Pre Coach K Players

[sagegrouse]

Jeff Mullins is one of the most personable individuals I have ever known. He is unfailingly polite and friendly and truly interested in anyone he meets. I have known him casually for 40+ years, and I know his close friends feel the same way about him.

sagegrouse

[Uncle Drew]

I see Jeff Mullins from time to time at alumni or other events at Duke. Whenever possible I make my way to wherever he is to speak to him and thank him for something he did when I was a freshman and he was a senior. My big sister in the dorm had asked me to get his autograph. One afternoon I saw him seated with the late Ted Mann, Jr. over in the football stadium watching the freshman football team. He was very gracious in giving his autograph that day long ago and continues to be very gracious when I see him now. He not only gave a generic autograph for my big sister, but he wrote one just for me. I still have it! I missed seeing Verga at our class reunion in the spring ... the freshman basketball team had a reunion which included Chuck Dailey, their coach ...my recall of his personality is that he's not outgoing when he comes to meet and greet activities. Art Heyman was also very gracious and really seemed to relish writing a special note. And Gene Banks.... I don't think he's every met a stranger!

Chuck Dailey? The Dailey who coached the Pistons to two championships?


I know this has been brought up and posted on DBR before but I can't recall the specifics. I know Duke has gone back and retro retired a few jerseys. But what exactly ARE the requirements to have your jersey retired at Duke. Granted I don't want to be like UNC where if you started a game each of your four years and hit a game winning basket against the Lynchburg Elks they retire your jersey. But as great as I'm hearing as some of these guys were I wonder why I don't see their jerseys hanging in the rafters when I have the good fortune of visiting Cameron Indoor Stadium.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Yes, Chuck Dailey coached freshman b'ball and was assistant varsity coach at Duke for a few years.

As for criteria for retiring a number at Duke, being national player of the year is one of the requirements. Other awards are important, possibly being a championship team and last, but not least, GRADUATING. The criteria have been vague until recent years when some clarity was developed.

There is a difference between having one's jersey hung in the rafters and having one's number retired. Lots of jerseys in the rafters looks a bit like laundry day...

[Indoor66]

Yes, Chuck Dailey coached freshman b'ball and was assistant varsity coach at Duke for a few years.

As for criteria for retiring a number at Duke, being national player of the year is one of the requirements. Other awards are important, possibly being a championship team and last, but not least, GRADUATING. The criteria have been vague until recent years when some clarity was developed.

There is a difference between having one's jersey hung in the rafters and having one's number retired. Lots of jerseys in the rafters looks a bit like laundry day...

...and a serious light blue disease.

[blueprofessor]

I was at that game, and have always thought it Dampier who had the flu. As a matter of fact, Conley was in my National Guard unit for several years, and we used to joke about it. Maybe I am mistaken.

from http://espn.go.com/magazine/curry_20011217.html
Indeed, in that '66 NCAA semifinal tussle at College Park, Md. between the No. 1 and No.2 ranked teams, the outcome turned on which significant player -- Larry Conley of Kentucky (yeah, that Larry Conley, the TV broadcaster) or Bob Verga of Duke -- could recover more completely from similarly severe cases of the flu. Verga, the Devils' leading scorer all season, had lost five pounds the week of the championship; Conley, the 'Cats' exquisite playmaker, was running a 102 degree fever and breathing over a vaporizer the night before the game.

Came the penultimate evening, however, Verga could manage only two baskets while Conley could grab a defensive rebound, race the length of the court and score to give Kentucky a seven-point lead with a minute left. The Wildcats -- despite somebody named Pat Riley having fouled out -- clinched their victory.

[Uncle Drew]

Yes, Chuck Dailey coached freshman b'ball and was assistant varsity coach at Duke for a few years.

As for criteria for retiring a number at Duke, being national player of the year is one of the requirements. Other awards are important, possibly being a championship team and last, but not least, GRADUATING. The criteria have been vague until recent years when some clarity was developed.

There is a difference between having one's jersey hung in the rafters and having one's number retired. Lots of jerseys in the rafters looks a bit like laundry day...

Wow I had no idea Dailey had any involvement with Duke university at all. I'm about as shocked to hear that as I was to find I'm a distant, distant relative of Bill Clinton. (Don't worry I stay away from interns!)


