Seth Davis dings our lack of true road games

[Billy Dat]

This seems like the SI saw du jour...all we need is Grant Wahl to pile on Winn and Davis

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...houghts/1.html
• Speaking of schedules, it's absolutely mystifying to me that a high-powered program like Duke, which everyone knew was going to be at least a top-15 team coming into the season, is not playing a single true nonconference road game this season. Come on, Coach K! For years, I've heard other coaches grumble that Mike Krzyzewski was playing a lot of his "road" games at regional or neutral sites -- or even at non-neutral neutral sites like Madison Square Garden (aka Cameron North), where Duke will be playing Pittsburgh later this month.

[mr. synellinden]

I don't think playing St. John's at MSG as we have a few times in the last several years would qualify as Cameron North. We happen to have them and Michigan at home this year. Next year they will be away. Playing Illinois in the United Center (ACC-Big Ten Challenge last year) isn't a true road game? Playing Temple in Philly isn't a true road game? Davidson in Charlotte?

These games are in bigger gyms because Duke sells tickets not because we are avoiding "true" road games. This is just silly blather.

Reporters tend to be lazy idiots and don't do their own independent thinking (Seth Davis is among the worst) so I expect this to be repeated in other places.

[Indoor66]

Reporters tend to be lazy idiots and don't do their own independent thinking (Seth Davis is among the worst) so I expect this to be repeated in other places.

Funny thing about Seth is that he is a Duke Grad:

"A 1992 graduate of Duke with a degree in Political Science, he also was a sports columnist for The Chronicle, the university's daily campus newspaper."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/wri...davis/archive/

[wilson]

His Duke education completely aside, I do think Davis is among the better of his ilk of journalists out there. I also think his criticism is valid. As synellinden pointed out, circumstance dictated some of our scheduling, but the fact remains that we have no road non-conference games this year (Davidson in Charlotte does not count, ever.).
IMO, road games in the ACC will be just fine as far as forcing this team to find its chops in hostile environments. Littlejohn, college park, chappaheeyah, etc...those places will do exactly what road games are supposed to do.
Mostly I view his criticism as a convenient, but not especially meaningful one. After 30 regular-season games, folks will know plenty about this team.

[AnimalFriendly]

"IMO, road games in the ACC will be just fine as far as forcing this team to find its chops in hostile environments. Littlejohn, college park, chappaheeyah, etc...those places will do exactly what road games are supposed to do."

Sorry, although Clemson currently looks like the 3rd strongest team in the league, Duke only plays them at CIS this year.

[dball]

His Duke education completely aside, I do think Davis is among the better of his ilk of journalists out there. I also think his criticism is valid. As synellinden pointed out, circumstance dictated some of our scheduling, but the fact remains that we have no road non-conference games this year (Davidson in Charlotte does not count, ever.).
IMO, road games in the ACC will be just fine as far as forcing this team to find its chops in hostile environments. Littlejohn, college park, chappaheeyah, etc...those places will do exactly what road games are supposed to do.
Mostly I view his criticism as a convenient, but not especially meaningful one. After 30 regular-season games, folks will know plenty about this team.

Nearly 18,000 people attended the Duke-Davidson game in Charlotte. That's about 3 times what the Davidson gym holds as I understand it. As has been noted before, Charlotte is not really a 'Duke' town so it doesn't really seem like a neutral site. Made for a better payday for Davidson by having it in the larger venue (and the Carolina game).

Since both schools are part of the Duke Endowment, can this ever be a 'road' game anyway?

Coach K has stated he likes to have the simulated NCAA tournament feel of playing in large places on the road. I think this is valid based on his overall record. Also, recruiting in various areas would probably be helped by having high profile games in certain cities and larger places (New York, Chicago).

Not sure where this emphasis on so-called "true" road games began. If you're not playing at home...

Agree that the ACC has enough hostile environments to fulfill all and more of any necessary "steel" this adds to the team.

[Billy Dat]

The Duke staff is very savvy at scheduling for maximum RPI strength...I am guessing that the RPI formula doesn't take into account true road vs neutral court...does anyone know for sure? Does the RPI even factor in home vs away?

