2023 NBA Playoffs Thread

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Okay, so, I mentioned that I hate focusing on refs post-game, but I want to explain a bit further.

There's different levels of sanity when it comes to complaining about the refs:

1) "Oof, I think that was a bad call." The is the lowest level of terping. Maybe it's a close block/charge or looks like it could have been called a goal tend. It's a judgment call for the ref, and it was a close decision. Not worth even dwelling upon - these happen every game and it's part of sports. Carry on.

2) "Oof, that was clearly a bad call." Same sort of scenario - it's a judgment call, but it looks pretty cut and dry on replay. I'd say the goal tending scenario last night would be a good example - if they had a replay available for that, I don't think many people would argue it would have been 2 points for Denver. Again, not a reason for a fan to get upset - these calls happen a lot in each game and it does have a tendency to even out over the course of a game.

3) "Oof, how on EARTH did they miss that?" This is a more frustrating scenario. The phantom foul with no touch. The player who drags his pivot foot. Catching the ball with one foot out of bounds. Shooter gets smacked on the arm during the shot with no whistle. - these sorts of calls are more frustrating for sure. Especially as the game winds down to the end and the plays feel like they may have an effect on the outcome of the match.

4) "Oof, these refs are garbage" - many missed and phantom calls that seem to be without rhyme or reason and are distributed relatively equally to both ends of the court. Not simply calling "too loose" or "too tight" on the fouls, but erratic calls. This makes for a frustrating watch, even for a fan who has no vested interest in the outcome.

5) "Oof, these refs have it out for us!" - Continued calls that seem to be going against your team - some combination of the above scenarios above that all seem to tilt one direction rather than being randomly dispersed. This is a relatively common refrain on message boards such as this where you have a community of like-minded folks who are all rooting for the same team. Our most recent game in the NCAA Tournament would be a great example of this level of ref terping.

6) "Oof, these refs cost us the game!" - This could be an extension of the previous level, but with the extra assertion that the refs were so biased that it changed the outcome of the game. This could be either a few big decisions in the final moments of the game (see Filipowski, Kyle) or continued one-sided calls throughout the game that the team isn't able to overcome - either favoring a particular style of play or by getting key players into foul trouble.

7) "Oof, the refs threw the game and my team got screwed" - This is commonly an assertion that might be made in the heat of the moment after a loss, but upon reflection usually people back off the claims. The idea that somehow the "fix is in" very rarely passes the straight face test. Even if one were to conceded that a ref might have reason to put their finger on the scale (financial incentive, dislike of a player or team, some degree of threats) it's extremely unlikely that the opportunity would arise to be in the position to make calls that would intentionally impact the outcome of the game. If it's a one point game and there's a steal in the final moments and a player is running down the court for a game-winning layup and the ref blows his whistle to indicate block/charge - sure. But that's not how 99% of games wind up.

#7 is almost always a ludicrous claim. For me to believe a conspiracy of referee(s) deciding a game, I would want lots of evidence beyond a few judgement calls. I need to know what the motivation was and how they were to claim the opportunity to determine the outcome. Without those pieces, it just smells like terrible terping to me.

Now, let's get back to discussing how we seem to suddenly have a pretty interesting series on our hands!

[ClemmonsDevil]

Okay, so, I mentioned that I hate focusing on refs post-game, but I want to explain a bit further.

There's different levels of sanity when it comes to complaining about the refs:

1) "Oof, I think that was a bad call." The is the lowest level of terping. Maybe it's a close block/charge or looks like it could have been called a goal tend. It's a judgment call for the ref, and it was a close decision. Not worth even dwelling upon - these happen every game and it's part of sports. Carry on.

2) "Oof, that was clearly a bad call." Same sort of scenario - it's a judgment call, but it looks pretty cut and dry on replay. I'd say the goal tending scenario last night would be a good example - if they had a replay available for that, I don't think many people would argue it would have been 2 points for Denver. Again, not a reason for a fan to get upset - these calls happen a lot in each game and it does have a tendency to even out over the course of a game.

