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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Let's play guess the player!!

    Which is Ryan Kelly (freshman year) and which is TJ Power?
    7.0 mpg, 0.7rpg, 2.1ppg
    6.5mpg, 1.1rpg, 1.2ppg

    Which is Miles Plumlee (freshman year) and which is Sean Stewart?
    8.3 mpg, 3.2rpg, 2.6ppg
    6.9mpg, 1.4rpg, 1.8ppg

    Which is Brian Davis (freshman year) and which is Jaden Schutt?
    8.4 mpg, 1.1rpg, 2.3ppg
    6.9mpg, 1.1rpg, 2.1ppg
    College basketball's landscape has changed so much that this comparison brings very little to the table. Kelly, MP1, and Davis faced a choice of competing for minutes as sophomores at Duke or going elsewhere and getting zero minutes. Kelly and MP1 also would have been transferring away from Coach K (K wasn't quite K yet when Davis was a freshman). MP1 was also looking at playing with his brother the following season. Also MP1 was ranked 81 while Sean was a top 25 recruit.

    Jon and K might have given the same pitch to their rising sophomores, but the deliverer and the environment were vastly different. Many are poo-pooing those two facts.

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    College basketball's landscape has changed so much that this comparison brings very little to the table. Kelly, MP1, and Davis faced a choice of competing for minutes as sophomores at Duke or going elsewhere and getting zero minutes. Kelly and MP1 also would have been transferring away from Coach K (K wasn't quite K yet when Davis was a freshman). MP1 was also looking at playing with his brother the following season. Also MP1 was ranked 81 while Sean was a top 25 recruit.

    Jon and K might have given the same pitch to their rising sophomores, but the deliverer and the environment were vastly different. Many are poo-pooing those two facts.
    Oh, to be clear I was not making this comparison as a way of saying TJ and Sean should have stayed. I 100% understand both of their decisions to leave and I suspect I might have made the same decision in their shoes. I was just giving some numbers to back up the notion that player development happens at Duke, even among guys who barely see the floor as freshmen.
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Oh, to be clear I was not making this comparison as a way of saying TJ and Sean should have stayed. I 100% understand both of their decisions to leave and I suspect I might have made the same decision in their shoes. I was just giving some numbers to back up the notion that player development happens at Duke, even among guys who barely see the floor as freshmen.
    I agree completely. Player movement (at least the first no-sit transfer) is a good thing but it does make it more challenging to see player development happen at one school. I get why Jon made the trades but I have a feeling upperclassmen TJ and Sean are going to be really good players.

  4. #204
    There is being forced out literally, which is having your scholarship pulled. There is also being forced out effectively, which is getting heavily recruited over via freshmen or the portal. I don't think you can look at Jon bringing in a 6 person freshman class with the talent this class has and also putting feelers out into the portal as anything other than effectively forcing out some of our players, particularly Top 25 recruits.

    Practice is where you earn your minutes and it's also where you develop. Games may not be where you typically earn your minutes outside of rare cases, but they are still a place where you develop. If I'm a player looking at another year of likely riding the pine at Duke vs starting at another P5 school, maybe even a traditionally top-half P5/ACC school, transferring is a no brainer. Arguably, starting at a good mid-major is better for a player than sitting on the bench at Duke as much as we all want to believe that the caliber of coaching/teammates is better enough.

    If we expect our coaches to not promise playtime and make our players earn it, we are also almost inherently expecting our coaches to recruit over and effectively force out recruits. This is particularly true in the era of NIL and the portal. Not having to sit out a year makes it easier for players to leave yes, but it also makes it easier for coaches to bring in an immediately impactful player. Jon's goal, and our expectations, is a National Championship.

    Also "The Brotherhood" as a name has always been marketing, it's a very recent label that is pushed strongly on our social media. However, catchy name or not, the network and connections currently branded as "The Brotherhood" will always exists and be a powerful Duke benefit regardless of any transferring in/out that occurs year to year.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Apr 2023
    Location
    Bozeman, MT and Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Another false equivalency. It's a team sport, with 10 or 12 players vying for 200 minutes. Some are more ready than others, some may have to wait patiently to be in a meaningful rotation for those 200 minutes. Neither Sean nor TJ were ready for significant minutes this past year but for fouls and injuries. Jon would have welcomed them to stay and develop this coming season but more in practice than on the court, which was a role neither apparently wanted.

    -jk
    Equivalent and Analogous mean two separate things. Of course they're not equivalent but I think the analogy is solid.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    There is being forced out literally, which is having your scholarship pulled. There is also being forced out effectively, which is getting heavily recruited over via freshmen or the portal. I don't think you can look at Jon bringing in a 6 person freshman class with the talent this class has and also putting feelers out into the portal as anything other than effectively forcing out some of our players, particularly Top 25 recruits.

