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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC

    Smile Letter to Fayetteville Observer

    I know I am asking for it by posting this as a thread here but I read alot of great comments in other threads so I want to throw this out to the Duke Fans to get thier feedback and opinions. Oh...and I welcome any BBQ recipes!!

    ----------------Letter is as Follows------------------------------------
    I am a soldier stationed at Fort Bragg and I subscribe to the Fayetteville Observer. I am from a little town in Kentucky called Elizabethtown. Thus being a native Kentuckian I have developed an affinity for College Basketball. I have been stationed here for almost a year and feel like I am a crusader in an unholy land. In other words I am a Kentucky Wildcat Fan. So why am I informing you of this fact? I just read your article on your field trip to 3 different ACC games in the 20 Jan Edition. I could not let your comment “the folks in Kentucky” “might challenge our dominance” without pointing out a few facts to you so you may enlighten your knowledge of Basketball in Kentucky.
    First I will say that the programs you give such accolades to (UNC and Duke) are great college programs. They are perennial powerhouses in the ACC. They are well coached and receive almost too much media attention from ESPN and the likes of Dick Vitale. I will also concede because it’s the truth that the University of Kentucky does not have a winning record against UNC. With that being said let me drop some knowledge on you:

    Kentucky is the winningest college basketball program in the History of the Game. They also have a higher win percentage than UNC and Duke. This is a result of decades of work and excellence in a conference (SEC) that is and has always been comparable or superior to the ACC. UNC ranks #2 on that list. Duke is respectably #4. This list is as of the end of the 2007 season.
    Per NCAA.org:
    The history of the game goes through Kentucky. At Kansas Adolph Rupp played the game of under the inventor of Basketball Dr. James Neighsmith himself. John Wooden started his coaching career as a high school coach in Kentucky.
    Do you realize that Dean Smith Coached 1133 games to Rupp’s 1066? How did Rupp achieve a higher Winning Percentage if he coached fewer games but yet coached 5 years more than Smith? Simple: In the earlier days of College Basketball the seasons were considerably shorter. This makes Adolf Rupp’s achievement shine a little brighter than Smith’s in my opinion. Do you also know that Kentucky has produced more All-Americans than any other Division I School? These stats are listed on NCAA.org

    I continue being a Wildcat Fan today in what is turning out to be their worst season since 1989. I display my Kentucky Wildcat logo proudly regardless. Remember it wasn’t too long ago that UNC Program was getting embarrassed by teams across the country. Remember that it only took UK three years to rebound from that low point.

    Basketball in Kentucky encompasses the entire state. Not just in Division I but Division II and III. Kentucky Wesleyan University has 8 National Championships in Division II Men’s Basketball. I have witnessed Murray State University (a perennial Ohio Valley Conference Power) come to North Carolina in 1995 and 1997 and play UNC and Duke respectively in the first round of the NCAA Tourney only to lose by single digits. I have often wondered what the score would have been if the games would have been in Kentucky or Indiana.

    In conclusion I remind myself that UK has a stronger passion for the game than any other college team. It is with that fact that I relay to you what Rick Pitino openly admitted: Kentucky “Is where, without a doubt, College Basketball started.” The stats I just shared with you are just a small collection that outlines Kentucky’s excellence. Sir the numbers do not lie. I hope that in the future you could make the trip to Lexington Kentucky and visit Rupp Arena and just see what I am talking about. Please remember that it is not UK that is challenging UNC’s dominance in the sport but quite the opposite.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FYI this is being printed in the Sunday Edition this week (11 FEB)
    Ok Folks...bring on the sauce!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Chris,

    I'm not sure why you think you are "asking for it" by posting your opinion. DBR posters enjoy reading thoughts from the fans of other schools. Please continue to post as I look forward to reading more from you.

    As a Fayetteville native, and lifelong Dukefanatic, I share your disdain for the Fayetteville Observer. Though they have improved some in recent years, the FO has been a Carolina Rag for years.
    Bob Green

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Chris,

    I'm not sure why you think you are "asking for it" by posting your opinion. DBR posters enjoy reading thoughts from the fans of other schools. Please continue to post as I look forward to reading more from you.

    As a Fayetteville native, and lifelong Dukefanatic, I share your disdain for the Fayetteville Observer. Though they have improved some in recent years, the FO has been a Carolina Rag for years.
    Thanks Mr. Green!! I am still new in here and I am trying to develop intelligent discussion. So far so good!!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lexington, KY

    Talking A fight over Q, but the FO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Chris,

    I'm not sure why you think you are "asking for it" by posting your opinion. DBR posters enjoy reading thoughts from the fans of other schools. Please continue to post as I look forward to reading more from you.

