which is fine by me. I cheated a bit and only took 2 pure PGs, but Wade can function as a 3rd PG as well, and its just going to be impossible to keep him off this team, I think. As I look at this though, I think we need more size, so I guess I would cut Jamison and bring in either Amare (Defense Sucks), Chandler (Offense Sucks), or Bosh (not really a center).

[Richard Berg]

Excellent post. My only quibble is the lack of true centers outside of Howard. Boozer is a monster scorer this year but (like Brand) more of a PF.

Too bad Duncan and KG are not part of the program. Heck, you could legitimately claim this team needs a big body who can defend, rebound, and block shots more than it needs another scorer. Marcus Camby is having a terrific year (14reb, 4blk per game!). And there's always Ben Wallace. Alas, we've strayed far from reality at this point.

[crote]

You're right to suggest that this is way too early, but it's so much fun to talk about we can probably let it slide. The US Hoops team has me excited about the Olympics for the first time in my life.

I like your lineups. The only change I would make would be to swap Joe Johnson with Michael Redd. While not quite as good a shooter as Redd, Johnson has a slight size advantage and the ability to play three positions, including (as you pointed out) point guard. He's a good insurance policy and allows for greater flexibility in the lineups than Redd would.

Heck, you could legitimately claim this team needs a big body who can defend, rebound, and block shots more than it needs another scorer. Marcus Camby is having a terrific year (14reb, 4blk per game!). And there's always Ben Wallace. Alas, we've strayed far from reality at this point.

I love Camby's game, but think Howard's presence would make him sort of redundant (that's not necessarily a bad thing, just saying his skill set will be represented on the team). Howard leads the Association in rebounds (Camby is #2) and is fourth in blocks. Between him and Booz, you've got plenty of strength and rebounding at the five.

[phaedrus]

Prince is an all-star, and a much better defender than the other wings except arguably Marion. I would take him over Pierce.

[Exiled_Devil]

I know this is a homer statement, but I will be surpirsed if Shane doesn't make the team. I think the key idea there is 'team' - Shane plays support well, and can also come in when needed to score. He is a great defensive player - I can't compare him to Pierce or Prince, but he gets charged with defending Melo, Kobe, DWade for the Rockets. Shane won't be astarter on the team, but I expect he will be on the team.

FWIW, is K thinking of positions in this team, or is he working with his standard 'we don't really have positions' mentallity?

Exiled

[dukeENG2003]

Prince is an all-star, and a much better defender than the other wings except arguably Marion. I would take him over Pierce.

Yeah, Prince will be hard to keep off the team, he's awesome, and VERY versatile (and unlike a lot of players who people call "versatile", can also shoot).

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

5: Howard, Boozer
4: Melo, Marion, Jamison
3: Lebron, Pierce
2: Kobe, Wade, Redd
1: Kidd, Paul

I love this lineup on O, but not so much on D. Kobe's a great defender and Howard's a beast, but Kidd, 'Melo, and Bron are mediocre on D. I agree with others that Prince has to be in the mix and I'd throw in Battier as well as the 12th man/role-player since his help D is really outstanding. I think it would be great if Elton could make it back since he's just about the offensive/rebounding force that Boozer is, but a much better defender and would be fresh since he missed most of the season. I'd also prefer a 3rd PG to a 3rd 2 guard since I think Kobe's going to play every second he can.

I'd love to see:

5: Howard, Brand (we'd always have a strong shotblocker in the middle)
4: Melo, Prince, Battier (Much better D and better shooting for zones)
3: Lebron, Pierce (hard to argue with these guys)
2: Kobe, Redd
1: Kidd, Paul, and 1 of Billups or D. Williams based on tryouts

I know losing a 2 sounds bad since our struggles with shooting hurt in the past, but the shorter 3 line makes all of our 3's and 4's good shooters and Wade isn't an outstanding shooter anyway.

[paulie dogs]

I would cut Kidd and put in D. Williams...Kidd can't shoot anymore, and a PG in international play needs to be able to shoot. Plus did you see Williams in the playoffs last year...he was unstoppable.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Yeah, but JKidd was GREAT last summer and gives us an experienced backcourt that I really like. I'd absolutely include Williams as well, but he and Paul are still pretty green. Kidd to start games and provide veteran leadership/stability with Paul and Williams taking as many minutes as they are ready for seems like the best option short of forcing Nash to change his citizenship.

[dukeENG2003]

I'd leave Kidd, and Take Billups, Paul, and Williams as our PG's. Billups has that killer instinct as well as leadership (how many championships has Kidd won?). They don't call him "Mr. Big-shot" for nothing. Kidd is great, but his defense is suspect, esp. compared to Billups. Paul and Williams are just as good of passers as Kidd, and they are all better shooters. Kidd's strength on the glass (which is a characteristic that seperates him from a lot of guards in the league) is pretty irrelevant when you have Howard cleaning the glass.