    Practice is where you earn your minutes and it's also where you develop. Games may not be where you typically earn your minutes outside of rare cases, but they are still a place where you develop. If I'm a player looking at another year of likely riding the pine at Duke vs starting at another P5 school, maybe even a traditionally top-half P5/ACC school, transferring is a no brainer. Arguably, starting at a good mid-major is better for a player than sitting on the bench at Duke as much as we all want to believe that the caliber of coaching/teammates is better enough.

    If we expect our coaches to not promise playtime and make our players earn it, we are also almost inherently expecting our coaches to recruit over and effectively force out recruits. This is particularly true in the era of NIL and the portal. Not having to sit out a year makes it easier for players to leave yes, but it also makes it easier for coaches to bring in an immediately impactful player. Jon's goal, and our expectations, is a National Championship.

    Also "The Brotherhood" as a name has always been marketing, it's a very recent label that is pushed strongly on our social media. However, catchy name or not, the network and connections currently branded as "The Brotherhood" will always exists and be a powerful Duke benefit regardless of any transferring in/out that occurs year to year.
    by your own completely new re-definition of the phrase, sure, your argument is coherent. society in general these days has "feelings" and anything that doesn't center themselves is bad/wrong/"force". Duke's transfers out wanted more playing time than they felt like they were going to get/deserved. Ok, great, best of luck. They did not want to either compete for the role to have more minutes than players who had not even accepted scholarships yet, or wait until next year to have a better shot at more playing time at Duke. The idea that they were foreced out is insipid and does not need for we as fans to perform mental gymnastics to justify that idea.

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    There is being forced out literally, which is having your scholarship pulled. There is also being forced out effectively, which is getting heavily recruited over via freshmen or the portal. I don't think you can look at Jon bringing in a 6 person freshman class with the talent this class has and also putting feelers out into the portal as anything other than effectively forcing out some of our players, particularly Top 25 recruits.
    Let's slow this roll a little. Not meaning to pick on rifraf, as this has been mentioned a couple times now by different people. The six freshmen were recruited before last season even started. So what did we know then? Young was out of eligibility and gone. Spencer Hubbard - who earned a scholarship, but started as a walk-on - was graduating and almost certainly moving on. Everyone was amazed that Flip, Proctor, Roach, and Mitchell ALL decided to "run it back" before LAST season. We certainly expected two or even three of those four to get to the draft by the end of this season. (We were wrong, but hey, sometimes that happens.) But in any case, whether Jeremy went pro or not, he was almost certainly leaving, due to his impending graduation. Blakes was likely known by the staff to be fast-tracking classes, graduating early, and moving on, even if us fans were not aware of it. That's already six roster openings, and we haven't even taken into account any of last year's four freshman blowing up and hitting the draft, as McCain obviously actually succeeded in doing.

    If you want to get upset about the inbound portal guys, fine, I can see that point of view. But at the time he made his offers to the incoming freshmen, Jon had every reason to believe he'd have six open roster spots to slot them into this season. I think we should limit complaints to the transfers, and not dump the incoming class into that same bucket.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    by your own completely new re-definition of the phrase, sure, your argument is coherent. society in general these days has "feelings" and anything that doesn't center themselves is bad/wrong/"force". Duke's transfers out wanted more playing time than they felt like they were going to get/deserved. Ok, great, best of luck. They did not want to either compete for the role to have more minutes than players who had not even accepted scholarships yet, or wait until next year to have a better shot at more playing time at Duke. The idea that they were foreced out is insipid and does not need for we as fans to perform mental gymnastics to justify that idea.
    I think that pretending that recruiting over someone (freshman/transfer), or even just filling the roster with numerous players at your position, isn't a form of forcing out is its own mental gymnastics. Do we really think Proctor or Flagg are being told they have to "compete for minutes"? We know that K handed the PG keys to Hurley before practice, K and other players have said that's what happened. We all seem to believe that Jon and K before him had very clear and very candid conversations with players about their skills, development, and future.

    This has nothing to do feelings or literal force or a weird complaint about modern society. If I, a Top 25 recruit who barely scratched game time in my first year, come to my coach and honestly say "My goals are to start and play 20+ minutes a game of college basketball, ideally for Duke" and my coach honestly expresses my chances given the roster that coach has developed, it's completely reasonable to say that in order to achieve my goals I am forced to look elsewhere.

