Duke MBB Academic Progress Report Score... troubling

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Correct. And neither have the OAD or highly ranked players at other schools. It's the new landscape of college athletics, which have slowly (maybe quickly) evolved into paid amateurism. The naivety on the board is astounding sometimes.

It was a glacial evolution, marked with a massive tectonic shift.

[Southgate0809]

Apparently, there are no penalties for anybody next season:

https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/2/10/...r-2024-25.aspx

Wait, it says penalties will resume based on the 4-year average that is released in Spring of 2024. In Spring of 2024, are they releasing the scores for 2023?

[sagegrouse]

What is the incentive for a young man waiting to be drafted and deposit their first big paycheck to continue to attend classes?

Not an excuse, but where's the rationale? Brotherhood? Honor? Academic integrity?

Eventually needing a college degree -- such as, for example, to coach in college. Also, completing your course work is part of "the deal" with Duke.

[Southgate0809]

Ok, here's my math.

Our current APR 4-year rolling average was reported to be 935. I can't figure out how they got that number.

2021-2022 score was 829
2020-2021 score was 957
2018-2019 score was 1000
2017-2018 score was 936

If the NCAA is counting the 4-year rolling average as the last 4 seasons they calculated the score (which excludes the covid season, but would actually span over 5 years), you would average those 4 scores listed above, which gets you 930.5, not 935. Is it possible that was an error, and we were even lower than reported?

If the NCAA is counting the last 4 calendar years, which would only count the first 3 scores listed above, our rolling average would be 928.6.

If the method used is the former, we would need to score a 934 on our 2022-2023 score to maintain a 930 average. If the method is the latter, we would need a 1004 for the 2022-2023 season, which is impossible.

Obviously, we'll hope for the first method.

[normk]

Do you post to offer your thoughts or just take issue with what everyone else says?

I didn't listen to the podcast nor do I know enough about the situation to opine.

But I did read a post that briefly summarized "coach K allowing guys to wear arm-sleeves in 2010 is the reason Duke has a poor academic record from 2019-2023" and felt the need to reply.

[normk]

Ok, here's my math.

Our current APR 4-year rolling average was reported to be 935. I can't figure out how they got that number.

2021-2022 score was 829
2020-2021 score was 957
2018-2019 score was 1000
2017-2018 score was 936

If the NCAA is counting the 4-year rolling average as the last 4 seasons they calculated the score (which excludes the covid season, but would actually span over 5 years), you would average those 4 scores listed above, which gets you 930.5, not 935. Is it possible that was an error, and we were even lower than reported?

If the NCAA is counting the last 4 calendar years, which would only count the first 3 scores listed above, our rolling average would be 928.6.

If the method used is the former, we would need to score a 934 on our 2022-2023 score to maintain a 930 average. If the method is the latter, we would need a 1004 for the 2022-2023 season, which is impossible.

Obviously, we'll hope for the first method.

Why would an academic score not use the academic calendar?

[knicknut]

Here are the years that went into the current 930.5 score for Duke:

2021-22 	829	(10th – 20th percentile of all D1 basketball schools)
2020-21	        957
2019-20	        n/a due to Covid
2018-19	        1000
2017-18	        936

Regarding that 829 score, Duke got 23 out of a possible 28 points from that year. You get a point for a player remaining eligible to stay in school (or graduating) and a point for a player making progress to graduation or gruduating. Duke had 14 players in 21-22 so we had 28 possible points.

So, 5 players from that team apparently failed to complete their courses or something like that.

Could it be that 3 didn't make progress and 2 of those 3 would have become ineligible? I guess I don't quite understand the difference and what circumstance could lead to fulfilling one but not the other to lose 5 points.

I'm just trying to deduce whether we have to conclude that this was a broad, systemic issue last year, or whether there's a chance that just a couple guys who were at NBA workouts during finals and refused to make it up, and they had an outsized impact on the team score.

I imagine aside from appealing to the commitment they made to the program when they accepted a scholarship, it's hard to compel some players to fulfill their academic requirements when their mind is on the draft in the last few weeks of the semester. (Not making excuses -- this news saddens me deeply, but I imagine it puts the staff in a hard position when a player sees zero upside from taking a final exam, but training during that time could lead to a better draft slot?)

[Bluedog]

Ok, here's my math.

Our current APR 4-year rolling average was reported to be 935. I can't figure out how they got that number.