I'm sure this has been discussed before and I understand the criteria listed by Devil in the Blue Dress. But do you guys think some of the old school players that haven't had their jersey retired and hanging in the rafters are deserving of that honor? For example Duke has had so many defensive players of the year and seeing as Coach K preaches defense like fire and brimstone does that count. (Or should it count?) If you had to list five past players from any era to retire the jersey of whom would they be?


Please don't take this as I'm wanting Duke to go back and retro retire any more jerseys. If Duke started retiring the jerseys of the towel boys like they do at UNC the honor wouldn't mean as much.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Wow I had no idea Dailey had any involvement with Duke university at all. I'm about as shocked to hear that as I was to find I'm a distant, distant relative of Bill Clinton. (Don't worry I stay away from interns!)


I'm sure this has been discussed before and I understand the criteria listed by Devil in the Blue Dress. But do you guys think some of the old school players that haven't had their jersey retired and hanging in the rafters are deserving of that honor? For example Duke has had so many defensive players of the year and seeing as Coach K preaches defense like fire and brimstone does that count. (Or should it count?) If you had to list five past players from any era to retire the jersey of whom would they be?


Please don't take this as I'm wanting Duke to go back and retro retire any more jerseys. If Duke started retiring the jerseys of the towel boys like they do at UNC the honor wouldn't mean as much.

Please remember that there's a big difference between having one's jersey hanging in the rafters and the number goes on being used season after season and having the number retired, meaning no one else wears that number again. Most of the jerseys hanging in the rafters at the Dean Dome do NOT represent numbers retired. Carolina usually honors outstanding players by hanging jerseys. Duke RETIRES the NUMBER.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Chuck Dailey was brought to Duke by Vic Bubas. Hubie Brown was also an assistant coach under Bubas. Go to your 207-08 Duke Basketball Yearbook, page 65, bottom right corner, and you'll see the three coaches together.

[Uncle Drew]

Chuck Dailey was brought to Duke by Vic Bubas. Hubie Brown was also an assistant coach under Bubas. Go to your 207-08 Duke Basketball Yearbook, page 65, bottom right corner, and you'll see the three coaches together.

Devil in the Blue Dress, as stated in other posts I was an art major at UNC-G, like I could afford a Duke year book! LOL.

I realize the significance of a hanging jersey is much different at Duke and the University of Northern Carrboro. I guess performances and championships speak for themselves. And the guys hanging in the rafters in Cameron are the truly deserving ones. But take a guy like Wojo, who was a defensive player of the year. (If I'm thinking correctly while drinking this Patron.) Nobody bled Duke blue more than that guy. Do I think his jersey deserves to be hanging up, no. But all these stories about past greats makes me wonder if some of the guys before my time aren't deserving.

[buddy]

I have seen all but Groat and Heyman play. I think they all could have played for K, because all were gamers. I agree that Verga may have had more problems with K's structure than the rest of the list (although from what I hear Heyman was no "choir boy"). Vacendak was probably the quintessential K player (even though not on your list). He reminds me of Wojo's play--although he was far more of an offensive threat.

As for the 1966 team, I think there were at least six future pros--Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Bob Verga, Bob Reidy (played for only part of a season), Mike Lewis, and Joe Kennedy. I think Tim Kolodziej also may have played, but I am not certain about that.

I have met Marin and Vacendak socially--both were very personable and gracious.

I think Verga would have been a terrific three point shooter in college. The height disadvantage would not have been as great, the line is not as far back as in the pros, and his signature shot was from the head of the key--which is three point range.

I further agree that Bubas was quite the innovator. His achievements have been diminished in retrospect due to the success of K--but in his day Bubas was quite the innovator.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Devil in the Blue Dress, as stated in other posts I was an art major at UNC-G, like I could afford a Duke year book! LOL.

I realize the significance of a hanging jersey is much different at Duke and the University of Northern Carrboro. I guess performances and championships speak for themselves. And the guys hanging in the rafters in Cameron are the truly deserving ones. But take a guy like Wojo, who was a defensive player of the year. (If I'm thinking correctly while drinking this Patron.) Nobody bled Duke blue more than that guy. Do I think his jersey deserves to be hanging up, no. But all these stories about past greats makes me wonder if some of the guys before my time aren't deserving.