3) "Oof, how on EARTH did they miss that?" This is a more frustrating scenario. The phantom foul with no touch. The player who drags his pivot foot. Catching the ball with one foot out of bounds. Shooter gets smacked on the arm during the shot with no whistle. - these sorts of calls are more frustrating for sure. Especially as the game winds down to the end and the plays feel like they may have an effect on the outcome of the match.

4) "Oof, these refs are garbage" - many missed and phantom calls that seem to be without rhyme or reason and are distributed relatively equally to both ends of the court. Not simply calling "too loose" or "too tight" on the fouls, but erratic calls. This makes for a frustrating watch, even for a fan who has no vested interest in the outcome.

5) "Oof, these refs have it out for us!" - Continued calls that seem to be going against your team - some combination of the above scenarios above that all seem to tilt one direction rather than being randomly dispersed. This is a relatively common refrain on message boards such as this where you have a community of like-minded folks who are all rooting for the same team. Our most recent game in the NCAA Tournament would be a great example of this level of ref terping.

6) "Oof, these refs cost us the game!" - This could be an extension of the previous level, but with the extra assertion that the refs were so biased that it changed the outcome of the game. This could be either a few big decisions in the final moments of the game (see Filipowski, Kyle) or continued one-sided calls throughout the game that the team isn't able to overcome - either favoring a particular style of play or by getting key players into foul trouble.

7) "Oof, the refs threw the game and my team got screwed" - This is commonly an assertion that might be made in the heat of the moment after a loss, but upon reflection usually people back off the claims. The idea that somehow the "fix is in" very rarely passes the straight face test. Even if one were to conceded that a ref might have reason to put their finger on the scale (financial incentive, dislike of a player or team, some degree of threats) it's extremely unlikely that the opportunity would arise to be in the position to make calls that would intentionally impact the outcome of the game. If it's a one point game and there's a steal in the final moments and a player is running down the court for a game-winning layup and the ref blows his whistle to indicate block/charge - sure. But that's not how 99% of games wind up.

#7 is almost always a ludicrous claim. For me to believe a conspiracy of referee(s) deciding a game, I would want lots of evidence beyond a few judgement calls. I need to know what the motivation was and how they were to claim the opportunity to determine the outcome. Without those pieces, it just smells like terrible terping to me.

Now, let's get back to discussing how we seem to suddenly have a pretty interesting series on our hands!

Good work with this breakdown. I hate refs. Think they are all clearly bad people. But I never get to #7. I get to #6, but then back off from that take usually as I think about other plays throughout the game. My take on some famous Duke calls: the kid from Indiana tried to foul Boozer and the referee swallowed his whistle, it was a block on Carter Jr, I agreed with the Virginia Tech no call, the UVA call was an egregious miss, the way the refs called the Tennessee game meant Duke had no chance...but the way they called it was within the realm of possibilities.

[Bluedog]

Good work with this breakdown. I hate refs. Think they are all clearly bad people. But I never get to #7. I get to #6, but then back off from that take usually as I think about other plays throughout the game. My take on some famous Duke calls: the kid from Indiana tried to foul Boozer and the referee swallowed his whistle, it was a block on Carter Jr, I agreed with the Virginia Tech no call, the UVA call was an egregious miss, the way the refs called the Tennessee game meant Duke had no chance...but the way they called it was within the realm of possibilities.

You agreed with the call on Carter Jr that it was a block?!
https://twitter.com/TheSportsPoller/...63676933623809

I mean, it's a judgment call certainly, but I think it's clearly a charge ... (and this was the "old" rules).

Definitely not the worst call against us ever. But very costly for sure. Gah, if only Grayson's bucket at the end of regulation would have gone down instead of in and out...

[superdave]

Denver is clearly the better team. But if Miami can take away Jokic's playmaking and hit half their threes, it gets interesting.

Mentally, Denver needs to come out roaring in Game 3. The last thing they need is to start second guessing themselves.

[tommy]

Ignorant? Lazy? Stupid?
With the amount of money in sports gambling it doesn’t seem any of these things to wonder if it might have an effect on calls. It’s not like there has never been a gambling scandal in sports.
You read way too much into my brief comment. Your assumptions about what I was thinking are all things that were in your head, not mine.

