NCAAM: Duke 52, Tennessee 65 Post-Game Thread

[CDu]

Ya think Henry Coleman would have helped tonight...he'd be a senior I believe.

Coleman would be a junior. And yes, he would have helped in this type of game.

[mkirsh]

Coleman would be a junior. And yes, he would have helped in this type of game.

Only because Mitchell was out. And even then I’m not sure he could play the 3 like Mitchell, so only would have taken minutes from Flip.

[Duke76]

Coleman would be a junior. And yes, he would have helped in this type of game.

Jon, should try and get him to transfer back, imo...cause this trend of more physical play in march is not going away...actually it's always been there and I can think of a few of years where we got knock out in pivotal games because of it

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ya think Henry Coleman would have helped tonight...he'd be a senior I believe.

Pretty sure this would have been Zion's senior season, as long as we are playing this game.

I suspect Williamson would have had something to say about the Tennessee Bully Ball.

But I also suspect we would not have been a five seed.

[Acymetric]

Jon, should try and get him to transfer back, imo...cause this trend of more physical play in march is not going away...actually it's always been there and I can think of a few of years where we got knock out in pivotal games because of it

Gotta recruit the biggest, strongest, meanest guys we can find and tell them they're expected to pick up at least one flagrant per game, apparently. Someone see if they can find John Chaney's notebook.

[Duke76]

Only because Mitchell was out. And even then I’m not sure he could play the 3 like Mitchell, so only would have taken minutes from Flip.

i was thinking more of him at the center position subbing for Lively...Young was of no use in this game...not big enough

[duke2x]

Unfortunately, this game is the result of getting a 5 seed as opposed to a 2 or 3. We had to play an Elite 8 quality game in the second round. And against an Elite 8 quality team, it’s hard to win with a surprise injury, foul trouble to your most indispensable player, and a bad shooting team making tough 3s all game.

I've seen TN now and then throughout the year, and TN has been overrated all year. Look at their whole resume without the SEC/ESPN bias. They were never a top 10 team and looked more like VT or Wake than an Elite 8 team in the NCAAs--not that Duke looked deserved to win yesterday. To be equally fair, we have tended to overvalue Duke's non-conference losses as did the Committee.

KS (out): Blown out in most of their losses but never really punished for it by the media or polls. I'll agree the B12 was the deepest and best conference, but the margins have concerned me for weeks. They should have been a 3-4-5 like Duke without the media propping them up.
Purdue (out): Won a bunch of close games (10-2) on the year that really boosted them from the 3-4-5 line where they belonged. Painter gets an F- for the FDU game. They had an extremely favorable draw to the 2nd weekend.

Duke did not play a great team all year. Prognosticating the top 2 lines is very hard to do 1 year in advance, and Duke's schedule is locked up early with the MTE, Champions, and need to satisfy donors with a game in NYC better than LIU or Hofstra. Duke could have easily stayed on the 8/9 line with the injuries. I'm proud this team won the ACC (should be two titles) and went undefeated at home. I also agree with the above post that Duke needs to reliably play 8-9 P5 players across the board. The challenge is finding portal players and recruits that fit that role and admissions standards.

[Phredd3]

There weren’t any “obvious F1s”. The closest was the first foul on their center. Had it been a few inches higher, it would have been an F1. The elbow Flip caught to the eye was when Aidoo was pulling down a rebound, and was not a foul at all (just bad luck).

Completely disagree about both of these. The elbow was an obvious F1 as it was. I'm really surprised they didn't even review it. He went out of his way to throw that elbow, and it was therefore practically the definition of "unnecessary contact". It doesn't matter whether or not it was a few inches higher. Unnecessary contact is a flagrant 1.

As for Aidoo's rebound, I certainly agree that it wasn't an F1. Aidoo didn't go out of his was to make contact. But he did make contact that was anything but "incidental", which it would have to be for it not to be a foul. It was a clear-as-day foul that simply wasn't whistled. As for bad luck, that's frankly irrelevant. If you accidentally fall down and inadvertently impede an opponent, that's still a foul, even though you basically had no control over it. Here, Aidoo didn't have any intent to damage Flip, but he contacts him and impedes him significantly. It's a clear foul, plain and simple.

[Acymetric]

As for bad luck, that's frankly irrelevant. If you accidentally fall down and inadvertently impede an opponent, that's still a foul, even though you basically had no control over it.

Maybe you used this example on purpose, but this exact thing also happened during the game and went uncalled.

[Phredd3]

Maybe you used this example on purpose, but this exact thing also happened during the game and went uncalled.

And it also got called once, as I recall.

[moonpie23]

it will be interesting to see if Tenn will be allowed to bully their way through the tournament ...I'm going to feel worse if all of a sudden they are called for their physical play...

[Duke76]

Completely disagree about both of these. The elbow was an obvious F1 as it was. I'm really surprised they didn't even review it. He went out of his way to throw that elbow, and it was therefore practically the definition of "unnecessary contact". It doesn't matter whether or not it was a few inches higher. Unnecessary contact is a flagrant 1.

As for Aidoo's rebound, I certainly agree that it wasn't an F1. Aidoo didn't go out of his was to make contact. But he did make contact that was anything but "incidental", which it would have to be for it not to be a foul. It was a clear-as-day foul that simply wasn't whistled. As for bad luck, that's frankly irrelevant. If you accidentally fall down and inadvertently impede an opponent, that's still a foul, even though you basically had no control over it. Here, Aidoo didn't have any intent to damage Flip, but he contacts him and impedes him significantly. It's a clear foul, plain and simple.

correct observation in my opinion, on the elbow to the chest. The guy has a smirk on his face as he is looking at Flip to make his attack..don't think they teach blocking out with an aggressive blow to the chest with your elbow...no selling of it by Flip at all, imo.

