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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    It's only a matter of time before schools like Texas and Oklahoma that have lots of Oil money alums and Arkansas and Kentucky that have sports crazed alums with deep pockets will become the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox and Mets of the NCAA. I'm all for these kids making money off their own image, but this is getting a bit crazy.
    Perhaps there should be some talk about salary caps? Agreed this is starting to feel crazy that there are schools out there who will be buying up players while less resourced schools can only watch... I suppose it's finally time to drop any pretense that there is academics involved in college basketball (or football).

  2. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    Sure, there will always be value in the Duke brand. But the problem is that this is now an arms race. Other schools and ultra rich alums will be racing to keep up with AR, Duke included. I've read StJohns also has a huge bankroll from a single alum.

    This is all so predictable. The best funded NIL collectives will field the best teams. It's no different than in pro sports where the massive media markets like LA and NY would dominate the sport (even more) without things like the draft, rookie contracts, salary caps, etc to maintain a level playing field. None of that exists in college basketball. It would be hilarious if it weren't destroying the sport I love.
    And more frustratingly, it has been so predictable for maybe a decade or whenever the Pay-The-Players debate started in earnest. Many of us brought this up (myself included) but were met with "it doesn't matter, power to the players" or "it's not going to be that bad" or "let the free market decide" amongst other retorts.

    Generally speaking, when given enough time humans descend to whatever depths in the absence of rules/laws/oversight/etc. Not because we are all terrible people. But because it only takes one to ruin it for everyone. IMO that's exactly the sort of thing that was predictable here and we're seeing it with a guy like Jerry Jones who, frankly, was probably a predictable culprit in hindsight (half joking).

    - Chillin

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by FastBreak View Post
    Perhaps there should be some talk about salary caps? Agreed this is starting to feel crazy that there are schools out there who will be buying up players while less resourced schools can only watch... I suppose it's finally time to drop any pretense that there is academics involved in college basketball (or football).
    I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it the only way to get this through the courts IMO is through collective bargaining. Which will require the schools/NCAA acknowledging them as professionals (which they should). Unfortunately, I think this is where B1G/SEC etc have the biggest leverage in creating their super conferences.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by FastBreak View Post
    Perhaps there should be some talk about salary caps? Agreed this is starting to feel crazy that there are schools out there who will be buying up players while less resourced schools can only watch... I suppose it's finally time to drop any pretense that there is academics involved in college basketball (or football).
    Salary caps usually come about as the result of collective bargaining. Currently there is no incentive for the blue bloods (Duke included) to agree to something like that - why would we?

    And with salary caps come salary dumps - gotta get under the cap? Maybe a scholarship player has to go in order to make that happen, whether the player wants to change schools or not.

    This canít be fixed. Itís a professional sport with universal unrestricted free agency every year, with a perfunctory connection to academics. Attempts to regulate it will further erode that already mostly fictional idea that these kids are college students enrolled in the university.

  5. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it the only way to get this through the courts IMO is through collective bargaining. Which will require the schools/NCAA acknowledging them as professionals (which they should). Unfortunately, I think this is where B1G/SEC etc have the biggest leverage in creating their super conferences.
    Truthfully, I'm now of the opinion to LET the the Top 30/40/50 (whatever the number is) spin off and have their Semi-Pro conference.
    They can beat each others brains in till their hearts content..

    BUT - They are excluded from playing the rest of everybody else. I'm betting there are more "fans and alums of everybody else" .

  6. #686
    Dont know if anyone listens to the Sleepers Podcast with Carter Elliott and Greg Waddell, but on their podcast, their take on the Roach situation was essentially Scheyer chose Proctor and Foster over Roach, that Scheyer chose his backcourt. I've listened to many of these guys podcasts, I believe they're both Michigan State alum/fans, so that's their backcourt. I have no earthly idea how connected they are in terms of receiving info/intel from teams.

    I'm just curious what the opinions of the board is here in regards to this take? It's officially the off-season, so I thought it might be a good discussion point. Did Scheyer choose Proctor/Foster and elect to try and fill Roach's output through the portal/incoming freshmen?

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by wilko View Post
    Truthfully, I'm now of the opinion to LET the the Top 30/40/50 (whatever the number is) spin off and have their Semi-Pro conference.
    They can beat each others brains in till their hearts content..

    BUT - They are excluded from playing the rest of everybody else. I'm betting there are more "fans and alums of everybody else" .
    I feel like ND could be used as an example. I see no reason why football can't be spun off into a couple super conferences for everyone who wants to, and the rest of the sports can return to regional rivalries and conferences. The answer of course, is "money", and I understand that there will be a net drain on resources for most schools (Duke included) but I'd rather that than feel like I'm watching the heat death of college sports.