Obviously it was in your head or you wouldn't have said it.

[Matches]

Denver is clearly the better team. But if Miami can take away Jokic's playmaking and hit half their threes, it gets interesting.

Mentally, Denver needs to come out roaring in Game 3. The last thing they need is to start second guessing themselves.

Miami did a good job of turning Joker into a scorer rather than a playmaker last night, although to some extent they were aided by Denver missing shots.

Agreed Denver needs to put their foot on Miami’s neck in Game 3. Doing so won’t end the Heat, but failing to do so suddenly makes things very interesting.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Miami did a good job of turning Joker into a scorer rather than a playmaker last night, although to some extent they were aided by Denver missing shots.

Agreed Denver needs to put their foot on Miami’s neck in Game 3. Doing so won’t end the Heat, but failing to do so suddenly makes things very interesting.

Yeah, only Jokic can have a line of 41/10/4 and it's disappointing.

If the Heat turn Joker into a scorer who doesn't facilitate, the series is very different.

[ClemmonsDevil]

You agreed with the call on Carter Jr that it was a block?!
https://twitter.com/TheSportsPoller/...63676933623809

I mean, it's a judgment call certainly, but I think it's clearly a charge ... (and this was the "old" rules).

Definitely not the worst call against us ever. But very costly for sure. Gah, if only Grayson's bucket at the end of regulation would have gone down instead of in and out...

I know. Watching it live I thought he leaned and hearing that, Grant says that as well.

[MartyClark]

I know. Watching it live I thought he leaned and hearing that, Grant says that as well.

Charge. No doubt.

[Rich]

Okay, so, I mentioned that I hate focusing on refs post-game, but I want to explain a bit further.

There's different levels of sanity when it comes to complaining about the refs:

1) "Oof, I think that was a bad call." The is the lowest level of terping. Maybe it's a close block/charge or looks like it could have been called a goal tend. It's a judgment call for the ref, and it was a close decision. Not worth even dwelling upon - these happen every game and it's part of sports. Carry on.

2) "Oof, that was clearly a bad call." Same sort of scenario - it's a judgment call, but it looks pretty cut and dry on replay. I'd say the goal tending scenario last night would be a good example - if they had a replay available for that, I don't think many people would argue it would have been 2 points for Denver. Again, not a reason for a fan to get upset - these calls happen a lot in each game and it does have a tendency to even out over the course of a game.

3) "Oof, how on EARTH did they miss that?" This is a more frustrating scenario. The phantom foul with no touch. The player who drags his pivot foot. Catching the ball with one foot out of bounds. Shooter gets smacked on the arm during the shot with no whistle. - these sorts of calls are more frustrating for sure. Especially as the game winds down to the end and the plays feel like they may have an effect on the outcome of the match.

4) "Oof, these refs are garbage" - many missed and phantom calls that seem to be without rhyme or reason and are distributed relatively equally to both ends of the court. Not simply calling "too loose" or "too tight" on the fouls, but erratic calls. This makes for a frustrating watch, even for a fan who has no vested interest in the outcome.

5) "Oof, these refs have it out for us!" - Continued calls that seem to be going against your team - some combination of the above scenarios above that all seem to tilt one direction rather than being randomly dispersed. This is a relatively common refrain on message boards such as this where you have a community of like-minded folks who are all rooting for the same team. Our most recent game in the NCAA Tournament would be a great example of this level of ref terping.

6) "Oof, these refs cost us the game!" - This could be an extension of the previous level, but with the extra assertion that the refs were so biased that it changed the outcome of the game. This could be either a few big decisions in the final moments of the game (see Filipowski, Kyle) or continued one-sided calls throughout the game that the team isn't able to overcome - either favoring a particular style of play or by getting key players into foul trouble.

7) "Oof, the refs threw the game and my team got screwed" - This is commonly an assertion that might be made in the heat of the moment after a loss, but upon reflection usually people back off the claims. The idea that somehow the "fix is in" very rarely passes the straight face test. Even if one were to conceded that a ref might have reason to put their finger on the scale (financial incentive, dislike of a player or team, some degree of threats) it's extremely unlikely that the opportunity would arise to be in the position to make calls that would intentionally impact the outcome of the game. If it's a one point game and there's a steal in the final moments and a player is running down the court for a game-winning layup and the ref blows his whistle to indicate block/charge - sure. But that's not how 99% of games wind up.