[BD80]

5: Howard, Boozer
4: Melo, Marion, Jamison
3: Lebron, Pierce
2: Kobe, Wade, Redd
1: Kidd, Paul

Great line-up. My tweaks:

PG: I think Billups is a cinch, a veteran with shooting range. I think there will be a choice between Paul and Williams, whoever can play the better D will make the team. The survivor will only play in mop-up time or if Kidd and Billups are having trouble staying in front of a fast PG. I can see Kidd and Billups playing together against smaller backcourts.

Wings: Wade is not a cinch. Defense and shooting will tell. Redd is in. Johnson may be in. I don't think Pierce brings enough shooting or D, his skills are more than met with Lebron, Kobe, & Melo. Melo may not play a lot with Lebron because of D. Prince is a lock because of his D, his length, his ballhandling and his shooting; he is perfect for guarding the 7-footers that can shoot from the outside.

Bigs: Need more height. I think Bosch is the answer. Brand and Boozer are not considered great defensive players in the NBA, and I doubt Brand will be 100%. I would like to see USA consider Rasheed Wallace, he could guard any big they play, but he hasn't been part of the team as they said would be required. It wouldn't surprise me to see Shane on the team in place of Bosch or Marion.

Thus:

5: Howard, Boozer
4: Lebron, Prince, Bosch
3: Melo, Marion
2: Kobe, Redd
1: Kidd, Billups, Paul

[pfrduke]

Great line-up. My tweaks:

PG: I think Billups is a cinch, a veteran with shooting range. I think there will be a choice between Paul and Williams, whoever can play the better D will make the team. The survivor will only play in mop-up time or if Kidd and Billups are having trouble staying in front of a fast PG. I can see Kidd and Billups playing together against smaller backcourts.

Wings: Wade is not a cinch. Defense and shooting will tell. Redd is in. Johnson may be in. I don't think Pierce brings enough shooting or D, his skills are more than met with Lebron, Kobe, & Melo. Melo may not play a lot with Lebron because of D. Prince is a lock because of his D, his length, his ballhandling and his shooting; he is perfect for guarding the 7-footers that can shoot from the outside.

Bigs: Need more height. I think Bosch is the answer. Brand and Boozer are not considered great defensive players in the NBA, and I doubt Brand will be 100%. I would like to see USA consider Rasheed Wallace, he could guard any big they play, but he hasn't been part of the team as they said would be required. It wouldn't surprise me to see Shane on the team in place of Bosch or Marion.

Thus:

5: Howard, Boozer
4: Lebron, Prince, Bosch
3: Melo, Marion
2: Kobe, Redd
1: Kidd, Billups, Paul

This man plays for the Raptors (and possibly USA basketball):


This man does not:

[crote]

I understand what some of you are saying about Kidd, that his D is suspect and shooting is sub par. That's all true. I still say he has to be on the team. As others have pointed out, he provides a veteran presence and leadership. He's the only viable point guard that brings both of those qualities.

Just as important, though, is the one aspect of Kidd's game that hasn't slipped lately: his ability to lead the break. Shooting is of course important, as we've learned in recent years, but our biggest advantage over the rest of the world remains our speed, athleticism, and overall talent level. Kidd gives us the best chance of anyone to exploit that in transition, and should make the team on the strength of that alone.

[SilkyJ]

Let me start with a couple corrections of just plain false/bad information:

Prince is an all-star, and a much better defender than the other wings except arguably Marion. I would take him over Pierce.

Prince is NOT an all-star nor has he ever been. Pierce is a 6 time all-star (5 straight before he missed last year, then back again this year)

I love this lineup on O, but not so much on D. Kobe's a great defender and Howard's a beast, but Kidd, 'Melo, and Bron are mediocre on D.

Kidd is not mediocre on D that is just flat out wrong. He may be older but he is still at a minimum a good defender if not a very good defender. The guy has been 1st or 2nd team FOR NINE STRAIGHT YEARS.

(Links: All defense teams through 2006 season:
http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveteams.html
All defense last year:
http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news...or_070430.html)

Lebron is also a good defender when he turns it on.

Now please people, don't start spewing facts if you don't know what you are talking about. Onto comments I liked

I like your lineups. The only change I would make would be to swap Joe Johnson with Michael Redd. While not quite as good a shooter as Redd, Johnson has a slight size advantage and the ability to play three positions, including (as you pointed out) point guard. He's a good insurance policy and allows for greater flexibility in the lineups than Redd would.

Agreed all around and I like your suggestion a ton. Johnson is also a better defender in general, and in fact, I bet he guards the 1, 2, and 3 better than Redd (and as I will get to shortly, I think defense will be a point of emphasis on this team just like it was last summer. And it will start with aggressive perimeter D)

I love Camby's game, but think Howard's presence would make him sort of redundant (that's not necessarily a bad thing, just saying his skill set will be represented on the team). Howard leads the Association in rebounds (Camby is #2) and is fourth in blocks. Between him and Booz, you've got plenty of strength and rebounding at the five.

