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  1. #221
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    Yeah, "forced out" is a loaded term. I like "squeezed for playing time".

    In all this understandable disappointment over Stewart and Power, let's not forget that they had two classmates that worked out pretty well - McCain and Foster. Also, I think it was Flagg's reclassification that really set in motion the series of events that led to Stewart and Power's departure.

    So now we have four more guys coming along with similar prospects to the four above - Evans, K2, Ngongba, Harris. What will their futures look like? I'm hoping there's a plan and a path where fewer than half transfer out after this season. 0-1 transfers. Time will tell...
    Whether "forced" or "squeezed" - or whichever action verb one chooses - neither Sean nor TJ were ready for starter's minutes this past season. And based on Jon's moves, he doesn't expect them to be ready for starter's minutes on a top ten team this coming season, either.

    I'd have loved to see them stick around to get starter's minutes as upperclassmen, alas.

    -jk

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    That's on ESPN.
    *The Ocho

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I think that's totally fair, though I think given Duke's recent history (stretching into K) and the high caliber of our recruiting classes it's fair to believe and for our current players to believe that the Freshman arriving to campus are expecting/likely to see significant minutes. Even if there were 6 open slots, I think recruiting 6 players of this caliber sends a signal at odds with a "put your time in and develop" philosophy. If you're a Top 25 recruit with NBA aspirations you've got 4-5 years to make that happen and seeing a huge star class come in after spending a year on the bench is a huge risk.

    Not that I think Jon shouldn't do it, I just think as fans we're wearing rose colored glasses by acting like "hey you can always compete for minutes you're welcome to stay" is effectively any different to these Top 25 recruits with NBA aspirations.
    Rifraf, your vocabulary is too limited. You are trying to push everything thought the "forcing out" keyhole, and then criticizing folks who don't sign up to your POV. There is a bit more subtlety at play -- we brought in players who would likely better than Power and Stewart next season because we want to win. The two were welcome to stay on the team, develop, earn minutes and maybe play a lot if there are injuries (heavens!). They weren't fired, told to look elsewhere, or "forced out." They chose to leave and get a better prospect of playing time in 2025.

    Now, if this is a bad situation or look for Duke, does anyone really think that protecting PT for Sean and TJ, who were not overly impressive in 2024, is more important that winning games?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Let me share why i care at all about using the term "forced out" in this discussion about players leaving via the portal. Usually i wouldn't care because these are young men i don't know making decisions for reasons i don't know but can guess at. However, DBR has a prohibition on rumor mongering.
    Being "forced out" carries the weight of the word force, not choice. In a work, or in this case sports, setting, being forced out would be akin to being fired, having your scholarship removed, or some other act in which the one who is out has no choice in whether they return or not.
    Most of this discussion got started by Jason Evans's stellar work cultivating inside connections to the program and quoting a parent of a player (whom JE correctly did not identify) saying they felt forced out (hence my original dig at "feelings"). Jason did not quote this person as saying they had actually been forced out, ie., having their scholarship revoked, and as far as I know JE is the only source of insight into the decisions these players made. Saying that someone on the Duke team has been "forced out" implies that the sayer of said phrase has some sort of inside knowledge that they are not sharing or, more likely, just rumor mongering.
    As i said before, these departing players wanted more PT than they thought that they were likely to get at Duke, per their own intuition or by talking it out with Jon, and decided to play elsewhere. I'm fine with that, although i wish some of them had made different decisions. They made a decision, they had a choice. They were not forced out, and saying they were is rumor mongering.
    I agree. While some observers may find the distinction thin, I believe there is a material -- and perhaps more importantly in this context, moral -- difference in being "forced out" and being "forced to choose." IMO, this is analogous to the situation of young associate lawyers we recruited to join our law firm. At some point, they may desire and feel they deserve a promotion to partner status or at least an increase in their case and client responsibilities (as well as their compensation); but as often happens, they are told that while their service is valued and we'd like them to continue developing experience with the opportunity for such advancement at the next round of reviews, or if an opening becomes available in the meantime, we don't anticipate much chance for them to move up in the immediate future. In those cases, they're not being forced out, but are left with a personal choice: Stay and keep working towards their goals in our firm, or shop around for another firm in which they believe quicker advancement is a more realistic possibility.