If it doesn't impact the RPI, then Duke really has no motivation to schedule home and homes at home courts.

[Wander]

The Duke staff is very savvy at scheduling for maximum RPI strength...I am guessing that the RPI formula doesn't take into account true road vs neutral court...does anyone know for sure? Does the RPI even factor in home vs away?

It takes into account home, neutral, and away.

[dukie8]

Coach K has stated he likes to have the simulated NCAA tournament feel of playing in large places on the road. I think this is valid based on his overall record. Also, recruiting in various areas would probably be helped by having high profile games in certain cities and larger places (New York, Chicago).

one, who has come to duke because we played a game in their home city (or close to it)? do you really think that jwill chose duke over unc because duke played in msg when he was in high school. i think the whole "recruiting" argument is bunk. we never played in oregon and it didn't stop singler from coming.

also, playing in msg or the meadowlands are NOT even remotely close to in the ncaat. those are complete cis north venues. were you at the texas game 2 years ago? there were about 50 texas people there, including vince young who left in the middle of the game. the only thing that quieted the place down was that duke was up by 30 points! even the st john's games are well over 50% duke people. k plays up here for the alums and the alums show up in droves.

in nearly every ncaat venue, the crowd is decidedly against duke. people don't like duke and people like to root for the underdog, which, almost always is duke's opponent in the ncaat.

i will say that there has been a direct correlation with k's extreme aversion to non-conference road games and early flame-outs in the ncaat. it's impossible to prove that a true road game, win or lose, better prepares a team for march, but duke's dashes to the final 4 in the 80s and 90s, with non top seeded teams, also coincided with non-conference road games.

[dball]

one, who has come to duke because we played a game in their home city (or close to it)?

I doubt there is only one thing (though at this point it may just be the chance to play for Coach K) that influences a young person to come to Duke. But Duke has had quite a few kids from in and around NYC and Chicago. Can you prove it had NO influence? If not, why do you classify it as "bunk"?

As for having a lot of Duke fans at those games, how is that not a positive if you're considering that school?

Also, you equate the trips to the Final Four in the 80s with playing "true" road games? One could argue that the championships came after Duke began scheduling nonconf games in big arenas. It's thought that the lighting and atmosphere are so different in those arenas that a bit of experience in them prior to the NCAAs is a good thing.

[yancem]

Also, you equate the trips to the Final Four in the 80s with playing "true" road games? One could argue that the championships came after Duke began scheduling nonconf games in big arenas. It's thought that the lighting and atmosphere are so different in those arenas that a bit of experience in them prior to the NCAAs is a good thing.

Um, during the 1991 season Duke Played at #6 G-Town (L), #11 Oklahoma (W), Notre Dame (W) and #9 Arizona (L double OT)

In 1992 they played at #18 Michigan (W), Boston University (W), #22 LSU (W), and #4 UCLA (W)

In 2001 they played at #17 Temple (W), Portland (W), #3 Stanford (neutral arena? in Oakland) (L) and St.Johns (MSG) (W)

Seems like playing "true road games" worked pretty well during the championship years!

[dukie8]

I doubt there is only one thing (though at this point it may just be the chance to play for Coach K) that influences a young person to come to Duke. But Duke has had quite a few kids from in and around NYC and Chicago. Can you prove it had NO influence? If not, why do you classify it as "bunk"?

As for having a lot of Duke fans at those games, how is that not a positive if you're considering that school?