    Words can have multiple definitions, particularly colloquially, and I'm pretty comfortable saying I didn't "completely redefine the phrase" by putting an "effectively" qualifier in front of this definition: "force verb 3. to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity". Roach has a shot at the NBA but not playing the position he would have to play on this particular roster. Totally reasonable to say that he's forced to look elsewhere if he wants a shot at his goal.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    If you want to get upset about the inbound portal guys, fine, I can see that point of view. But at the time he made his offers to the incoming freshmen, Jon had every reason to believe he'd have six open roster spots to slot them into this season. I think we should limit complaints to the transfers, and not dump the incoming class into that same bucket.
    I think that's totally fair, though I think given Duke's recent history (stretching into K) and the high caliber of our recruiting classes it's fair to believe and for our current players to believe that the Freshman arriving to campus are expecting/likely to see significant minutes. Even if there were 6 open slots, I think recruiting 6 players of this caliber sends a signal at odds with a "put your time in and develop" philosophy. If you're a Top 25 recruit with NBA aspirations you've got 4-5 years to make that happen and seeing a huge star class come in after spending a year on the bench is a huge risk.

    Not that I think Jon shouldn't do it, I just think as fans we're wearing rose colored glasses by acting like "hey you can always compete for minutes you're welcome to stay" is effectively any different to these Top 25 recruits with NBA aspirations.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    by your own completely new re-definition of the phrase, sure, your argument is coherent. society in general these days has "feelings" and anything that doesn't center themselves is bad/wrong/"force". Duke's transfers out wanted more playing time than they felt like they were going to get/deserved. Ok, great, best of luck. They did not want to either compete for the role to have more minutes than players who had not even accepted scholarships yet, or wait until next year to have a better shot at more playing time at Duke. The idea that they were foreced out is insipid and does not need for we as fans to perform mental gymnastics to justify that idea.
    I am listening to "Why We're Polarized" by Ezra Klein during my commute. I am still deciding whether it is a good book or not, but it is interesting. I thought of the book while reading your post because I have often thought the posters who deny that Sean and TJ were performing mental gymnastics or hanging on technicalities. I have always enjoyed your posts and was struck by how you and I basically took the same path to a vastly different result. I do not agree with your opinion but I respect it and acknowledge that my opinion may be wrong.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    I do not agree with your opinion but I respect it and acknowledge that my opinion may be wrong.
    I am very confused. This is an internet message board. There is no room for respectful disagreements, much less admitting that you might be wrong. Not sure what’s going on at all. It’s like dogs and cats living together…

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by JayZee View Post
    I am very confused. This is an internet message board. There is no room for respectful disagreements, much less admitting that you might be wrong. Not sure what’s going on at all. It’s like dogs and cats living together…
    Yeah. I thought we were supposed to make them fight to the death over a disagreement.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I think that pretending that recruiting over someone (freshman/transfer), or even just filling the roster with numerous players at your position, isn't a form of forcing out is its own mental gymnastics. Do we really think Proctor or Flagg are being told they have to "compete for minutes"? We know that K handed the PG keys to Hurley before practice, K and other players have said that's what happened. We all seem to believe that Jon and K before him had very clear and very candid conversations with players about their skills, development, and future.

    This has nothing to do feelings or literal force or a weird complaint about modern society. If I, a Top 25 recruit who barely scratched game time in my first year, come to my coach and honestly say "My goals are to start and play 20+ minutes a game of college basketball, ideally for Duke" and my coach honestly expresses my chances given the roster that coach has developed, it's completely reasonable to say that in order to achieve my goals I am forced to look elsewhere.

    Words can have multiple definitions, particularly colloquially, and I'm pretty comfortable saying I didn't "completely redefine the phrase" by putting an "effectively" qualifier in front of this definition: "force verb 3. to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity". Roach has a shot at the NBA but not playing the position he would have to play on this particular roster. Totally reasonable to say that he's forced to look elsewhere if he wants a shot at his goal.
    It's been very well established, not just by coaches, but from firsthand accounts from prominent Duke players and ESPN pundits that played at Duke, that no recruit was ever guaranteed minutes or even position. This has been well documented under Coach K, to which, Coach S was notably a highly effective recruiter as assistant coach for Coach K starting in about 2013. I doubt Coach S was out there spinning yarns promising players time and positions behind Coach K's back. I also doubt Coach S deviates from that approach, but in contrast to your statement above, I would take the position that none of the coaching staff is saying (to the recruit), "you WON'T have to compete for playing time." Regarding Hurley, yes Laettner noted he gave Hurley hell because he was starting as a freshmen and wanted to pressure test him, which is by all accounts true. No where in that story was it said or even inferred that Hurley was promised minutes. It happened, that Hurley was the best pure point guard in Duke's history.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by AZLA View Post
    Regarding Hurley, yes Laettner noted he gave Hurley hell because he was starting as a freshmen and wanted to pressure test him, which is by all accounts true. No where in that story was it said or even inferred that Hurley was promised minutes. It happened, that Hurley was the best pure point guard in Duke's history.
    I am not subscribed to which ever ESPN streaming service has "I Hate Christian Laettner" on it. I remember Laettner's accounting of that time being that K introduced Hurley as the starting point guard ahead of practice, which is part of what pissed Laettner off so much. Granted my memory isn't perfect, and it's possible Laettner was spinning it up a bit.

