The Mitchell Report: Steroids Run Rampant

[dukelifer]

why are you perplexed that bonds never tested positive? baseball didn't even test until recently and, what has come out recently, is that he was tipped off when the tests were coming. moreover, baseball doesn't for a lot of substances banned by other sports, including hgh. the mitchell report strongly supported the belief that the juicers in baseball switched to hgh when other substances were added a couple of years ago. marion jones never failed a test and t&f tests a lot more than baseball. avoiding a failed test is not a big deal.

do you bother to even look up baseball stats. from 2007:

arod hrs -- 54
fielder hrs -- 50

accounting for the fact that fielder is in the nl, which has better pitchers and less friendly hitters' parks, why do you think that arod is a "freak of baseball?"

yes- I know the stats- I was trying compare a player who has sustained a certain level of HR performance over time to Bonds. I suppose that Fielder's impressive jump from 28 to 50 HRs in one year should be sign of something as well.

[dukelifer]

Not at all sure what you are talking about. The effect of steroids on women swimmers is HUGE the effect on men is minimal if any may in fact be negative. What I am suggesting there is an optimal strength bulk body type and naturally males can come close to achieving this but females need steroids to come close to this optimum. I think the evidence pretty clearly shows this.

Are you saying that if the east German male swimmers on steroids had the exact same training as the non-East German swimmers that were beating them- they would not have done any better? The fact that the training was not the same- I am not sure what differences there might be- confounds this in my mind.

[tecumseh]

I am saying the East German men's team was not very good in fact no where close to what the American team was. The biggest reason for this is not training methods but just talent pool. The American swimmig had a very deep talent pool. Let's look at perhaps the last clean Olympic swim meet 1968
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimmin...ummer_Olympics
Notice all those American flags and lots of Aussie ones too. This is reflective of the talent pool in American (and Australian) swimming. Notice how the East German team is nothing.

So yeah I am saying that if the East German male swimmers had the exact same training techniques as the Americans they would not have been the same. Training is not everything at some point swimming talent enters into the equation.

[tombrady]

Wow. So Clemens absolutely denies doing anything ever. He's taking a hard stance here.

Of course, if ANYTHING resembling proof comes out, then his entire case is shot.

Everything in the Mitchell report so far has come true in terms of players acknowledging their actions. Even Pettitte. Clemens is putting all of his eggs in one basket here.

If he really was such a roid freak, I hope they all get smashed. Especially if rumors of the Fed interviewing players comes true. He can't really lie to them, can he? Theres a difference between BS-ing sportswriters and fans and BS-ing when you have jail to face if you lie...

[dukie8]

Wow. So Clemens absolutely denies doing anything ever. He's taking a hard stance here.

Of course, if ANYTHING resembling proof comes out, then his entire case is shot.

Everything in the Mitchell report so far has come true in terms of players acknowledging their actions. Even Pettitte. Clemens is putting all of his eggs in one basket here.

If he really was such a roid freak, I hope they all get smashed. Especially if rumors of the Fed interviewing players comes true. He can't really lie to them, can he? Theres a difference between BS-ing sportswriters and fans and BS-ing when you have jail to face if you lie...

bonds knows the difference...

[greybeard]

How many investigations by how many official bodies do we need into whether roids have been used in baseball? I say ban the sport and put our tax dollars to some useful purpose, like building baseball parks for billionaires so they can pay ballplayers millions but only if they take roids and then pay a former leader of the Senate, supposedly the most august body in the free world to investigate the use of roids in baseball only all his investigation does is lead to a further expenditure of tax dollars to get to the bottom of what we knew to begin with.

This has got to stop. Clemens needs to commit suicide so the Feds can on with the real business of protecting the rest of us from the terrorist threat we face, or from Michael Vick.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if they investigate Clemens I'm voting for Ross Perot; his paranoa about his daughter's wedding makes the real world look like a joke, only it ain't.

[tecumseh]

I was talking to woman the other day who should have won a bronze at the 76 Olympics. She placed behind one of those notorious East Germans, which brings up an interesting point with the Marion Jones thing....what is the statute of limitations on this. It has come out clearly and definitively that these East German women were doping. No one suffered more from doping than Shirley Babashoff, she was a female Mark Spitz and would have been one of the big stories of the 76 Olympics if not for doping, she would have had a 5 gold medal haul. Instead she was surly Shirley.

[dukie8]

I was talking to woman the other day who should have won a bronze at the 76 Olympics. She placed behind one of those notorious East Germans, which brings up an interesting point with the Marion Jones thing....what is the statute of limitations on this. It has come out clearly and definitively that these East German women were doping. No one suffered more from doping than Shirley Babashoff, she was a female Mark Spitz and would have been one of the big stories of the 76 Olympics if not for doping, she would have had a 5 gold medal haul. Instead she was surly Shirley.

statute of limitations only apply to laws -- not to rules of athletic bodies. medals therefore can be stripped or re-given out at any time. frank shorter lost the gold in the 1976 olympics to a german guy who all but has admitted that he was doped. shorter has been fighting for years to strip the german guy of the medal but thus far has not been successful.

the problem with stripping marion jones of her sydney medals is that most of the women behind her also were doped to the gills. ekaterini thanou won the silver in the 100m and was such a big druggie that she is greek and she got tossed right before the athens olympics started for missing a drug test and faking a car crash!

