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  1. #621

    Gary Trent Jr.

    While he doesn't meet the criteria of being undrafted since he got drafted 37th by the Kings in 2018, Gary Trent Jr. is an example of someone who definitely made the right decision on betting on himself and going to the NBA instead of returning to Duke.

    I remember a lot of DBR members were upset that Trent didn't come back to Duke for his soph year and join the Zion, Barrett and Reddish freshman class but his dad wanted him to go pro and its clear another year at Duke wouldn't have helped his draft stock.

    His stats wouldn't have gotten much better playing with high usage players like Barrett and Zion.

    Now do I think his return would've helped Duke's chances to win in 2019? Absolutely, I think he was the missing piece due to his shooting and wing defense.

    It sucks for Duke fans but luckily for him he prioritized himself first after consulting his parents, the coaching staff, etc.

  2. #622
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Plyometrics, box jumps, Olympic lifts, sprints, high velocity/dynamic weight training.

    It's easy to improve vertical explosiveness if you want to put in the work, but how much time do you want to put into these exercise versus, say, working on your three point shot?
    Heck, when I was a kid many ages ago, comic books had ads in the back telling you how you could become a "real elevator man."

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Heck, when I was a kid many ages ago, comic books had ads in the back telling you how you could become a "real elevator man."
    Right next to the ad for the x-ray glasses.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    Again, I don't think this is right. There are players who declare for the NBA draft knowing they are not going to be drafted.
    Then why declare? They can just get an agent and sign with an overseas team and not bother with the draft.

  5. #625
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    Then why declare? They can just get an agent and sign with an overseas team and not bother with the draft.
    That is essentially what they are doing, but there is absolutely zero downside to entering your name in the draft.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    I guess I’m just not sure what you’re asking. I thought the question was whether our OAD guys who flame out would stay in prominent NBA or college positions versus our 4-year stars who didn’t stick in the NBA. I’d agree it’s unlikely that DJ Steward will ever be on our sidelines, but I have no idea whether he’ll end up on a sideline somewhere. It’s just way too early to tell.
    No my point or question was the value of staying at Duke for a few years versus OAD, to a marginal NBA player in terms if their post basketball career? Amile is a perfect example. Had Amile decided to take his shot in the G league right after his freshman year, would he be on the Duke staff today? Or on the Northwestern staff (if he played for Chris)? Amile played so many games on TV for Duke that people probably remember his name and face in a Duke uniform. Presumably he also forged deeper relationship with the staff and possibly the alumni base. Is that added value a legit factor to consider for a marginal player?

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    . Is that added value a legit factor to consider for a marginal player?
    I don’t know. I understand your train of thought, but I don’t think it’s been long enough to know where our marginal OADs will end up. Some of them are still playing.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    That is essentially what they are doing, but there is absolutely zero downside to entering your name in the draft.
    I disagree. I think they are hoping to get drafted, failing that signing a free agent contract with an NBA team, and failing that, take an overseas deal.

    I don't want to come across that I'm claiming playing overseas is a failure, I never said that once. That said, whether a player "knows" that they're playing overseas, they're going to prefer being drafted and they'll take an NBA free agent deal over an overseas deal should that opportunity present itself.

  9. #629
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    I disagree. I think they are hoping to get drafted, failing that signing a free agent contract with an NBA team, and failing that, take an overseas deal.

    I don't want to come across that I'm claiming playing overseas is a failure, I never said that once. That said, whether a player "knows" that they're playing overseas, they're going to prefer being drafted and they'll take an NBA free agent deal over an overseas deal should that opportunity present itself.
    Of course, but this conversation started when you said that without a clear path to "the pros" staying in college is the safer bet. You clarified that "the pros" does not include overseas. I think that makes the assertion wrong. Someone who is destined for a career overseas may be better off starting that career earlier. It's certainly not obvious that staying in college is somehow "safer"

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    Of course, but this conversation started when you said that without a clear path to "the pros" staying in college is the safer bet. You clarified that "the pros" does not include overseas. I think that makes the assertion wrong. Someone who is destined for a career overseas may be better off starting that career earlier. It's certainly not obvious that staying in college is somehow "safer"
    Then thats my fault, I didn't make my question clear. Actually I want to know if it "safer" for player to stay in college. This is the scenario I envision.