#7 is almost always a ludicrous claim. For me to believe a conspiracy of referee(s) deciding a game, I would want lots of evidence beyond a few judgement calls. I need to know what the motivation was and how they were to claim the opportunity to determine the outcome. Without those pieces, it just smells like terrible terping to me.

Now, let's get back to discussing how we seem to suddenly have a pretty interesting series on our hands!

Here's my take: You definitely say "Oof" much more than I do. I'm more of an "Ugh" guy.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Charge. No doubt.

I mean...there's SOME doubt.

[AGDukesky]

I mean...there's SOME doubt.

Not a big Gwen Stefani fan?

[SouthernDukie]

Good work with this breakdown. I hate refs. Think they are all clearly bad people. But I never get to #7.

I see you’re unfamiliar with LA Lakers v Sacramento Kings, Game 6 in Sacramento. 2002. That actually was a legitimate #7.

But admittedly it’s the only one I can think of at the moment.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Not a big Gwen Stefani fan?

Now I feel like I'm walking in a spiderweb

[ClemmonsDevil]

I see you’re unfamiliar with LA Lakers v Sacramento Kings, Game 6 in Sacramento. 2002. That actually was a legitimate #7.

But admittedly it’s the only one I can think of at the moment.

Oh I definitely watched. In my old run I was called "Bibby". Was pulling for the Kings for sure.

[MartyClark]

He is a joy to watch. Seemingly slow, seemingly not athletic, totally in control and highly effective. I can't think of a modern era comparison for him.

Going off on a tangent, one of my sons and I were in Belgrade, Serbia in about 2014. He is an old Eastern Europe hand, having served in the Peace Corps in Bulgaria, a human rights organization in Budapest and many Roma (Gypsies as they are sometimes described) education, human rights and human trafficking initiatives throughout Eastern Europe.

We really liked Belgrade in the summer. Definitely a cafe society with people eating and drinking at outdoor cafes well into the night.

We ended up at a brewpub called "Miner's" three nights in a row. Owned and operated by a bunch of young Serbian guys who grew up in a mining town. They were huge basketball fans and kept telling us about this guy Jokic.

More tangential, it was really interesting to see the pride they had and the longing they had for the old Yugoslavia. They were so engaged with old Yugo pop music (which we got into), Yugo punk rock and Yugoslavian sport dominance. It was a lot of fun.

They recommended restaurants and we got great grilled meats and Serbian food and wine for a very nominal price.

Anyhow, I get Jokic's pride in being a Serbian. I have a friend from Kosovo so I understand the other side of that conflict.

Go Nuggets! Go Jokic! Beat those South Beach dandies.

[Steven43]

Not a big Gwen Stefani fan?

Gwen Stefani at her peak is perhaps the 2nd-sexiest woman I’ve ever seen — my wife being #1. I even named my daughter after her, though for very different reasons.

Technically-speaking, I named my daughter after Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwen is basically a shortened version of Gwyneth. I just think it’s a rare and lovely name that is reminiscent of a princess from the days of King Arthur.

Sorry, guys, for briefly derailing this Celtics thread. 😉

[AGDukesky]

Gwen Stefani at her peak is perhaps the 2nd-sexiest woman I’ve ever seen — my wife being #1. I even named my daughter after her, though for very different reasons.

Technically-speaking, I named my daughter after Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwen is basically a shortened version of Gwyneth. I just think it’s a rare and lovely name that is reminiscent of a princess from the days of King Arthur.

Sorry, guys, for briefly derailing this Celtics thread. 😉

I’m just gonna chalk this up as another vote for “No Doubt” on the charge call…

[Steven43]

I’m just gonna chalk this up as another vote for “No Doubt” on the charge call…

You are correct, sir! There can be No Doubt that the Kansas player initiated the blatant contact on Carter, who had solid defensive position. That was an egregious call. And I think Duke would have won the game had the ref called a foul on the Kansas player, as he should have.