    Either way, my point isn't all that different. Any belief in our coaches having clear, candid, and transparent conversations with our players (which I certainly believe they do) will come with it candid conversations about a player's chances at playtime and what they have to do to earn it.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I think that pretending that recruiting over someone (freshman/transfer), or even just filling the roster with numerous players at your position, isn't a form of forcing out is its own mental gymnastics. Do we really think Proctor or Flagg are being told they have to "compete for minutes"? We know that K handed the PG keys to Hurley before practice, K and other players have said that's what happened. We all seem to believe that Jon and K before him had very clear and very candid conversations with players about their skills, development, and future.

    This has nothing to do feelings or literal force or a weird complaint about modern society. If I, a Top 25 recruit who barely scratched game time in my first year, come to my coach and honestly say "My goals are to start and play 20+ minutes a game of college basketball, ideally for Duke" and my coach honestly expresses my chances given the roster that coach has developed, it's completely reasonable to say that in order to achieve my goals I am forced to look elsewhere.

    Words can have multiple definitions, particularly colloquially, and I'm pretty comfortable saying I didn't "completely redefine the phrase" by putting an "effectively" qualifier in front of this definition: "force verb 3. to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity". Roach has a shot at the NBA but not playing the position he would have to play on this particular roster. Totally reasonable to say that he's forced to look elsewhere if he wants a shot at his goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    I am listening to "Why We're Polarized" by Ezra Klein during my commute. I am still deciding whether it is a good book or not, but it is interesting. I thought of the book while reading your post because I have often thought the posters who deny that Sean and TJ were performing mental gymnastics or hanging on technicalities. I have always enjoyed your posts and was struck by how you and I basically took the same path to a vastly different result. I do not agree with your opinion but I respect it and acknowledge that my opinion may be wrong.
    Let me share why i care at all about using the term "forced out" in this discussion about players leaving via the portal. Usually i wouldn't care because these are young men i don't know making decisions for reasons i don't know but can guess at. However, DBR has a prohibition on rumor mongering.
    Being "forced out" carries the weight of the word force, not choice. In a work, or in this case sports, setting, being forced out would be akin to being fired, having your scholarship removed, or some other act in which the one who is out has no choice in whether they return or not.
    Most of this discussion got started by Jason Evans's stellar work cultivating inside connections to the program and quoting a parent of a player (whom JE correctly did not identify) saying they felt forced out (hence my original dig at "feelings"). Jason did not quote this person as saying they had actually been forced out, ie., having their scholarship revoked, and as far as I know JE is the only source of insight into the decisions these players made. Saying that someone on the Duke team has been "forced out" implies that the sayer of said phrase has some sort of inside knowledge that they are not sharing or, more likely, just rumor mongering.
    As i said before, these departing players wanted more PT than they thought that they were likely to get at Duke, per their own intuition or by talking it out with Jon, and decided to play elsewhere. I'm fine with that, although i wish some of them had made different decisions. They made a decision, they had a choice. They were not forced out, and saying they were is rumor mongering.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Yeah. I thought we were supposed to make them fight to the death over a disagreement.
    That's on ESPN.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    That's on ESPN.
    Cue Lunardi showing up with an “update” on the bracket for the fight that will happen at some point.

    Y’all I got a notification about Lunardi updating his bracket *yesterday*. Can we force HIM out?

  18. #218
    Yeah, "forced out" is a loaded term. I like "squeezed for playing time".

    In all this understandable disappointment over Stewart and Power, let's not forget that they had two classmates that worked out pretty well - McCain and Foster. Also, I think it was Flagg's reclassification that really set in motion the series of events that led to Stewart and Power's departure.

    So now we have four more guys coming along with similar prospects to the four above - Evans, K2, Ngongba, Harris. What will their futures look like? I'm hoping there's a plan and a path where fewer than half transfer out after this season. 0-1 transfers. Time will tell...

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Cue Lunardi showing up with an “update” on the bracket for the fight that will happen at some point.

    Y’all I got a notification about Lunardi updating his bracket *yesterday*. Can we force HIM out?
    Now that's a petition I'll sign.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    As i said before, these departing players wanted more PT than they thought that they were likely to get at Duke, per their own intuition or by talking it out with Jon, and decided to play elsewhere. I'm fine with that, although i wish some of them had made different decisions. They made a decision, they had a choice..
    Playing at Duke (and other top tier schools) is close (and getting closer) to playing in the NBA than maybe some of us want to admit. And that includes the intense intra-team competition to earn playing time.

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