The Best Sophomores in Duke History

[budwom]

Some serious recency bias in effect here.

it's like Fundamentalism where the earth began fifty years ago or something...

[Dukehk]

Elton Brand please.

What a player.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Bob Verga: 21.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 53.1% FG, 65.5% FT, All-ACC First Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team

Mike Lewis: 13.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 59.4% FG, 75% FT, All-ACC Tournament First Team

Everyone's list would be different in these situations and the challenge is compounded by different rules over time, etc. However, we should at least define the parameters for inclusion if such a list is to be meaningful at all.

I was at Duke during the second half of these guys' careers. I have never seen anyone (JJ included) who could shoot from deep like Verga. He was something of an a** as a person, but, man, could he shoot.

I also thing Mike Lewis is one of the most under-appreciated Duke big men.

[accfanfrom1970]

I was at Duke during the second half of these guys' careers. I have never seen anyone (JJ included) who could shoot from deep like Verga. He was something of an a** as a person, but, man, could he shoot.

I also thing Mike Lewis is one of the most under-appreciated Duke big men.

Never saw Verga at Duke, but watched him play during the summer Jersey Shore league for Sea Girt.
Man he could shoot.

Got to meet Lewis after a game at Cameron. Super nice guy.

[Edouble]

Elton Brand please.

What a player.

Elton was great, but he had so much help, probably the most help, out of any of these guys, and still failed to get it done on Monday night against Jake Voskuhl.

He also had a few stinkers and came off the bench for a time in December.

Elton is definitely top ten, but I gotta go with Jason Williams for my #1 spot. He lost Boozer and still won 10 in a row.

[pcal6vb]

For pre-1972 players (Heyman, Mullins, Verga, Denton, etc.) who were not eligible for varsity basketball as freshmen, do their stellar sophomore seasons count for this evaluation of "Top 10 Duke Sophomore Seasons"? By letter of the law, they do; the spirit* of what Jason seems to be going for is more "best second season for a returning player". In that lens, the pre-1972 players are in a bit of a gray area. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to argue some of those sophomore seasons don't merit top 10, Heyman in particular.

*caveat that I have not listened to the podcast yet, and therefore don't know if Jason clarified parameters of the list there...

[peteandpete]

For pre-1972 players (Heyman, Mullins, Verga, Denton, etc.) who were not eligible for varsity basketball as freshmen, do their stellar sophomore seasons count for this evaluation of "Top 10 Duke Sophomore Seasons"? By letter of the law, they do; the spirit* of what Jason seems to be going for is more "best second season for a returning player". In that lens, the pre-1972 players are in a bit of a gray area. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to argue some of those sophomore seasons don't merit top 10, Heyman in particular.

*caveat that I have not listened to the podcast yet, and therefore don't know if Jason clarified parameters of the list there...

[/I]

If you want to consider their second or junior years, their inclusion might become more compelling:

Bob Verga: 18.5 ppg, 4 rpg, 49% FG, 73.1% FT, All-ACC First Team, Consensus All-American Second Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team, NCAA Tournament All-Region

Art Heyman: 25.3 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 43.3% FG, 61.6% FT, All-ACC First Team, Consensus All-American Second Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team

Jeff Mullins: 20.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 54.9% FG, 73.3% FT, All-ACC First Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team, NCAA Tournament All-Region

Randy Denton: 21.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 54.2% FG, 65.2% FT All-ACC Second Team

Mike Lewis: 15.5 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 53.2% FG, 78.1% FT, All-ACC Second Team, All-ACC Tournament Second Team

Dick DeVensio: His case from a numbers perspective gets weaker as only his FT% increased.

Gene Banks: Did play as a freshman so the numbers I shared earlier stand.

[Bluedog]

I was at Duke during the second half of these guys' careers. I have never seen anyone (JJ included) who could shoot from deep like Verga. He was something of an a** as a person, but, man, could he shoot.

I also thing Mike Lewis is one of the most under-appreciated Duke big men.