[Duke76]

it will be interesting to see if Tenn will be allowed to bully their way through the tournament ...I'm going to feel worse if all of a sudden they are called for their physical play...

they're almost guaranteed to lose the next game given our history of "the curse"

[rsvman]

Well, after a while to think about it, I'm going to go out on a limb and say something that nobody can disprove (therefore, it's true, as far as you can tell).

If Mitchell had been able to play, I believe this game would have gone down to the last two minutes fairly even and either team would have had a legitimate shot to win.



Here's the thought process: 1) Our defense is much better with Mitchell than without. Mitchell is also a far superior on-ball defender to Whitehead, and could have prevented (or at least made a lot more difficult) the barrage of threes near the end of the game.
2) We had developed team chemistry with Mitchell in the starting line-up, especially on the defensive end, but also offensively.
3) Whitehead had grown into his role as a quick scorer off the bench; when forced into the starting lineup he had to change his whole approach to the game, and he was not prepared to do so.
4) It would have given us one more body to absorb the physicality of the game, which would have meant that we wouldn't have been as tired going into the last five minutes, which means our shooting would have been more likely to be decent.
5) Mitchell would have forced more action at the rim, which might have (emphasis MIGHT) made the referees blow more whistles, which could have changed the tone of the game more toward basketball and away from football/rugby.


While nobody can say what would have happened if Mitchell had been healthy, and even I am not saying we would have won the game if Mitchell had been healthy, I feel confident that the game would have been (at worst) very close and would potentially have been there for the taking over the last two minutes. I have also, unapologetically, been perhaps the largest proponent of the importance of Mitchell to this team since the very beginning of the season.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

it will be interesting to see if Tenn will be allowed to bully their way through the tournament ...I'm going to feel worse if all of a sudden they are called for their physical play...

If I recall, FAU had some big guys. And FDU is used to scheming for those types of situations as they are extremely small.

I don’t know if Scheyer did this, but if I were coaching against them, I would get in the refs ears well before the game even started. Give them specific things to focus on. For the past few years I have suggested everyone do this about UNC’s (and particularly Bacot’s) illegal moving picks.

[Kewlswim]

I’m not sure this is the proper thread to post this. I absolutely hate the kind of basketball that Tennessee played. If this is the kind of basketball that the NCAA wants players to play, I think that it’s abysmal and ugly. It’s not this “men vs boys” I keep reading about, it was thugs being allowed thuggery no penalty for doing so.

I enjoy freedom of movement. I want beautiful basketball with players being almost balletic as they move back-and-forth. Yes, there’s contact, but not like yesterday. I hope the NCAA takes a good hard look at yesterday’s game where it seemed like one team was being bludgeoned and the other team that wasn’t fighting back in that way was being penalized for it. To me the game was almost unwatchable. It wasn’t just that I rooted for Duke, It was a game that wasn’t a game to me, it was almost Rollerball without skates. When Flip was was hit across the face and needed a corner man I thought it’s time for him to go to the association because at least there he’ll get some protection.

[Rich]

The game reminded me of the 2006 tourney game against LSU when they beat the hell out of JJ. I've been lamenting for years the state of college bball. It's just too physical and with the # of refs across the country, too inconsistent. The NBA product is sooooo much better to watch, even though I prefer the idea of college bball so much more because of the team concept and, frankly, because the players aren't as good so they miss more shots. Unfortunately, the NCAA has bigger problems and doesn't have the leadership to address this.

[CDu]

Completely disagree about both of these. The elbow was an obvious F1 as it was. I'm really surprised they didn't even review it. He went out of his way to throw that elbow, and it was therefore practically the definition of "unnecessary contact". It doesn't matter whether or not it was a few inches higher. Unnecessary contact is a flagrant 1.

As for Aidoo's rebound, I certainly agree that it wasn't an F1. Aidoo didn't go out of his was to make contact. But he did make contact that was anything but "incidental", which it would have to be for it not to be a foul. It was a clear-as-day foul that simply wasn't whistled. As for bad luck, that's frankly irrelevant. If you accidentally fall down and inadvertently impede an opponent, that's still a foul, even though you basically had no control over it. Here, Aidoo didn't have any intent to damage Flip, but he contacts him and impedes him significantly. It's a clear foul, plain and simple.

Completely disagree on both counts, especially the second one. That was the definition of incidental. The guy was pulling down a rebound. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He had as much right to that space as Flip did. It sucks that Flip’s face was in traffic, but that is a normal basketball play. Contact sometimes happens in the natural flow of play. If we start adjudicating F1s on natural basketball plays, we are no longer playing basketball.

The earlier elbow to the chest was closer to an F1. But it was a basketball play and it wasn’t above the shoulders. It was a foul, not an F1.

[Phredd3]

If we start adjudicating F1s on natural basketball plays, we are no longer playing basketball.

We disagree, and we aren't going to convince each other, and I can accept that. However, I explicitly said that Aidoo's rebound was NOT an F1. Perhaps you intended to group that statement with the later assertions about the elbow? In any case, it's worth making that clear.

[Duke76]

Completely disagree on both counts, especially the second one. That was the definition of incidental. The guy was pulling down a rebound. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He had as much right to that space as Flip did. It sucks that Flip’s face was in traffic, but that is a normal basketball play. Contact sometimes happens in the natural flow of play. If we start adjudicating F1s on natural basketball plays, we are no longer playing basketball.

The earlier elbow to the chest was closer to an F1. But it was a basketball play and it wasn’t above the shoulders. It was a foul, not an F1.

Question, are F1 meant for just above the shoulders? Wasn't aware of that one. How about a Chris Paul "punch to the gut", is that not a F1? It was an intentional shot to the chest with an elbow, not my definition of a basketball play nor most imo.