Yes, there were several deserving guys especially from the Bubas era who were never accorded that sort of honor. My understanding is that after Dick Groat's number was retired, there was no real expectation or plan for other number retirements. Once the retirements resumed with Mike Gminski followed by Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry questions came up about the great duo of Art Heyman and Jeff Mullins. During Heyman's Duke playing career and for a time thereafter some with influence made it clear that they didn't want Heyman to be honored like that because he had not been a model of decorum. A feud of sorts, bad feelings continued between the decision makers and Artie for a number of years, but by 1990 all were able to rise above this conflict and Artie's number was retired. Four years later Jeff's number was retired. Whatever the standards are, they've evolved as the greats kept on enrolling and playing at Duke.

A note about Artie: he was originally recruited and agreed to play for Frank McGuire at Carolina. Vic Bubas was hired in May 1959 and began to try to recruit Artie, trying to convince him and his family that he should go to Duke. The decision was not finalized until shortly before the time frosh were to report for orientation. This change of heart for one player became part of the ill will between the two schools. Artie and Larry Brown had been friends and competitors on Long Island and planned to play on the same college team. The last minute change of plans for Artie was a starting point for the severe alienation which took over the relationship with Larry Brown. Once Artie was playing, he was subjected to ethnic name calling by fans and players. Whenever he played Carolina he was subjected to physical (being spat at in the face) and verbal abuse from other players as well as the fans. There's more to this story, but you can identify the trend which developed. It's amazing that Artie was able to play so well under such conditions. One post a few days ago wondered whether Artie could have played under Coach K. Coach Bubas's personality and style seem to be viewed as being a contrast to that of Coach K. The Bubas who was in the locker room getting Art Heyman ready to go out to play in the very physical contests prevalent in the ACC at that time was at least as passionate as Coach K. His language and and manner could match Coach K's best rant! I think Artie could have played under Coach K and flourished.

[thomas]

I have seen all but Groat and Heyman play. I think they all could have played for K, because all were gamers. I agree that Verga may have had more problems with K's structure than the rest of the list (although from what I hear Heyman was no "choir boy"). Vacendak was probably the quintessential K player (even though not on your list). He reminds me of Wojo's play--although he was far more of an offensive threat.

As for the 1966 team, I think there were at least six future pros--Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Bob Verga, Bob Reidy (played for only part of a season), Mike Lewis, and Joe Kennedy. I think Tim Kolodziej also may have played, but I am not certain about that.

I have met Marin and Vacendak socially--both were very personable and gracious.

I think Verga would have been a terrific three point shooter in college. The height disadvantage would not have been as great, the line is not as far back as in the pros, and his signature shot was from the head of the key--which is three point range.

I further agree that Bubas was quite the innovator. His achievements have been diminished in retrospect due to the success of K--but in his day Bubas was quite the innovator.

Thanks for speaking up about Vacendak! He was the epitome of competitiveness.... The coaches and sportswriters of that era knew.

[greybeard]

Of the players mentioned, the two who made the biggest impression on me were Vacendak and Marin in that order in college. Watching Marin as a pro, he was a brilliant, brilliant guy on the court, and as fierce a competitor as the game has known. Unorthodox in his movements, if the guy could use his right hand, he might have been the best Duke has produced, Grant and Shane included.

[greybeard]

Yes, there were several deserving guys especially from the Bubas era who were never accorded that sort of honor. My understanding is that after Dick Groat's number was retired, there was no real expectation or plan for other number retirements. Once the retirements resumed with Mike Gminski followed by Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry questions came up about the great duo of Art Heyman and Jeff Mullins. During Heyman's Duke playing career and for a time thereafter some with influence made it clear that they didn't want Heyman to be honored like that because he had not been a model of decorum. A feud of sorts, bad feelings continued between the decision makers and Artie for a number of years, but by 1990 all were able to rise above this conflict and Artie's number was retired. Four years later Jeff's number was retired. Whatever the standards are, they've evolved as the greats kept on enrolling and playing at Duke.

A note about Artie: he was originally recruited and agreed to play for Frank McGuire at Carolina. Vic Bubas was hired in May 1959 and began to try to recruit Artie, trying to convince him and his family that he should go to Duke. The decision was not finalized until shortly before the time frosh were to report for orientation. This change of heart for one player became part of the ill will between the two schools. Artie and Larry Brown had been friends and competitors on Long Island and planned to play on the same college team. The last minute change of plans for Artie was a starting point for the severe alienation which took over the relationship with Larry Brown. Once Artie was playing, he was subjected to ethnic name calling by fans and players. Whenever he played Carolina he was subjected to physical (being spat at in the face) and verbal abuse from other players as well as the fans. There's more to this story, but you can identify the trend which developed. It's amazing that Artie was able to play so well under such conditions. One post a few days ago wondered whether Artie could have played under Coach K. Coach Bubas's personality and style seem to be viewed as being a contrast to that of Coach K. The Bubas who was in the locker room getting Art Heyman ready to go out to play in the very physical contests prevalent in the ACC at that time was at least as passionate as Coach K. His language and and manner could match Coach K's best rant! I think Artie could have played under Coach K and flourished.