    1. You come in a fairly high rated recruit.
    2. You have a decent freshman campaign, but you didn't blow anyone away in terms of scoring ability or athleticism, in short, there isn't anything that immediately translates to NBA success at this specific moment.
    3. Mock drafts have you as a borderline 2nd rounder or free agent.
    4. It is most likely you end up playing professional basketball overseas (again, not bad, but not your first choice).

    The question is, is there data that suggests that player who fits that sort of profile, do they actually help their NBA chances by returning to play in college? Some believe in say, Trevor Keels position, he would have improved his draft stock by returning to Duke. granted his career isn't done but he seems to best check that box. On the other hand, you have someone like Matthew Hurt who returned for his sophomore year but was not drafted and didn't make an NBA team (IIRC). Its not clear if he came back as a jr or even a sr that it would have helped his NBA prospects at all.

    As I said before, there is no one size fits all example, but Im pretty sure there is enough data over the past decade of early entries to get an idea. Also I wonder if the players who are weighing these decisions have access to that data.

  11. #631
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Right next to the ad for the x-ray glasses.
    For some reason I could never get mine to work properly.

  12. #632
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    For some reason I could never get mine to work properly.
    Were you a teenage boy with lots of creativity?

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    .

    The question is, is there data that suggests that player who fits that sort of profile, do they actually help their NBA chances by returning to play in college?.
    I think in general guys who are limited by their measurables don’t improve their standing a lot unless they happen to hit a weird growth spurt. The players who move up are the Wendell Moore’s and Mark Williams’ who already have the measureables but are able to polish their game with the extra year.

    Keels was probably a little of both. He’s always going to be a below-the-rim player. If he had come back to Duke and displayed an elite 3-point shot? Maybe that could have moved him up. But it would have had to be a dramatic improvement.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    For some reason I could never get mine to work properly.
    To paraphrase: what we have here is failure of imagination.

  15. #635
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Plyometrics, box jumps, Olympic lifts, sprints, high velocity/dynamic weight training.

    It's easy to improve vertical explosiveness if you want to put in the work, but how much time do you want to put into these exercise versus, say, working on your three point shot?
    I recall reading that Bob Hurley had Bobby's team practice in Strength Shoes in high school, so I bought a pair. I used them summer between freshman and sophomore year of high school, and added about 6-7 inches to my vertical and could dunk after two months and maybe 40 workouts.

    I couldnt find a link for the old school version I had but this is on Amazon today -

    https://www.amazon.com/Jump99-Ultra-.../dp/B0871P7HH3

  16. #636
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hillsborough,nc
    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    To paraphrase: what we have here is failure of imagination.
    Just bought a case of mallo cups and smoothies.
    Show me the play money.

  17. #637
    Good news coming

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke102452 View Post
    Good news coming
    Link or it didn't happen.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by jgehtland View Post
    I recommend to anybody who hasn't already to read "Game", Grant Hill's autobiography. Grant is the living embodiment of staying 4 years in college. He clearly does not regret doing so, and clearly has benefited from it in many ways. And his ties to Duke and the community are stronger than ever.

    And he clearly states, multiple times, that college players don't get anything out of staying in school *when it comes to their basketball career*. And if that career is the most important thing to a young man, then the choice seems obvious. Now, every player has different things that matter to them, just like every student.
    Grant Hill is exceptional in [checks notes] every way imaginable. Of course, he didn’t get there by himself, but he is still exceptional, even in the context of an institution like Duke that is filled with exceptional people.

    The ACC was really lucky to have people like Hill and Duncan stay 4 years. And I am sure that both of them would say they were lucky for how they developed over those four years, before they went on to have successful professional careers.

    I wonder if *any* talent like Hill or Timmy would stay in college for 4 years these day.
    Carolina delenda est

  20. #640
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Grant Hill is exceptional in [checks notes] every way imaginable. Of course, he didn’t get there by himself, but he is still exceptional, even in the context of an institution like Duke that is filled with exceptional people.

    The ACC was really lucky to have people like Hill and Duncan stay 4 years. And I am sure that both of them would say they were lucky for how they developed over those four years, before they went on to have successful professional careers.

    I wonder if *any* talent like Hill or Timmy would stay in college for 4 years these day.
    It's a different era now. I'd say the chances of Hill or Duncan staying four years these days is approximately 0.00%

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