    I remember watching Duke Women's club rugby when I was a student, as a high school friend played on Elon's team. Minimal resources, played in a field near a back parking lot, but they played. Kids like sports, kids will play sports without billion dollar tv contracts. Could it change the landscape? Sure. But even with a doomsday scenario where even Duke basketball falls as a casualty to spun-off football conferences I'd still rather pay Duke for Duke+ streaming than feel like I'm contributing to Duke Men's Baseball having to fly to California for "conference" games by paying ESPN.

  8. #688
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is offline Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by bshrader View Post
    Dont know if anyone listens to the Sleepers Podcast with Carter Elliott and Greg Waddell, but on their podcast, their take on the Roach situation was essentially Scheyer chose Proctor and Foster over Roach, that Scheyer chose his backcourt. I've listened to many of these guys podcasts, I believe they're both Michigan State alum/fans, so that's their backcourt. I have no earthly idea how connected they are in terms of receiving info/intel from teams.

    I'm just curious what the opinions of the board is here in regards to this take? It's officially the off-season, so I thought it might be a good discussion point. Did Scheyer choose Proctor/Foster and elect to try and fill Roach's output through the portal/incoming freshmen?
    I don't think we'll ever know for certain, but I highly doubt two MSU alums/fans are the ones who are going to have the inside scoop, haha.

    I think operating by Occam's razor is the way to go here. All evidence is that Jon loves Jeremy and Jeremy loves Jon. Jeremy's role on this past year's team, as a "combo guard" that plays primarily off the ball, was open on next year's team as well, but given that all signs pointed to Tyrese and/or Caleb returning there would be limited minutes for Jeremy to play the traditional point guard role. For Jeremy to maximize his chances of grinding it out and making it into the NBA, he likely needs to showcase and develop point guard skills, and he should have more of an opportunity to do that elsewhere than at Duke.

    I'm going to stick with this analogy: Jeremy got his Bachelor's degree in Basketball from Duke University, but wanted to pursue his Master's in "Advanced Point Guard Skills". Duke's only Master's opening was in "Advanced Combo Guard Skills", so Jeremy is choosing to pursue his graduate studies at another institution... just like any other student might do in an analogous scenario.

    Again, I don't know the above to be the case. But given what we do know it's a much more likely scenario than what you described. I don't think Jon Scheyer would choose anyone over Jeremy Roach if it were that straightforward of a situation.
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  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by bshrader View Post
    Dont know if anyone listens to the Sleepers Podcast with Carter Elliott and Greg Waddell, but on their podcast, their take on the Roach situation was essentially Scheyer chose Proctor and Foster over Roach, that Scheyer chose his backcourt. I've listened to many of these guys podcasts, I believe they're both Michigan State alum/fans, so that's their backcourt. I have no earthly idea how connected they are in terms of receiving info/intel from teams.

    I'm just curious what the opinions of the board is here in regards to this take? It's officially the off-season, so I thought it might be a good discussion point. Did Scheyer choose Proctor/Foster and elect to try and fill Roach's output through the portal/incoming freshmen?
    Brendan Marks basically said the same thing, fwiw.

  10. #690
    Join Date
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    Makes Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan_Wilson View Post
    Brendan Marks basically said the same thing, fwiw.
    I felt that was what was going on all the time. Tyrese and Caleb need to have "their" time at the helm; though with Roach not in the mix (and Schutt and Blakes gone) we are hurtin' for a guard.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by revmel53 View Post
    I felt that was what was going on all the time. Tyrese and Caleb need to have "their" time at the helm; though with Roach not in the mix (and Schutt and Blakes gone) we are hurtin' for a guard.
    I too believe Jon got the backcourt he proritized. Along with being a valuable piece next season, Foster has potentially two more years in the program. Of course there was a role for Jeremy on the team, but we'll never know what that was - only that he decided to move on.

  12. #692
    I certainly don't think - at all - that in prioritizing Proctor and Foster the staff shut the door on Roach. I think expectations were set that Proctor would be the lead PG and Roach could continue to play in the capacity he has for four years. Roach, however, knows he needs to display more playmaking chops if he hopes to make the league, and that would not happen sharing the ball with Proctor. Not to mention, knowing that Roach very may well leave for a profssional career anyway after playing for four years, the staff prioritized Proctor in the sense of trying to retain him with more resources than they did Roach.

  13. #693

    Salary Caps

    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Salary caps usually come about as the result of collective bargaining. Currently there is no incentive for the blue bloods (Duke included) to agree to something like that - why would we?

    And with salary caps come salary dumps - gotta get under the cap? Maybe a scholarship player has to go in order to make that happen, whether the player wants to change schools or not.

    This canít be fixed. Itís a professional sport with universal unrestricted free agency every year, with a perfunctory connection to academics. Attempts to regulate it will further erode that already mostly fictional idea that these kids are college students enrolled in the university.
    Salary caps require an enforcement authority. The NCAA can hardly do anything right so it can hardly be them. When the salary cap was zero even the most naive knew there was widespread cheating.