I think that we will play aggressive D on the perimeter which will lead to drives/back door cuts and we will need a shotblocker down there. Boozer is a very good rebounder, but camby is his equal there and is a better shot blocker...not to mention a more legit 5...boozer has him on offense, but defense in the post will be key (kinda like how we used to lean on shelden and he would bail us out with great blocks, I think we will need some of that)

I know this is a homer statement, but I will be surpirsed if Shane doesn't make the team.

I would be. He is just competing against too many REALLLLLLY good players at his position:

Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce, and Marion. Those guys are stars in the league. Lebron and Melo are in. Period. Coach K loves those guys and they are leaders of this team. Marion's defense is as good if not better than shane's and he is slightly more versatile and definitely more athletic. The only one you could cut, imo, is Pierce, but he's too good of a scorer methinks.

FWIW, is K thinking of positions in this team, or is he working with his standard 'we don't really have positions' mentallity?

To a certain degree, especially b/c guys like Melo, Bron, and Kobe (and even kidd and billups) can play facing the basket or post-up. The one exception is that Howard will be GLUED to the low block, imo.

Great line-up. My tweaks:

PG: I think Billups is a cinch, a veteran with shooting range.

Wings: Wade is not a cinch. Defense and shooting will tell. Redd is in. Johnson may be in. I don't think Pierce brings enough shooting or D, his skills are more than met with Lebron, Kobe, & Melo. Melo may not play a lot with Lebron because of D. Prince is a lock because of his D, his length, his ballhandling and his shooting; he is perfect for guarding the 7-footers that can shoot from the outside.

Bigs: Need more height. I think Bosch is the answer.

I agree about Bosh. Wouldn't be surprised at all if he makes the team. Don't think Billups is a CINCH, but I think he is in.

As for prince, I don't know why you think he is a lock. I like his game, especially in a complementary role on this team, but I don't think he's a cinch. He's competing against some big time names out on the wing where we are just STACKED.

As for Wade, remember he was a captain of the team in 2006, and I think coach K likes him a lot. He's also a good defender. I think he is on this team no matter what.

[SilkyJ]

Just as important, though, is the one aspect of Kidd's game that hasn't slipped lately: his ability to lead the break. Shooting is of course important, as we've learned in recent years, but our biggest advantage over the rest of the world remains our speed, athleticism, and overall talent level. Kidd gives us the best chance of anyone to exploit that in transition, and should make the team on the strength of that alone.

His veteran leadership (the only guy on the team to have won a gold medal at the olympics) and the above will not only put him on the team, but will make him the starter, imo. He gets to run with Kobe, Bron, and Melo! Those are 3 of the best finishers PERIOD, and on the break?!? forget about it. Kidd can take 2-3 shots all game, if any, and still be EXTREMELY effective on this team.

Paul is playing really well and could compete for the starting job, but his size/defense disadvantage relative to Kidd makes him the #2 option, imo.

[phaedrus]

You're right about Prince not being an All-star. I forgot he was the only Piston starter not to be an All-Star three seasons ago, and for some reason I also thought he qualified this year. Still, with his defense and offensive versatility, I'd definitely like to see him make the team.

I also consider Kidd a lock. Yeah, his shooting sucks. But with him in the game, offense will never be a problem. And I'm not sure where you all are getting your information on Kidd's defense. I think he has long been considered an above-average, if not top-notch, defensive point guard. He is a hard-nosed, pass-first point guard who loves to run the break. It's a given that Coach K loves him.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Kidd is not mediocre on D that is just flat out wrong. He may be older but he is still at a minimum a good defender if not a very good defender. The guy has been 1st or 2nd team FOR NINE STRAIGHT YEARS.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have lumped Kidd in with the other two, although I do think he's slipped a good bit and his rep now exceeds his defensive game. In my defense, I have been arguing to keep him as our starting PG despite his age and liability from outside.

I also think people generally (not just in this thread) tend to take NBA accolades/numbers and assume that they carry over seamlessly to international competition. Guys like Amare, Wade, and Shaq who are (or were in Shaq's case) NBA superstars often don't fit as well in the international game based on the different lines, the different opponents, and the different officiating. Duncan, for example, is arguably the best post player in the NBA but he's struggled so much with international officiating that he won't even join the team anymore.

The converse of that is that guys like Prince, Melo, and arguably Battier look a lot better in international ball. Melo is the poster child for this phenomenon, where he's been the best (except for perhaps Kobe) player on a team with tons of guys who are much bigger NBA stars. I also think that K has put a premium on role-players and chemistry with this team, which explains the role for guys like Prince, Battier, etc and, FWIW, I think completely disqualifies a guy like R. Wallace.