[tecumseh]

I meant statute of limitations in the minds of IOC, I was using the term more broadly. Clearly there seems to be one here. I mean there is pretty firm proof on the East German Olympic swim team of 1976. So it would seem you can go back to 2000 but not 1976, how about 1992?.

[dukie8]

I meant statute of limitations in the minds of IOC, I was using the term more broadly. Clearly there seems to be one here. I mean there is pretty firm proof on the East German Olympic swim team of 1976. So it would seem you can go back to 2000 but not 1976, how about 1992?.

i don't know how i could be more clear. statutes of limitations DO NOT apply to athletic govering bodies -- only state and federal laws. for you to then interpret that as "clearly" meaning one applies to olympic medals is baffling. the IOC can strip or give medals whenever it wants for whatever time period it wants to. hopefully, one day frank shorter will get his gold medal and surly shirley will get hers.

i said it earlier but i'll say it again, if baseball were serious about cleaning its mess up, it would strip all of the awards won by all of the dirty players and strip world series titles as well. it never will happen because bud is a clown.

also, if clemens really thinks that the mitchell report falsely included him, then his only correct course of action is to sue for libel. anything short of that and he, too, is a clown. i am looking forward to having him talk under oath. he may sing a very different tune then after seeing bonds facing jail time. hiding behind written statements issued by his agent couldn't be any more weak and pathetic.

[tecumseh]

Dukie8
Maybe I am speaking a foreign language. But my point is that there seems to be a statute of limitations in the minds of the IOC. I hope you are not one of those obnoxious lawyer types. Why do you assume that the person you are addressing is too dumb to understand what you are saying????The IOC was keen to strip all of the medals of Marion Jones but faced with definitive proof of steroid doping by the East German athletes they did not take action. Why??? Too far back in time perhaps. I think they have a statute of limitations in their minds. I mean if it is evidence based it is a slam dunk against some of these East German athletes so why have they not been stripped of their medals? But who knows what the IOC thinks they stripped Jim Thorpe of his medals in 1913 and then restored them in 1982. How is that for any statute of limitations.

[YmoBeThere]

I hope you are not one of those obnoxious lawyer types. Why do you assume that the person you are addressing is too dumb to understand what you are saying????

It does seem that we there are a few of those around these here parts.

[dukie8]

Dukie8
Maybe I am speaking a foreign language. But my point is that there seems to be a statute of limitations in the minds of the IOC. I hope you are not one of those obnoxious lawyer types. Why do you assume that the person you are addressing is too dumb to understand what you are saying????The IOC was keen to strip all of the medals of Marion Jones but faced with definitive proof of steroid doping by the East German athletes they did not take action. Why??? Too far back in time perhaps. I think they have a statute of limitations in their minds. I mean if it is evidence based it is a slam dunk against some of these East German athletes so why have they not been stripped of their medals? But who knows what the IOC thinks they stripped Jim Thorpe of his medals in 1913 and then restored them in 1982. How is that for any statute of limitations.

you still don't get it. i hope that you are not one of those obnoxious types that refuses to acknowledge the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. for the umptenth time, there is NO statute of limitations "in the minds of the ioc" (whatever that means). this is not brain surgery but you continue trying to convince yourself that this phenomenon exists. it does not and the concept that someone can get a medal stripped from 30 years ago is not that complicated. in fact, it is basic enough that frank shorter has spent years and countless hours fighting to get the gold medal that he should have won in 1976. thank goodness he is not going to you for advice on how to proceed with his case because you would just tell him that the statute of limitations has run out on him.

the ioc had a mountain of evidence against mj that came out in the federal courts of the united states as well as an ADMISSION from her that she took peds. what was the "definitive proof" against the east germans? did they ever admit to it and get convicted of crimes related to lying about their usage? i don't think so.

[YmoBeThere]

you still don't get it. i hope that you are not one of those obnoxious types that refuses to acknowledge the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. for the umptenth time, there is NO statute of limitations "in the minds of the ioc" (whatever that means). this is not brain surgery but you continue trying to convince yourself that this phenomenon exists. it does not and the concept that someone can get a medal stripped from 30 years ago is not that complicated. in fact, it is basic enough that frank shorter has spent years and countless hours fighting to get the gold medal that he should have won in 1976. thank goodness he is not going to you for advice on how to proceed with his case because you would just tell him that the statute of limitations has run out on him.

Perhaps you are being too literal Dukie8? Yes, in some bylaws no such limitation may exist, but should my relatives go back and seek reparations for unlawful internments?(Is there a statute of limitation on those?) Shorter can fight and fight and it may have every meaning to him. But I would hazard a guess that most of the rest of the world is unconcerned win or lose.

[tecumseh]

Thank you YmoBeThere I was trying to explain that it is possible to use a legal term outside the courtroom and not everything has to be literal and legal interpretation. But I guess if you are a hammer all the world is a nail. Actually the IOC does work under an eight year statute of limitations for doping which was suggested by the world doping organization. But some do realize that some of the previous athletes like Shirley Babashoff got the extreme short end of the stick and the USOC gave her a special award to sort of recognize this.

But we all work within a concept of "statue of limitations" for all sorts of things. In other words if corrective action is to be taken it needs to be taken within a certain time frame. If Carolina is playing Duke and the Carolina player commits a hard foul on Kyle Singler and next time down the court he throws an elbow at the guy this would be OK perhaps. But if three years later he elbows the guy and says that is for the foul in Cameron three years ago that would seem out of bounds.