    IMHO one way to come close to fixing this is through the college Presidents and academics. If the accrediting group would start to investigate schools for having non students than maybe the schools would take notice.

    The other solution might befor schools that value academics form their own organization with rules on transfers, payments etc. A player could opt for one of these schools or could go to one who had basically no rules. Not a lawyer nut assume it would fly.

    The current situation is a mess.

    SoCal

  14. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    This feels like a huge longshot. Mahaney, who played all 40 minutes in SM's NCAA tourney game (shooting an awful 5-21 from the field), ain't coming to Duke to battle Harris, Evans, and Kon for the 15 or so backup minutes behind Proctor and Foster.
    Does this say more about how hard it is to get transfers to Duke? More about not wanting to ruffle the feathers of our current starting guards? Are we capped as far as quality goes?

    Ow, makes my head hurt.
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  15. #695
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    Washington, D.C.

    Ummmm

    Quote Originally Posted by revmel53 View Post
    I felt that was what was going on all the time. Tyrese and Caleb need to have "their" time at the helm; though with Roach not in the mix (and Schutt and Blakes gone) we are hurtin' for a guard.
    Absent more evidence than musings by a reporter (even a good one), I'm not willing to accept this explanation.

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I feel like ND could be used as an example. I see no reason why football can't be spun off into a couple super conferences for everyone who wants to, and the rest of the sports can return to regional rivalries and conferences. The answer of course, is "money", and I understand that there will be a net drain on resources for most schools (Duke included) but I'd rather that than feel like I'm watching the heat death of college sports.

    I remember watching Duke Women's club rugby when I was a student, as a high school friend played on Elon's team. Minimal resources, played in a field near a back parking lot, but they played. Kids like sports, kids will play sports without billion dollar tv contracts. Could it change the landscape? Sure. But even with a doomsday scenario where even Duke basketball falls as a casualty to spun-off football conferences I'd still rather pay Duke for Duke+ streaming than feel like I'm contributing to Duke Men's Baseball having to fly to California for "conference" games by paying ESPN.
    Interesting you bring up ND. I think Duke is uniquely positioned to be an outlier as a Basketball Independent (to the detriment of all other sports) should it choose to do that.
    I think if it goes that route, Duke can finagle a path to maintain relevancy.

    And of course money. If the super-conference teams are in an easy bucket to self segregate, I'm happy to start ignoring them immediately and not give them any money with viewing packages and Ad support.
    I am not a basketball fan. I am a Duke basketball fan. I can easily not watch games that do not involve Duke.

  17. #697
    And if you thought things weren't crazy enough.

    https://www.espn.com/college-sports/...y-athletes-nil

    Virginia passes law that allows school to pay athletes directly.

  18. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilko View Post
    Interesting you bring up ND. I think Duke is uniquely positioned to be an outlier as a Basketball Independent (to the detriment of all other sports) should it choose to do that.
    I think if it goes that route, Duke can finagle a path to maintain relevancy.

    And of course money. If the super-conference teams are in an easy bucket to self segregate, I'm happy to start ignoring them immediately and not give them any money with viewing packages and Ad support.
    I am not a basketball fan. I am a Duke basketball fan. I can easily not watch games that do not involve Duke.
    I actually think replacing 20 conference games in Jan and Feb would be hard. With mega conferences, every team's schedule is packed and the late season out-of-conference games have greatly diminished. Could an independent Duke find enough teams with bye weeks to actually fill a schedule?

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    And if you thought things weren't crazy enough.

    https://www.espn.com/college-sports/...y-athletes-nil

    Virginia passes law that allows school to pay athletes directly.
    This is fascinating. So UVA can now give an athlete $200k for posing for a website shoot. So I'd say the dam has broken on schools paying directly. Seems like other states will move quickly to follow suit. No now you have the athletes getting paid in a hybrid model - by boosters and the school. Even messier!

    So the other big trend here besides the best funded boosters/schools buying the best teams is that the athletes are going to extract more and more money out of the system until some type of artificial wage controls are put in place like in the pro leagues...

  20. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    Salary caps require an enforcement authority. The NCAA can hardly do anything right so it can hardly be them.
    While the NCAA has certainly earned rightful criticism for being spineless and ineffective, I think the days of them being at fault have past. There have been a few instances where they've stepped in and said "No, we can't have this chaos", such as their recent rule that players can only transfer once prior to their post-grad playing careers. Thanks to a court ruling, the NCAA was told "tough luck on that", and players can transfer every year if they so choose.
    We are in the days of the court system being the new governing body of college athletics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    And if you thought things weren't crazy enough.

    https://www.espn.com/college-sports/...y-athletes-nil

    Virginia passes law that allows school to pay athletes directly.
    Case in point.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

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