[BD80]

Prince brings something different at a loaded position, actually several things:

Defense. There isn't as good a defender at this position - on ball or help defense. The hoo-ha about "all-star" is absolutely meaningless. Scoring a bunch of points and having dunks on ESPN is virtually meaningless in winning on the international level. Playing TEAM defense is MUCH, MUCH more important.

Length. Tay is essentially a seven footer in wing span and reach, and can defend the 7 footers that shoot from the outside.

Shooting. A premium in the international game.

Ballhandling. Last year when Billups went down, the Pistons ran the offense through Prince.

Better question, who are you keeping on the squad that isn't duplicative of skills Lebron, Kobe and Melo give us? Pierce is a great player, he just doesn't bring anything to the party we don't already have. We are putting together a team, not an all-star team.


As for Kidd, he never was a great on the ball defender, but he is still a great defender. He sees the court so well and can anticipate and react. Fortunately for the US team, Avery Johnson is willing to rest Kidd at crunch time during the regular season. Kidd will have trouble staying in front of really fast point guards (as does Billups), so Paul or Williams will make the team.

[RPS]

For what it's worth, my 12:

Paul, Williams, Billups: Kidd gets further away from the fabulous player and defender he was every with tick of the clock. He can still run the break but so can Paul and Williams. Plus shooting is especially important in the int'l game. Billups gives that veteran presence and the ability to hit the big shot.

Kobe, Wade: These choices are easy IMHO.

LeBron, Melo, Prince, Boozer, Marion: Battier has a chance as a role guy (IMbiasedO), but Tay is too good and, more importantly, too versatile I think. Brand won't be able to be in game shape so I leave him off. I like Boozer for his back-to-the-basket ability and for him to run the screen/roll with Williams if the offense is struggling and with shooters spotted up. I'm not totally sold on Marion but I like him best for D and versatility (that word again -- I think it's key).

Howard, Bosh: I'd like a "purer" big to go with Howard, but these two will do just fine.

[SilkyJ]

I also think that K has put a premium on role-players and chemistry with this team, which explains the role for guys like Prince, Battier, etc and, FWIW, I think completely disqualifies a guy like R. Wallace.

This I definitely agree with.

I do think, however, that coach K would say that anyone who is on the team would be willing to become a "role-player" for the betterment of the team. That is a pre-req for making the team. Check your ego at the door and do what you are asked to do. So in that case, would you rather have say Marion as a role player on this team or Battier...its a tough call but Marion is a better player, imo...

Prince brings something different at a loaded position, actually several things:

Defense. There isn't as good a defender at this position - on ball or help defense. The hoo-ha about "all-star" is absolutely meaningless. Scoring a bunch of points and having dunks on ESPN is virtually meaningless in winning on the international level. Playing TEAM defense is MUCH, MUCH more important.

"being an all-star is absolutely meaningless"

OK, fine. In that case we'll get Dan Dickau to run point. B/c being one of the top 25 players in the league, and hence REALLY FREAKING GOOD AT BASKETBALL is meaningless. I mean, who wants good basketball players on a basketball team.

"scoring a bunch of points is meaningless"

cause basketball isn't about scoring more points than your opponent.

Now your are obviously saying that being an all-star isn't everything and there are roles for people like Battier/Prince to play, but you took it a little extreme by saying it was meaningless (and I took it a little extreme with my literal interpretation above). I agree that Prince may be the best defender, and a versatile one, at that position, and I agree that Krzyzewski will a premium on D. But Marion is a very good defender and can guard beefier players (Tay is RAIL thin) and I don't think its enough to overcome the fact that Paul Pierce is one of the best basketball players in the United States. (it seems we all agree that Lebron, Melo are in, so its between these 3: prince, pierce, marion, and maybe Battier)

Length. Tay is essentially a seven footer in wing span and reach, and can defend the 7 footers that shoot from the outside.

Yea but he can't guard them on the inside. Marion can guard them in both places.

Shooting. A premium in the international game.

He is an underrated shooter, I'll give you that, but Pierce is his equal and Pierce is a better passer, imo.

Ballhandling. Last year when Billups went down, the Pistons ran the offense through Prince.

He's better than Marion, but Pierce is his equal here as well. And Marion ain't bad either even if his shot looks ridiculous (tho's he's having a rough year this year from 3)

Better question, who are you keeping on the squad that isn't duplicative of skills Lebron, Kobe and Melo give us? Pierce is a great player, he just doesn't bring anything to the party we don't already have. We are putting together a team, not an all-star team.

Now that may be the real question and may be what gets Prince on this team as he is a little more versatile a better defender than Pierce. But at the end of the day I think pierce is way better as a basketball player and that will win out...

Oh yea, Prince went to Kentucky, sooo, yeaaa....