Also, you equate the trips to the Final Four in the 80s with playing "true" road games? One could argue that the championships came after Duke began scheduling nonconf games in big arenas. It's thought that the lighting and atmosphere are so different in those arenas that a bit of experience in them prior to the NCAAs is a good thing.

quite a few? jwill, hurley, l thomas and brand (that's a stretch) are the only 4 that come to mind over the past 20 years from the nyc metro area. am i missing anyone else? i don't consider 4 "quite a few." you can't prove pretty much anything that is argued on these boards so it really is a strawman to ask me to prove something subjective like that. duke is a national powerhouse in basketball and doesn't need to play in a specific venue to "help with recruiting." kids make all sorts of stupid decisions regarding where to play but i never have heard someone say that he chose a school because it played near his hometown when he was in high school. i know that k tries to schedule games near players' hometowns AFTER they enroll as a kind of bone. i definitely could see that as have some impact -- particularly when the player's family lives far away from durham -- but we are talking about playing near someone BEFORE that person commits. if you can cite some quotes from hurley or jwill saying that seeing duke play in msg when they were juniors in high school played a large role in the decisions to come to duke, i'll change my mind.

have you been to any final 4s? i have and i wouldn't exactly call the atmosphere anything to write home about. the media gets most of the seats near the court and many of the seats are filled with corporate and local types who don't care who wins. the real fans are usually far from the court. the ones i have been to have been pretty stale atmospheres. some of the good games in nyc -- like kentucky in '01, texas in '05 and st john's in '99 (?) -- have blown away the atmosphere in any final 4 i have been to.

btw, your recollection of types of games played and championships is completely off. we first won in '91 and that same year we played AT arizona in late feb and LOST. we next won in '92 and that same year we played AT ucla in late feb and won. both games were played on the road against top 10 caliber teams in their arenas and in both years we won the nc. we don't played those games anymore and have suffered multiple early round flameouts. i'm not saying that playing these games caused us to win the ncs but their recent absence and ensuing disappointing ncaat results are rather glaring.

[jjasper0729]

I kind of think it's bunk to look at one year's schedule. Before TA became coach at Michigan, Duke played homeand home with them. Duke played at Georgetown as recently as two years ago (home last year and no game with them this year). It's a little of a straw man argument because it might just so happen that this year, the home and home series are here rather than on the road. Next year, we'll be AT michigan at least.

just because they choose not to play the so-called mid-majors at home i don't have a problem with. not many of the MBB powers tend to do that. on a regular basis unless they are trying to resurrect the program. in most cases, you'll hear the talking heads say that it's playing with fire for a high major to take on a mid-major on the mid's home court.

at least that's my $0.02.

[dukie8]

I kind of think it's bunk to look at one year's schedule. Before TA became coach at Michigan, Duke played homeand home with them. Duke played at Georgetown as recently as two years ago (home last year and no game with them this year). It's a little of a straw man argument because it might just so happen that this year, the home and home series are here rather than on the road. Next year, we'll be AT michigan at least.

just because they choose not to play the so-called mid-majors at home i don't have a problem with. not many of the MBB powers tend to do that. on a regular basis unless they are trying to resurrect the program. in most cases, you'll hear the talking heads say that it's playing with fire for a high major to take on a mid-major on the mid's home court.

what is strawman of the fact that k has intentionally avoided ooc road games for many years now? duke hasn't played michigan for years so i don't know why you are bringing that up. TA goes there so k drops the series and doesn't replace it with another one. that's exactly the problem. as one of the previous posters pointed out, we used to play multiple ooc road games against ranked teams each year (as in back when we went to the final 4 nearly every year). st johns and temple have been terrible for years. relying on those games for ncaat prep work for a team ranked #1 in the country doesn't cut it.

i don't follow your mid-major point at all. which powers are you referring to? michigan st played bradley AT bradley. unc has nevada and ucsb coming to town. texas has st mary's coming to town.

[jjasper0729]

i meant at the home of the mid-majors. very few high major schools go to the home court of mid-majors (i.e. george mason coming to cameron last year, but us not going there this year).

we play uncg at the coliseum usually when we go to greensboro for the size of the building (same with davidson this year) because their "home court" is too small to handle the tickets. we restarted the michigan series this year home first. i'm pretty sure we're going up there next year. like i said, it happens to be the come to cameron year for some of these home and homes.

[ice-9]

I like the idea of going to top teams like Kansas or UCLA and having a really, really tough road game. Neutral sites in the NCAA will seem easy by comparison.