2021-2022 score was 829
2020-2021 score was 957
2018-2019 score was 1000
2017-2018 score was 936

If the NCAA is counting the 4-year rolling average as the last 4 seasons they calculated the score (which excludes the covid season, but would actually span over 5 years), you would average those 4 scores listed above, which gets you 930.5, not 935. Is it possible that was an error, and we were even lower than reported?

If the NCAA is counting the last 4 calendar years, which would only count the first 3 scores listed above, our rolling average would be 928.6.

If the method used is the former, we would need to score a 934 on our 2022-2023 score to maintain a 930 average. If the method is the latter, we would need a 1004 for the 2022-2023 season, which is impossible.

Obviously, we'll hope for the first method.

You must have misheard. Duke's calculated average IS 930.5, not 935. By my math, we need a 934 this past season to be above 930 (1000+957+829+ (934)) /4 = 930 for the 24-25 season. For the two years of 2022-23 and 2023-24, we need to AVERAGE 967 to retain eligibility for 25-26. So, if we get below 934 for 22-23, then yeah, we'd need above a 1000 the next season to retain eligibility (which is impossible). So, when next spring rolls around, we really need a 950+ for the 22-23 class. I'm sure Scheyer is aware of the math and telling guys like Roach, Lively, and Whitehead that they NEED to go to class and finish out the semester...

So, the NCAA not instituting this until 24-25 doesn't "help" us at all because we are already eligible this upcoming year by barely squeaking out a 930.

[Maged]

If Mark Williams received academic honors, and Jeremy Roach came back the next year so he must have stayed in school, then the group that shirked its academic responsibilities becomes quite small.

I wonder how the grad students are factored in. Did I miss that analysis?

One of our players didn't decide whether to stay or leave until May. By that time he had already decided whether to go to class or not.

The fact that Zion and RJ could meet the minimum standard defeats all other excuses and arguments.

[Southgate0809]

You must have misheard. Duke's calculated average IS 930.5, not 935. By my math, we need a 934 this past season to be above 930 (1000+957+829+ (934)) /4 = 930 for the 24-25 season. For the two years of 2022-23 and 2023-24, we need to AVERAGE 967 to retain eligibility for 25-26. So, if we get below 934 for 22-23, then yeah, we'd need above a 1000 the next season to retain eligibility (which is impossible). So, when next spring rolls around, we really need a 950+ for the 22-23 class. I'm sure Scheyer is aware of the math and telling guys like Roach, Lively, and Whitehead that they NEED to go to class and finish out the semester...

So, the NCAA not instituting this until 24-25 doesn't "help" us at all because we are already eligible this upcoming year by barely squeaking out a 930.

Got it straight from the NCAA:

https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/publ...=1683217578519

[Southgate0809]

Why would an academic score not use the academic calendar?

I wasn't questioning whether they used the academic calendar. I was questioning whether a 4-year rolling average means literally the last 4 academic years or the last 4 academic years in which they released an APR score.

[CameronDuke]

The academic brethren rather than the Brotherhood.

This is an alarming and embarrassing score for a program that for so long was dedicated to excellence on the court and in the classroom. Sign of the times, I guess. And can you blame the kids for not going to class or meeting their academic requirements? Many will be utilizing their basketball playing skills to make money in their careers, probably enough money to live off of comfortably for the remainder of their lives. No disrespect to academics, but they likely don’t put as much focus on maximizing earnings in their careers as basketball players based off their knowledge of English literature, biology, chemistry, etc.

Just the reality of a changing NCAA landscape.

It’s really all about the money to many people these days including evidently some Duke basketball players. And I don’t blame them at all. Academics don’t necessarily always make elite basketball players as much money as quickly as focusing on their basketball skills and that’s a fact. Big time NCAA basketball can essentially be thought of as minor league basketball in some frames of mind, as much as we may not want to admit it if we want to keep thinking Duke is elite academically for the men’s basketball team.

Let’s hope Coach Jon Scheyer and staff can elevate the academics side of the program back to where we know it can be (I think he and his staff can do it).

[knicknut]

Jon and the program had to know these numbers weren't going to be good for close to a year. Knowing we have no margin for error going forward, it's hard not to speculate when thinking back on the recruitment, commitment, de-commitment, and transfer decisions of the past 12 months. (But I will refrain from typing specifics and know others won't, either.)

At least with only two players who know they will not want or need future NCAA eligibility on this past year's team, there are only two players we must compel to take and pass their finals to secure a near-perfect score this season.

[bluedevilwildcats]

The academic brethren rather than the Brotherhood.