    As a Fayetteville native, and lifelong Dukefanatic, I share your disdain for the Fayetteville Observer. Though they have improved some in recent years, the FO has been a Carolina Rag for years.
    DD,
    Thanks for your service. STAY WELL!!

    I'm in complete agreement w/Bob Green on this one. Your post continues in the fine tradition of DBR posts from people outside the fold. Again, to give you a feel for how much we enjoy "reading thoughts from the fans from other schools," take a look at the adulation given to Klem in yesterday's "Props to Klemnop" post. When it's well-reasoned with passion and minus invectives, it's well-received. My only issue was a spelling thing (Naismith), but I'm in the middle of grading a stack of college papers, so pardon me on that one.

    If you wanted to rile things up, you could have included a line about Q ... but you didn't.

    If you get the opportunity, you MUST make your way to visit Cameron Indoor Stadium (CIS) for a game. If you have the passion for the game (and you do), you simply have to take it in and enjoy. I know that Rupp Arena is large, but it has a special place for UK fans, and is loaded with history. No one will deny that. Yet you are denying a part of your own sense of awe of the game if you never make it to CIS. We like to think that CIS on game day maintains the gym feel & spirit of the game, especially so in an era of big arenas, big tv, and big talk. Please look at the first post of KenTankerous, or search for the post of the guy from Cornell.

    Again, welcome to the DBR, and thank you for your service.

    Cheers,
    Lavabe

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Partly Orlando, FL partly heard Sandpoint, ID
    There are various quibbles that could be made with a few points, but for the most part, they are just that, quibbles. But I would take exception to the notion that college basketball started, or that's the focal point of its history is Kentucky basketball. Even in the letter there is an allusion to Kansas basketball. And if anyone has a claim to the historical basis of college basketball, its Kansas. First coach, some guy named Naismith. A few years later, Phog Allen comes to town, whose coaching tree is the father of pretty much all coaching trees, since it includes Adolph Rupp and Dean Smith(and thus, the fruits of those branches as well).
    Kansas doesn't hold up nearly as well on the court(the only noteworthy feat they have is the most conference championships, but that's due to the lesser stature of the Big 8/12, though I find it a bit amusing the claim that the SEC is comparable/superior to the ACC), where Kentucky first, and UNC second claim long , excellent traditions. But you have to give them the history nod.
    Though I can't resist one jab at Kansas... sure they've gotten off to a great start this year, but can Bill Selfdestruct manage to get by Alabama St in the 1st round? Only time will tell

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Add John McLendon to the Kansas coaching tree.

    The most questionable part of the letter is the suggestion that the SEC has historically been comparable to the ACC. Utter nonsense. Rupp rarely had to compete against the kind of depth that McGuire, Smith, or Bubas went against. The SEC was a football league during that period, first, second, and third.

  7. #7

    As long as the school doesn't start with a B

    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    snip
    But you have to give them the history nod.
    Though I can't resist one jab at Kansas... sure they've gotten off to a great start this year, but can Bill Selfdestruct manage to get by Alabama St in the 1st round? Only time will tell
    They only have problems if the team begins with a B - Bucknell and Bradley. Perhaps the Killer Bs?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lexington, KY

    History question

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Add John McLendon to the Kansas coaching tree.

    The most questionable part of the letter is the suggestion that the SEC has historically been comparable to the ACC. Utter nonsense. Rupp rarely had to compete against the kind of depth that McGuire, Smith, or Bubas went against. The SEC was a football league during that period, first, second, and third.
    Agreed that the SEC comparison is the most questionable statement, and if I'd have my druthers, I'd prefer he replace some of the SEC bluster in the statement with comparable statistics. My question is how one would even begin to compare the conferences from 1932-1953, from the beginning of the SEC to the beginning of the ACC (I know, we could include the Southern Conference days). Considering that the SEC charter group came largely from the SoCon that included what later became the ACC, I am uncomfortable with establishing one side superior over the other in an absence of stats. The '53-71 period assessment is also tough to evaluate. What stat do we want to choose? Considering the changeover in conference composition and schedules at this time, I wonder how to assess.

    Overall strength of schedule (was that EVER assessed)? Overall won-lost (has THIS ever been examined)? Head-to-head (any stats on that)?