One thing that's curious to me (disclosure: I wasn't around to watch Verga) is that his FT percentage is fairly pedestrian at 65%. I assume, back in those days, overall FT percentage is lower than it is today as people simply have been taught better mechanics/practice/etc. But we typically use FT percentage as a reasonable barometer to shooting ability because it's pretty standard/stagnant. In fact, NBA often looks at FT percentage in college to predict 3 PT % rather than looking at 3 PT % as that can contain a decent amount of "noise"/variability. So, if Verga was a shooter **better** than JJ Redick, how could his FT percentage be so low? Maybe it's just different eras and different lenses, but if a guy can drill it from 30 feet consistently with a defender, he should be able to drill it from 20 feet without a defender and getting all the time you want.

(Not saying Verga wasn't an amazing player/competitor, but simply questioning if he truly was a better outside shooter than JJ -- who I did watch in person during my time at Duke, so perhaps we both have "in person watching" bias )

[Phredd3]

[/I]

If you want to consider their second or junior years, their inclusion might become more compelling:

Bob Verga: 18.5 ppg, 4 rpg, 49% FG, 73.1% FT, All-ACC First Team, Consensus All-American Second Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team, NCAA Tournament All-Region

Art Heyman: 25.3 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 43.3% FG, 61.6% FT, All-ACC First Team, Consensus All-American Second Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team

Jeff Mullins: 20.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 54.9% FG, 73.3% FT, All-ACC First Team, All-ACC Tournament First Team, NCAA Tournament All-Region

Randy Denton: 21.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 54.2% FG, 65.2% FT All-ACC Second Team

Mike Lewis: 15.5 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 53.2% FG, 78.1% FT, All-ACC Second Team, All-ACC Tournament Second Team

Dick DeVensio: His case from a numbers perspective gets weaker as only his FT% increased.

Gene Banks: Did play as a freshman so the numbers I shared earlier stand.

If second season is the true criteria, you need to take that all the way back to:

Dick Groat: 25.2 ppg on 21.6 FGA, 40% FG, 78.9% FT, All-Southern Conference, Basketball (and Baseball) All-American

[JasonEvans]

*caveat that I have not listened to the podcast yet, and therefore don't know if Jason clarified parameters of the list there...

1) Well listen then!!

2) I said that I was only going back to the late 1970s. That is both the "modern era" of Duke hoops and also encompasses players that I have actually seen play basketball in my lifetime.

[pcal6vb]

1) Well listen then!!

Haha, it's in the queue (my feed). I'm a couple weeks behind on podcasts, and playing catchup...

[Maged]

One thing that's curious to me (disclosure: I wasn't around to watch Verga) is that his FT percentage is fairly pedestrian at 65%. I assume, back in those days, overall FT percentage is lower than it is today as people simply have been taught better mechanics/practice/etc. But we typically use FT percentage as a reasonable barometer to shooting ability because it's pretty standard/stagnant. In fact, NBA often looks at FT percentage in college to predict 3 PT % rather than looking at 3 PT % as that can contain a decent amount of "noise"/variability. So, if Verga was a shooter **better** than JJ Redick, how could his FT percentage be so low? Maybe it's just different eras and different lenses, but if a guy can drill it from 30 feet consistently with a defender, he should be able to drill it from 20 feet without a defender and getting all the time you want.

(Not saying Verga wasn't an amazing player/competitor, but simply questioning if he truly was a better outside shooter than JJ -- who I did watch in person during my time at Duke, so perhaps we both have "in person watching" bias )

I wondered the same thing. His FT % did improve each year, to 77.7% as a senior. Still not JJ range. Having also seen him at the Jersey Shore League when he was about 40 years old, he was still an amazing shooter, shooting a flat jumper from a little behind his head.

My guess is he shot as well from 25 ft. as he did from 15 for some reason. Or, he was a volume shooter. But he was really good. And tough as nails.

[JosephReidBooks]

10 sophomores better than Grant Hill?

Yeah, I get looking at the season numbers and I respect the accomplishments of those mentioned ahead of him.

But going 8-14 for 18 points, with 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals, and 2 blocks -- in the National Championship game! Such an all-around player and every phase of his game was clicking in the most crucial of all games.

Agree with roywhite that Grant was the one that stuck out to me as missing from the Top 10. Totally admit that I'm biased having seen that '92 team in person, but let's not forget that not only did Grant put up these single game and season-long stats at a time when college basketball was dominated by upperclassmen, but he also stepped in and ran point as forward for 3 weeks when Bobby broke his foot. Maybe I'm misremembering, but his ability to do that and have us not miss a beat as the #1 team in the country was surprising to just about everyone. That's all context that doesn't show up in the numbers but I don't think we should ignore it.