    Likewise, when a player who wants a starting position or a more prominent role on the team is met with a coach's assessment that the prospects for achieving those goals do not presently appear bright, but is also assured that he is welcome to remain on the team and keep working towards more playing time -- which can be earned through competition or if an unexpected opening occurs -- that player isn't being effectively "forced out." He's only being forced to make a personal choice. To characterize that situation as one in which the coach can be accused of effectively "forcing out" the player would IMO wrongfully impugn the coach for being honest with the player and fulfilling his responsibility to the school, to the other players and their families, and to the fans -- i.e., to put those players on the floor who will be best qualified by talent and experience to make the team competitive at the highest level possible.

    For better or worse, associate lawyers and underclass players alike must contend with the cruel reality of a world in which they are forever competing against peers for limited advancement opportunities. Complaints about being "recruited over" do not, IMO, merit sympathy. I'm disappointed that some Duke players opted to enter the portal and transfer, rather than remain a part of the team. But I would be far more disappointed, and concerned, if I learned either that Coach Scheyer was less than honest with those players, or that he passed on an opportunity to improve the competitive potential of the team for the purpose of carving out a special role for any individual player.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Rifraf, your vocabulary is too limited. You are trying to push everything thought the "forcing out" keyhole, and then criticizing folks who don't sign up to your POV. There is a bit more subtlety at play -- we brought in players who would likely better than Power and Stewart next season because we want to win. The two were welcome to stay on the team, develop, earn minutes and maybe play a lot if there are injuries (heavens!). They weren't fired, told to look elsewhere, or "forced out." They chose to leave and get a better prospect of playing time in 2025.

    Now, if this is a bad situation or look for Duke, does anyone really think that protecting PT for Sean and TJ, who were not overly impressive in 2024, is more important that winning games?
    I think this gets at the possible irony inherent in the players' decisions. Ostensibly, players come do Duke because, among other reasons, they want to play for one of the best programs in the nation, and one that consistently strives for excellence. A key to excellence is putting players on the court who are talented enough, and have developed their games enough, to allow us to compete for championships.

    If a player is upset at the fact that Scheyer brings in someone else at their position because he believes, as their coach, that they are not yet at that level, then they seemingly would rather have the team settle for less than excellence in order for them to have a starting position, than to come off the bench for an elite team. It's as if the script flips once they're on board: initially they came because they wanted to become great players, but once they're here they feel that, because they wear the jersey, they see themselves as already being the player they wanted to become.

    I have no idea what was going on in the heads of these kids when they decided to pursue playing time at other schools. But I do wonder if this process plays a part in it. I often think all the way back to the '98 team, and Avery leaving early along with Brand and Maggette, when he seemed clearly not ready, but seemed to simply assume that he was NBA ready by association. One more year in Durham I still think could have changed his entire career. I hope, for their own sake, guys like Powers and Stewart are making the right decision for themselves, but I have a hard time not believing that with a bit more patience, they would have almost certainly been starters by their senior years, if not as juniors, with solid NBA careers ahead of them. Not to mentions all of the benefits that the brotherhood has to offer.

  6. #226
    One other thing that I've been thinking about: If in fact some of these guys have left in part because, after coaching them for a year, Scheyer simply was up front with them and told them that they would not be in the starting lineup this coming season...well, then I couldn't be more proud to have him as our coach. I imaging that there are myriad coaches out there who would have hedged the heck out of that question simply in hopes of keeping guys on the roster. If we lost players because our coach was honest with them, then so be it. I wouldn't have it any other way.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by fgb View Post
    One other thing that I've been thinking about: If in fact some of these guys have left in part because, after coaching them for a year, Scheyer simply was up front with them and told them that they would not be in the starting lineup this coming season...well, then I couldn't be more proud to have him as our coach. I imaging that there are myriad coaches out there who would have hedged the heck out of that question simply in hopes of keeping guys on the roster. If we lost players because our coach was honest with them, then so be it. I wouldn't have it any other way.
    I mean, there's a thousand different perspectives on this topic. None of why have much substance in the way of facts and information.

    If you want to use this situation to be proud of Scheyer or ro excoriate him, that's your right.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by AGDukesky View Post
    *The Ocho
    Or the ouch.

  9. #229
    To paraphrase Comedy Agent Barry Katz,
    to earn PT you have to be "Undeniable".

    If you aren't, then good luck in the future and
    next play...er.

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