    I'm most intrigued with jim's statement about the depth of the ACC. Not that I question what he is saying since about 1971, but I am genuinely intrigued by what he means by "depth," especially during the pre-1959 (Bubas) period. At the time in a smaller conference that involved less travel, just how strong was each team vs. other conferences around the country? I mean, I can recall reading things about McGuire, but how did the other ACC teams during this early time stack up outside the conference?

    Cheers and thanks,
    Lavabe
    Last edited by Lavabe; 02-09-2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9

    Welcome to Chris

    I enjoyed reading your comments re the letter sent to the Fayetteville newspaper.

    One very nice thing about this board is that "dissenting" opinions (such as non-followers of the DUKE royal blue!) are welcome, so long as they are made in good taste. If you visit many other fan sites, you can appreciate this one as an oasis in the midst of a vast desert.

    I will not get into the infamous BBQ discussions, but hopefully you have been able to sample the eastern NC variety for comparison.

    And, a firm thank you, for your service to the country. Many years ago (can you say "draft"?) I had a few travels that began in the summertime with some fun and games at Ft Jackson in Columbia, SC.

    k

  10. #10
    You can expect UNC fans to point out that Dean Smith was something like 5-2 against Rupp. They claim he was an underdog in all of those games, but I am only repeating what they say whenever I needle them about Rupp's percentage versus Smith's. They also usually bring up the "racist Rupp" angle, and I have no idea of how true that is.

    I also agree that the SEC has simply not been as good as the ACC and that was especially true in Rupp's time.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    There are various quibbles that could be made with a few points, but for the most part, they are just that, quibbles. But I would take exception to the notion that college basketball started, or that's the focal point of its history is Kentucky basketball. Even in the letter there is an allusion to Kansas basketball. And if anyone has a claim to the historical basis of college basketball, its Kansas. First coach, some guy named Naismith. A few years later, Phog Allen comes to town, whose coaching tree is the father of pretty much all coaching trees, since it includes Adolph Rupp and Dean Smith(and thus, the fruits of those branches as well).
    Kansas doesn't hold up nearly as well on the court(the only noteworthy feat they have is the most conference championships, but that's due to the lesser stature of the Big 8/12, though I find it a bit amusing the claim that the SEC is comparable/superior to the ACC), where Kentucky first, and UNC second claim long , excellent traditions. But you have to give them the history nod.
    Though I can't resist one jab at Kansas... sure they've gotten off to a great start this year, but can Bill Selfdestruct manage to get by Alabama St in the 1st round? Only time will tell
    Deslok...Man you are really popping the retro kid memories on me. That was "Star Blazers" right?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC

    Smile Well they have to hold on to something!

    I still haven't figured that one out. Kentucky, historically, has never really intimidated UNC like they do other teams by just showing up with KENTUCKY written across thier Jerseys.

    I concede that UNC has got a winning record against UK. We just can't seem to get the best of them with the exception of a few times. I remember back in 98 when UNC and UK were in the Final 4. I wanted a UK/UNC Championship game!! Didn't get it though.

    As far as Racist Rupp. To this day even Kentuckians argue about Rupp being a racist. The movie "Glory Road" sure wasn't a positive image. I am not sure that he was or wasn't. His actions of recruiting white players sure made him look that way. However was that what was expected of him back then? Take a look at some of Oscar Robinson's comments about playing a professional basketball game in Lexington Kentucky mid century. I think the experience still scars him to this day. Kentucky was a bad place to be if you were black back then. I have even heard discussion on ESPN that maybe UK's first four championships should have asterisks next to them because of the all white teams. Wish I could answer that better but I sure don't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by sandinmyshoes View Post
    You can expect UNC fans to point out that Dean Smith was something like 5-2 against Rupp. They claim he was an underdog in all of those games, but I am only repeating what they say whenever I needle them about Rupp's percentage versus Smith's. They also usually bring up the "racist Rupp" angle, and I have no idea of how true that is.

    I also agree that the SEC has simply not been as good as the ACC and that was especially true in Rupp's time.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Lavabe View Post
    Agreed that the SEC comparison is the most questionable statement, and if I'd have my druthers, I'd prefer he replace some of the SEC bluster in the statement with comparable statistics. My question is how one would even begin to compare the conferences from 1932-1953, from the beginning of the SEC to the beginning of the ACC (I know, we could include the Southern Conference days). Considering that the SEC charter group came largely from the SoCon that included what later became the ACC, I am uncomfortable with establishing one side superior over the other in an absence of stats. The '53-71 period assessment is also tough to evaluate. What stat do we want to choose? Considering the changeover in conference composition and schedules at this time, I wonder how to assess.