Conference road games are different because, as yancem pointed out, players over time become familiar and perhaps even comfortable with those venues. (This is less true now that the ACC no longer has a true round robin...but we are talking about playing away games at TOP teams, not middle tier teams like NC State.)

[Johnboy]

one, who has come to duke because we played a game in their home city (or close to it)? do you really think that jwill chose duke over unc because duke played in msg when he was in high school. i think the whole "recruiting" argument is bunk. we never played in oregon and it didn't stop singler from coming.

Huh. I thought Scheyer said he was going to Illinois, but since we played at the United Center, he came to Duke instead.

All joking aside, I would think that the prospect of playing at MSG, the Meadowlands, the United Center, the MCI Center and the like would be attractive to a player from the area. I don't imagine it would be decisive, but being on TV a lot and playing in big venues helps make the program more attractive. Would a hgh school prospect be more excited about playing UCLA at Pauley Pavilion or at the Staples Center? I don't know. Playing Illinois at the United Center instead of Assembly Hall? Again, I don't know.

Then again there is this: home court advantage is weak. According to Ken Pomeroy, it's not the place and it's not the fans, it's the basketball team you have to play that makes a place tough. Look - you're going on the road anyway. Is it really tougher to face the Illini at Assembly Hall instead of the United Center? I doubt it. Ohh, here's a cool Home Court Advantage study from a Duke source.

I don't know if there have been studies about how much tougher a team is at home vs. on a "neutral" court (Illinois being my favorite example - would they have beaten Arizona the other night if they'd just played at Assmbly Hall instead of in Chicago?)

The advantage of a "true" home court vs. local "neutral" court is probably minimal at best. Sorry, guys, Duke isn't that much tougher at Cameron than they are in Greensboro. If that's the case, why not play in the venues that best simulate NCAA games?

[sandinmyshoes]

I think he overstates a good point.

In most cases MSG or the Meadowlands can be a friendly environment for Duke. Against teams like Arizona or Pitt. But not so much against St. Johns or other area schools.

On the other hand, Coach K does keep pure cupcakes to a minimum. So while some schools might hold up a couple of really tough road games as shining examples of their tough schedule, while trying to draw attention away from a half dozen sacrificial lamb schools also to be found there.

I think, with Michigan back on the schedule (and maybe Georgetown?) we could see a return to an early 90s type of scheduling. I'd even accept a few more sacrificial lambs to balance the schedule, just so long as we don't go to John Thompson levels.

[feldspar]

I don't think playing St. John's at MSG as we have a few times in the last several years would qualify as Cameron North. We happen to have them and Michigan at home this year. Next year they will be away. Playing Illinois in the United Center (ACC-Big Ten Challenge last year) isn't a true road game? Playing Temple in Philly isn't a true road game? Davidson in Charlotte?

These games are in bigger gyms because Duke sells tickets not because we are avoiding "true" road games. This is just silly blather.

Reporters tend to be lazy idiots and don't do their own independent thinking (Seth Davis is among the worst) so I expect this to be repeated in other places.

You and Seth happen to define "true road game" differently. I don't think that makes him an idiot. If it does, than I guess you'd have to accept the label as well.

[tbyers11]

The interesting thing is that later in that same article he gives credit to Michigan State for playing road games at Bradley and BYU. While the Bradley game was a "true" road game by his definition, the BYU game was not played at the Marriott Center in Provo (BYU's true home court) but at the Utah Jazz arena in Salt Lake City.
He lauds Michigan State for doing the exact same thing (playing an away game not at a true homecourt but at a nearby larger venue) that he dings Duke for.

While I don't know if Seth Davis is an idiot, I do agree with Feldspar that the fact-checking in his articles has more errors than most national columns. I also feel that many of his opinions in said articles do seem to lack a bit of independent thinking compared to his other CNN/SI college basketball columnists (Luke Winn and Grant Wahl).

I do however agree with him on his overall point that Duke needs another big time road home-and-home series. I know that we play St. Johns for the NYC exposure, but I can't believe that we can't do better than Michigan and Temple for our "marquee" home-and-homes