On a side note, I still can’t believe Grayson’s shot to win it in regulation didn’t go down. It was excruciatingly close!

[kako]

Okay, so, I mentioned that I hate focusing on refs post-game, but I want to explain a bit further.

There's different levels of sanity when it comes to complaining about the refs:

1) "Oof, I think that was a bad call." The is the lowest level of terping. Maybe it's a close block/charge or looks like it could have been called a goal tend. It's a judgment call for the ref, and it was a close decision. Not worth even dwelling upon - these happen every game and it's part of sports. Carry on.

2) "Oof, that was clearly a bad call." Same sort of scenario - it's a judgment call, but it looks pretty cut and dry on replay. I'd say the goal tending scenario last night would be a good example - if they had a replay available for that, I don't think many people would argue it would have been 2 points for Denver. Again, not a reason for a fan to get upset - these calls happen a lot in each game and it does have a tendency to even out over the course of a game.

3) "Oof, how on EARTH did they miss that?" This is a more frustrating scenario. The phantom foul with no touch. The player who drags his pivot foot. Catching the ball with one foot out of bounds. Shooter gets smacked on the arm during the shot with no whistle. - these sorts of calls are more frustrating for sure. Especially as the game winds down to the end and the plays feel like they may have an effect on the outcome of the match.

4) "Oof, these refs are garbage" - many missed and phantom calls that seem to be without rhyme or reason and are distributed relatively equally to both ends of the court. Not simply calling "too loose" or "too tight" on the fouls, but erratic calls. This makes for a frustrating watch, even for a fan who has no vested interest in the outcome.

5) "Oof, these refs have it out for us!" - Continued calls that seem to be going against your team - some combination of the above scenarios above that all seem to tilt one direction rather than being randomly dispersed. This is a relatively common refrain on message boards such as this where you have a community of like-minded folks who are all rooting for the same team. Our most recent game in the NCAA Tournament would be a great example of this level of ref terping.

6) "Oof, these refs cost us the game!" - This could be an extension of the previous level, but with the extra assertion that the refs were so biased that it changed the outcome of the game. This could be either a few big decisions in the final moments of the game (see Filipowski, Kyle) or continued one-sided calls throughout the game that the team isn't able to overcome - either favoring a particular style of play or by getting key players into foul trouble.

7) "Oof, the refs threw the game and my team got screwed" - This is commonly an assertion that might be made in the heat of the moment after a loss, but upon reflection usually people back off the claims. The idea that somehow the "fix is in" very rarely passes the straight face test. Even if one were to conceded that a ref might have reason to put their finger on the scale (financial incentive, dislike of a player or team, some degree of threats) it's extremely unlikely that the opportunity would arise to be in the position to make calls that would intentionally impact the outcome of the game. If it's a one point game and there's a steal in the final moments and a player is running down the court for a game-winning layup and the ref blows his whistle to indicate block/charge - sure. But that's not how 99% of games wind up.

#7 is almost always a ludicrous claim. For me to believe a conspiracy of referee(s) deciding a game, I would want lots of evidence beyond a few judgement calls. I need to know what the motivation was and how they were to claim the opportunity to determine the outcome. Without those pieces, it just smells like terrible terping to me.

Now, let's get back to discussing how we seem to suddenly have a pretty interesting series on our hands!

I like your breakdown, though I would perhaps switch your #5 and #6. One could scream about refs costing them the game without insinuating any favoritism. The refs would just, in essence, suck at their jobs so much over #4 that they cost a team the game. That would be my #5. When talking about a fix, that goes well beyond refereeing skills (or lack thereof). But on second thought, perhaps there should be an addition after your #4 (for a total of 8 levels of bad refereeing hell), which would be the refs cost the team a game, but they were simply incompetent and not crooked? Anyway, it's a pretty good list.

I myself can say the refs clearly cost Duke the game only once that I remember. Boozer was fouled. I know Booz would have had to actually make the FTs, but still...

(Postscript - yes, I forgot about Flip at UVA. That also was a game where the refs cost Duke the game, even though he would have had to make the FT)

9F