    Overall strength of schedule (was that EVER assessed)? Overall won-lost (has THIS ever been examined)? Head-to-head (any stats on that)?

    I'm most intrigued with jim's statement about the depth of the ACC. Not that I question what he is saying since about 1971, but I am genuinely intrigued by what he means by "depth," especially during the pre-1959 (Bubas) period. At the time in a smaller conference that involved less travel, just how strong was each team vs. other conferences around the country? I mean, I can recall reading things about McGuire, but how did the other ACC teams during this early time stack up outside the conference?

    Cheers and thanks,
    Lavabe
    I was responding to another comment when I lost my connection!!

    I have to answer generally to this. I submit to you that the ACC and the SEC are strong basketball conferences. Most of the teams in those conferences have the ability to beat all of the other teams in that conference. However when the record of a team is examined by a fan of the other conference the # of losses is more transparant to them than the wins. So it appears to the ACC fan that the SEC is weak because the teams are winning against each other. Conversely someone has to win in the two games of the year when UNC and DUKE play each other. Someone get's a loss there. I will do some more research on strength of schedule. Now before I get jumped on by people claiming "Gardner Webb beat UK and so did UAB" I want to clarify that I am speaking from a general point of view.

    This and the fact that the mainstream media is an ACC fan is why I have always advocated the ACC-SEC Challenge instead of the ACC-Big Ten challenge. I do like this forum!!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Partly Orlando, FL partly heard Sandpoint, ID
    Yes indeed, it is a Star Blazers reference(I was using the ID online for a few years before I realized that per various sources, there should be 2 esses in the name. Ooops, oh well. Which reminds me, need to see if I can track down the DVDs somewhere over here...

    We're off... to outer space... We're leaving... Mother Earth... to save... the human race...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    Yes indeed, it is a Star Blazers reference(I was using the ID online for a few years before I realized that per various sources, there should be 2 esses in the name. Ooops, oh well. Which reminds me, need to see if I can track down the DVDs somewhere over here...

    We're off... to outer space... We're leaving... Mother Earth... to save... the human race...
    OUR STAR BLAAAAZERSS

  16. #16

    SEC vs. ACC

    Just to weigh in ... if you Kentucky newcomers are interested in a Duke take on the movie Glory Road and a fair consideration of Rupp's alleged racism, you might want to check out this column from 2006:

    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=20571

    As for the ACC-SEC debate, I don't want to sound like a mindless partisan, but I have to agree with Jim Sumner -- historically, there's no debate. Only in recent years has the SEC become the same kind of deep, competitive league as the ACC.

    Let's see if we can't find some evidence to support that claim.

    Let's start with the NCAA Tournament. The ACC is far and away the No. 1 conference in NCAA play with a 323-160 record (66.8 percent). The SEC is fifth at 234-162 (59.1 percent), trailing not only the ACC, but also the Big East, the Big Ten and the Pac 10.

    Both leagues have 10 NCAA titles, BUT ... seven of the SEC titles belong to Kentucky, an eighth was won by Arkansas soon after joining the league and two more were won by Florida in the last two years.

    Four different ACC teams have won titles -- and seven have reached the Final Four (not counting FSU in its pre-ACC days). The SEC has 23 Final Four appearces -- 13 by Kentucky. The ACC has has 37 Final Four appearances.

    Head to head, the ACC has won 56 percent of its games against the SEC since the ACC formed in 1953-4.

    When the original Southern Conference began playing a postgame tournament in 1924 (the SIAC has sponsored an earlier tournament starting in 1921 that was won by Kentucky, UNC and Mississippi A&M), the bulk of the teams that make up the current SEC and ACC competed in the same league -- only fairly even turns. Future ACC teams won five titles ... future SEC teams won four.

    After the 1932 season, the Southern Conference split -- strictly on geographical lines -- the schools from South Carolina, NC, Virginia and Maryland staying in the Southern, the schools to the west forming the SEC.

    At the time, there was little to choose between the two leagues. But after the split, a curious thing happened. The SEC dropped its postseason tournament, while the Southern continued its. In the SEC, Kentucky -- with young coach Adolph Rupp -- began to pour resources into its basketball program, while most of its new SEC rivals turned to football.

    Throughout the 30s, the 40s, 50s and well into the 60s, Kentucky was barely challenged in the league. Mississippi State had some good teams under Babe McCarthy, Tennessee under Ray Mears, Georgia Tech (then an SEC team) under Whack Hyder and Vandy under Roy Skinner had some good teams, but just for the record, those coaches combined to win three NCAA games in their careers. Harry Rabenhorst (a Wake graduate, BTW) won two NCAA games at LSU with Bob Pettit in 1953, but that's the best non-Kentucky showing by an SEC school until Dale Brown's LSU team reached the Final Four in 1981!