Oh, and there's that pass...you know the one.

I just can't look at that season and think it's not one of the 10 best ever.

[CDu]

Duke sophomores who were All-ACC first team from 1960 (Bubas) to 2012 (OAD era):

Heyman
Mullins
Verga
Gminski
Alarie
Trajan Langdon
JWill

Not saying they all should be on the list, but "Attention must be paid."

You are missing some guys on this list. Unless you were intending to list guys who were excluded from that top-10, in which case JWill shouldn’t be on this list.

That said, I would agree with the idea that some of these other guys should be on the top 10 list

[budwom]

1) Well listen then!!

2) I said that I was only going back to the late 1970s. That is both the "modern era" of Duke hoops and also encompasses players that I have actually seen play basketball in my lifetime.

you don't see the stellar 1960s Duke teams as modern era? Really? Seemed to me like a very very similar game played by similarly talent players.

[Monmouth77]

you don't see the stellar 1960s Duke teams as modern era? Really? Seemed to me like a very very similar game played by similarly talent players.

Not to stir the pot here, but I do feel like the segregation era is really quite different. I get that players like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were out there setting records in the late 1950s. But not at Duke. Or, more famously, Kentucky.

[budwom]

Not to stir the pot here, but I do feel like the segregation era is really quite different. I get that players like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were out there setting records in the late 1950s. But not at Duke. Or, more famously, Kentucky.

I definitely get that, but Duke teams in the late seventies were still extremely white...in 77-78 Banks and Harrell were the only black players...I just don't see them being all THAT much different from some of the final four teams of the mid sixties.
If we're going to have a demarcation between mostly white teams and much more integrated ones, it surely comes well into the 80s...

[JasonEvans]

I definitely get that, but Duke teams in the late seventies were still extremely white...in 77-78 Banks and Harrell were the only black players...I just don't see them being all THAT much different from some of the final four teams of the mid sixties.
If we're going to have a demarcation between mostly white teams and much more integrated ones, it surely comes well into the 80s...

Honestly, at first I was just going to do the K era to present... essentially, my time as a Duke fan (I arrived on campus in the fall of 1985) but then I happened to glance at G-man's soph season and saw he had averaged 20&10 and I felt like I really wanted to include that in the list.

This was probably a flawed exercise from the start. Really just doing it for fun and to generate some interesting conversation. I feel like I succeeded at that better than at picking the best soph seasons

Someone emailed me and pointed out that Tre Jones was ACC POY and DPOY, something that has only been done by Shane Battier, Tim Duncan, and Malcolm Brogden (all of whom did it as seniors)... I think I may have criminally underrated Tre's soph season and he deserves to be in the #3 spot. That whole team was robbed of so much when Covid happened and shut the season down. If they go on a tournament run (not at all surprising given the elevated play of JRob) I think Tre and Vernon Carey's standing in the eyes of Duke fans might be verrrrry different.

-Jason "if if if if if if if if if..." Evans

[DevilYouKnow]

When I saw this thread title, all I could think about was Elton Brand.

[Rogue]

One thing that's curious to me (disclosure: I wasn't around to watch Verga) is that his FT percentage is fairly pedestrian at 65%. I assume, back in those days, overall FT percentage is lower than it is today as people simply have been taught better mechanics/practice/etc. But we typically use FT percentage as a reasonable barometer to shooting ability because it's pretty standard/stagnant. In fact, NBA often looks at FT percentage in college to predict 3 PT % rather than looking at 3 PT % as that can contain a decent amount of "noise"/variability. So, if Verga was a shooter **better** than JJ Redick, how could his FT percentage be so low? Maybe it's just different eras and different lenses, but if a guy can drill it from 30 feet consistently with a defender, he should be able to drill it from 20 feet without a defender and getting all the time you want.

(Not saying Verga wasn't an amazing

player/competitor, but simply questioning if he truly was a better outside shooter than JJ -- who I did watch in person during my time at Duke, so perhaps we both have "in person watching" bias )

I’m a huge fan of Bob Verga,, but I certainly do not think the defenses Verga faced were nearly as good as what JJ faced. Players are a lot faster in the Redick era . A lot more zones were played in the Verga era. These are just my opinions.
But I’d like to know how many points Verga would have scored with 4 years of varsity ball and the 3 point line .