I'll have to check with my boyz, but I remember hearing that the fighting between Brown and Heyman began when they played against one another in high school. They went to neighboring schools on the Island, which were historic rivals, and I seem to remember that teammates of mine who knew Brown as their camp counselor said that the fighting began in high school.

That is not to say that your account is not otherwise entirely accurate. McQuire might well have convinced the two to go to UNC together on the strength of the success that his Brooklyn boys, Moe and Rosenberg, had had in bringing UNC its first national championship.

All other things aside, I cannot conceive that Brown and Heyman would have performed well on the same team. In fact, I can only believe that they would have duked it out in every practice, with each insisting that having the ball in his hands was the key to success. They both would have been right.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I'll have to check with my boyz, but I remember hearing that the fighting between Brown and Heyman began when they played against one another in high school. They went to neighboring schools on the Island, which were historic rivals, and I seem to remember that teammates of mine who knew Brown as their camp counselor said that the fighting began in high school.

That is not to say that your account is not otherwise entirely accurate. McQuire might well have convinced the two to go to UNC together on the strength of the success that his Brooklyn boys, Moe and Rosenberg, had had in bringing UNC its first national championship.

All other things aside, I cannot conceive that Brown and Heyman would have performed well on the same team. In fact, I can only believe that they would have duked it out in every practice, with each insisting that having the ball in his hands was the key to success. They both would have been right.

I got my information from Art Chansky. (See his book Blue Blood, pages 60-61. Chansky interviewed Artie (and many others) at length as he prepared for this book.) The word friend can convey a wide range of meanings. I intended it to mean that they were well acquainted with each other and had known and competed against each other for many years.

Did you happen to be in attendance to witness "the fight"? I understand that the freshman game (Jeff Mullins played for Duke in that one) which preceded the varsity game that night was equally exciting with five players fouling out and three more ejected for fighting. People were still talking about "the fight" when I arrived on campus two years later. The version one heard depended on who was doing the talking!

[heyman25]

Not to be picky but Coach Chuck Daley has no I. Hubie Brown was another famous assistant for Vic Bubas.When I was 9 we had Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins and Terry Murray over at my house for Thanksgiving.

[greybeard]

I got my information from Art Chansky. (See his book Blue Blood, pages 60-61. Chansky interviewed Artie (and many others) at length as he prepared for this book.) The word friend can convey a wide range of meanings. I intended it to mean that they were well acquainted with each other and had known and competed against each other for many years.

Did you happen to be in attendance to witness "the fight"? I understand that the freshman game (Jeff Mullins played for Duke in that one) which preceded the varsity game that night was equally exciting with five players fouling out and three more ejected for fighting. People were still talking about "the fight" when I arrived on campus two years later. The version one heard depended on who was doing the talking!

I was in Jr. High School at that time and was unaware that UNC or Duke existed.

Several years later, Brent Glass, a teammate of mine who was and remains quite close to Larry told me of the fight and, if I remember correctly, also told me that the two started fighting in high school.

Some interesting facts I've mentioned here before. One of the best players in my high school's history, Brian McSweeney, followed Larry to UNC and captained the team Dean's first or second year, when Billy was a sophomore. When I was a freshman, Heyman dropped by the gym at my school to chat with our coach. He shot around a bit. Good thing he could handle and was tough as nails. He couldn't shoot worth a damn as far as I could see.

When Heyman and Larry were seniors, we had an all county guard, Tommy Pearsall, who was as quick as Larry, or so "they" all said, and went on to be a three time first team Little All American at Albright College in Pa. His kid brother Steve played with me and Brent (actually me and Brent watched him) and went on to captain U of P. Two of the guys on that team went on to play for UConn and another for U of Georgia.

Tommy played in the backcourt with a guy named Bobby Gottlieb, whose son, Doug, everybody knows. Bobby played freshman ball with Lucas, Havlechek, and Knight at Ohio State, went on to coach division 1, and now runs a development program for college prospects in SoCal. His other son is an assistant at Cal.

Lots of good ball played back on the Island in those days, too bad not by me.