    If you want a good look at what Kentucky was competing against in the SEC in that era, read Norm Sloan's biography and get a glance at what he was up against as the basketball coach at a football school in the early 1960s.

    Now, the Southern from 1933-53 was not perfectly balanced either ... nor was the early ACC.

    But it was always far more competitive and balanced than the Kentucky-dominated SEC. The four Tobacco Road programs always poured resources and passion into hoops ... so did Maryland. In the Southern Conference era, there were also strong programs at Washington and Lee and West Virginia.

    By 1963, all four members of the Big Four had played in the Final Four. During the 50's and early '60s, those four teams dominated the league (Maryland winning one title in 1958), but by the mid-late 60s, Frank McGuire was an South Carolina, Lefty Driesell at Maryland and there were new stadiums at Clemson and Virginia.

    Over the last decade or two, the SEC has been a deep, talented league ... as deep and as talented overall as the ACC ... but it's a fairly recent phenomena.

    As for the state of Kentucky vs. the state of North Carolina -- Kentucky and Louisville have been great division one programs and Western Kentucky even made a final four run (even if it was vacated by the NCAA). But five different North Carolina schools have reached the Final Four (Duke, UNC, N.C. State, Wake Forest, UNC-Charlotte) and a sixth just missed (Davidson in 1967 and 1969). The ACC has a women's NCAA title (UNC), several NAIA titles (Winston-Salem State, Guilford) at least two Division II titles (North Carolina Central, Barton College).

    I understand that Kentucky fans are frustrated about the way ESPN covers basketball these days. I agree with them that Kentucky is -- historically -- the nation's best program. But in the modern era, whether you define that as with the birth of ESPN in 1979 or with the modern 64-team NCAA field in 1985, Duke and UNC have been the nation's two most successful programs. I think that, more than anything else, explains the attention the network has given those two programs.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lexington, KY

    Thanks Olympic Fan

    Olympic Fan,
    Thanks for your detailed and well-thought response. The timing & detail of the response was made only more important with the celebration yesterday for Dick Groat. Always great to read about the history of the conference!
    Cheers,
    Lavabe

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Thanks does not begin to describe how appreciative I am of you sharing all of this information. I think what you point out here is what Kentucky and Duke fanatics fail to realize. I agree...based on what Olympic Fan has submitted here I have to agree. UK is historically the Better Program but during the ESPN Era Duke and UNC have performed better than UK. Did you know all of that off the top of your head or did you cut and paste all of those stats from somewhere? Not that I am questioning your sources but I would like to know where you got the information so I can do my own research into Division II and III NCAA Stats. Almost shared my 1997 story just now!!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Louisville, KY

    Let me ask you this...

    How much an improvement in their season would UK see if they went 22-11 and made it to the NCAA tournament?

    That has been Duke's "worst" season (i.e., last year) since 1995 (which nadir was preceded by four National Championship game appearances and two Titles in 5 years). UK would need to win 10 of its last 12 games to equal Duke's tragically disappointing 2006-07 season, which became the subject of countless articles and pundit conjecturing about the end of an era. (This season has slammed the door shut on that query.) So let that little fact inform your opinion of program relevance and dominance.

  20. #20

    records

    Quote Originally Posted by dynastydefender View Post
    Did you know all of that off the top of your head or did you cut and paste all of those stats from somewhere? Not that I am questioning your sources but I would like to know where you got the information so I can do my own research into Division II and III NCAA Stats. Almost shared my 1997 story just now!!
    DD, I got my information of the NCAA's official Final Four Record Book (which,despite the title, includes the complete tournament record). It's published annually by the NCAA in Indianapolis. Gary Johnson is the editor. It's a VERY useful book for determining team and conference and coaching records in NCAA Tourney play.

    Some of it came from the ACC Basketball Media Guide, published annually in Greensboro. Brian Morrison is the editor.

    The Division II stuff comes from the NCAA Record Book (which is actually more a compilation of individual and team records than postseason events). Also published in Indy with Gary Johnson as editor.

    The NAIA references come off the top of my head. That's why I was a little vague. Okay, I looked it up -- glad I did, as I was off a little. Only Guilford won the NAIA title (1973) with Bob Kauffman. Winston-Salem State won the NCAA College Division (later Division II) in 1967 with Earl Monroe. NCCU won the Division II title in 1989 and Barton won in 2007.

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