This is an alarming and embarrassing score for a program that for so long was dedicated to excellence on the court and in the classroom. Sign of the times, I guess. And can you blame the kids for not going to class or meeting their academic requirements? Many will be utilizing their basketball playing skills to make money in their careers, probably enough money to live off of comfortably for the remainder of their lives. No disrespect to academics, but they likely don’t put as much focus on maximizing earnings in their careers as basketball players based off their knowledge of English literature, biology, chemistry, etc.

Just the reality of a changing NCAA landscape.

It’s really all about the money to many people these days including evidently some Duke basketball players. And I don’t blame them at all. Academics don’t necessarily always make elite basketball players as much money as quickly as focusing on their basketball skills and that’s a fact. Big time NCAA basketball can essentially be thought of as minor league basketball in some frames of mind, as much as we may not want to admit it if we want to keep thinking Duke is elite academically for the men’s basketball team.

Let’s hope Coach Jon Scheyer and staff can elevate the academics side of the program back to where we know it can be (I think he and his staff can do it).

I don't mean to denigrate your thoughtful post, but I really don't find acceptable the "what can we do? / no blame to go around" argument. My 12 and 10 year olds have just as little interest in fulfilling their academic commitments as do several Duke players, apparently. So what? It's my job as an "educator" to persuade, cajole or demand they uphold certain standards. Don't you feel the coaches and Duke more generally owe the athletes the same guidance and - if necessary - "tough love"?

[Southgate0809]

The NCAA website says it takes them a whole year to release the final scores because they give the schools their preliminary score and then give them a chance to argue their case if they disagree. I would guess hat our score being exactly 930 is not a coincidence. Unfortunately, it may have been lower, and Duke had to argue it back up to reach a 930 average.

[CameronDuke]

I don't mean to denigrate your thoughtful post, but I really don't find acceptable the "what can we do? / no blame to go around" argument. My 12 and 10 year olds have just as little interest in fulfilling their academic commitments as do several Duke players, apparently. So what? It's my job as an "educator" to persuade, cajole or demand they uphold certain standards. Don't you feel the coaches and Duke more generally owe the athletes the same guidance and - if necessary - "tough love"?

Are your kids projected lottery picks for the NBA draft/will they be? If so and they were my kids, I’d probably get them to focus more on their basketball skills. But I won’t tell you how to parent. Bryce Harper dropped out of high school and got his GED to play JUCO baseball early. His career and financial success seem to have paid off so far for his life.

The Duke coaches could be providing the athletes that guidance. The athletes may not be following it. None of us know.

[Bluedog]

Got it straight from the NCAA:

https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/publ...=1683217578519

Ah got it. Not sure why the discrepancy.

[Southgate0809]

Are your kids lottery picks for the NBA draft/will they be? If so and they were my kids, I’d probably get them to focus more on their basketball skills. But I won’t tell you how to parent.

Eh, I disagree with that mindset. The vast majority of our players over the years have been able to focus on basketball/prepare for the NBA draft effectively without compromising the team's academic eligibility. With the reduced course load and limitless resources (tutors etc.) for a basketball player, there is no excuse not to show up and pass your classes. Someone needs to remind them that they committed to being part of a team, which includes being a student for a full school year.

[Phredd3]

Got it straight from the NCAA:

https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/publ...=1683217578519

That list is remarkable. It is worth pointing out that the *lowest* score for the 2021-22 year, other than Duke Men's Basketball, is the 977 posted by Women's Lacrosse. Even Football posted a 980. Further, the lowest multiyear score - again, other than Men's Basketball - is the 983 posted by Football. Duke's multiyear APR is in the top quintile within each individual sport for 23 of 28 DI sports programs. DMBB is the only program in the bottom quintile. That's really pretty terrible.

[CameronDuke]

Eh, I disagree with that mindset. The vast majority of our players over the years have been able to focus on basketball/prepare for the NBA draft effectively without compromising the team's academic eligibility. With the reduced course load and limitless resources (tutors etc.) for a basketball player, there is no excuse not to show up and pass your classes. Someone needs to remind them that they committed to being part of a team, which includes being a student for a full school year.

True and it’s also true the vast majority of Duke’s players over the years didn’t play for Duke in the current NCAA landscape. The one and done and NIL eras have affected how seriously players in the NCAA focus on school and academics. The one and dones are getting paid and that’s their main focus. Just let them go pro out of high school and if they come to college, they have to stay 3 years like college baseball. But then the NCAA wouldn’t be raking in as much money.