[Indoor66]

I was in Jr. High School at that time and was unaware that UNC or Duke existed.

Several years later, Brent Glass, a teammate of mine who was and remains quite close to Larry told me of the fight and, if I remember correctly, also told me that the two started fighting in high school.

Some interesting facts I've mentioned here before. One of the best players in my high school's history, Brian McSweeney, followed Larry to UNC and captained the team Dean's first or second year, when Billy was a sophomore. When I was a freshman, Heyman dropped by the gym at my school to chat with our coach. He shot around a bit. Good thing he could handle and was tough as nails. He couldn't shoot worth a damn as far as I could see.

When Heyman and Larry were seniors, we had an all county guard, Tommy Pearsall, who was as quick as Larry, or so "they" all said, and went on to be a three time first team Little All American at Albright College in Pa. His kid brother Steve played with me and Brent (actually me and Brent watched him) and went on to captain U of P. Two of the guys on that team went on to play for UConn and another for U of Georgia.

Tommy played in the backcourt with a guy named Bobby Gottlieb, whose son, Doug, everybody knows. Bobby played freshman ball with Lucas, Havlechek, and Knight at Ohio State, went on to coach division 1, and now runs a development program for college prospects in SoCal. His other son is an assistant at Cal.

Lots of good ball played back on the Island in those days, too bad not by me.

I watched Tom Pearsall play at Albright - and in the NCAA prelims played at Albright - in Reading, PA. He was a heck of a player. I went to the games with our Reading High School coach, Pete Carrill and with Gary Walters, now the Princeton AD who was just behind me in school.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I was in Jr. High School at that time and was unaware that UNC or Duke existed.

So when did you become aware if Duke basketball?

[greybeard]

I watched Tom Pearsall play at Albright - and in the NCAA prelims played at Albright - in Reading, PA. He was a heck of a player. I went to the games with our Reading High School coach, Pete Carrill and with Gary Walters, now the Princeton AD who was just behind me in school.

You are kidding right? The greatest basketball mind/reacher-of-the-great-game-ofall-time was your high school coach? Wait a minute while I genuflect a few times. Pete Carrill, ever since I saw that game against Patrick Ewing, I've been an idol worshiper.

Walters was a terrific guard. I mean Bradley was unbelievable in college but nobody does it alone and the guy who actually ran the show was Gary. Saw him twice, both times in defeat. My freshman year at Cornell, when a sophomore named Blaine Astin made a last second shot to put Princeton down, and the year before in the Garden, in what must have been the most unbelievable dismanteling of a giant by a little since Biblical times when Bradley dropped 48 on a Michigan team lead by its smallest starter, 6'6" Cazzie Russell. Bradley fouled out with about 4 minutes to play and Princeton up 10 or so which was alot in those days, but couldn't hold on.

Gary impressed the hell out of me is all I remember, with that high left handed dribble of his daring people to come at him to try to get it, and the ease with which he gave it up. Good scorer, if I remember, too.

Summers evenings at Hewlett High school the gym was open. The players on the team and guys who graduated had a four on four game going for most of the evening; then, towards the end, the coach would have the bigs choose up sides with whomever was around included and we'd play three baskets win until closing. I found my way up there towards the end of the summer after 8th grade and the coach invited me to tag along to a clinic given by Butch Vanbredikoff, who was then at Hofstra. Closest I came to anythin Princeton.

Saw Tommy at the gym several times. He had the ability to push hard towards the basket on either side of the lane, if the defender retreated, he'd pull up and nail it, if not the guy was dead. If he didn't blow right past him with a burst, he had a cross over on the move that was to this day unique. Say he was coming down the right side, the normal crossover would involve a slow down, and dribble somewhat backwards or close to lateral with the right foot being the first step when the ball crossed over. Not with Tommy. He would burst and not slow down a bit. The crossover would be a diagnal push to the basket, with the first step being a huge one with his left foot. He would catch with his left hand after the left planted, take an explosive and huge step with his right, then plant with is left and finish at the rim. A muscular 5'8" he was a blur and the move completely unstoppable. I believe he also would do it with the other hand and move inside out on each side too.

Stories, they are such an integral part of life. Thanks for the opportunity to tell some of mine.

Yours, Indoor, I'd love to hear more of them. I have searched the internet at times seeking an oppportunity to watch the great one, Carrill, present. Some things are priceless, son (you make me feel young so I thought I'd return the favor) and your high school experience had to be one of them.