2023 NCAAM East Regional Thread (ǝnpɹnԀ, ǝʇʇǝnbɹɐW, ʇS sɐsuɐʞ, ǝǝssǝuuǝ┴)

[scottdude8]

This is something that Michigan fans love to say, but it isn't really true.

Jackson didn't play huge minutes at MSU because he was #3 in the nation in foul rate. For all players. He couldn't stop fouling. Izzo usually had to manage his minutes so he could finish out games. That issue has followed him to the NBA.

For that Syracuse game, Jackson had never seen anything like that zone and was scared to death. He wasn't effective. Izzo could have played him more but Jackson has admitted that he had no idea what was going on that day.

Plenty of freshman have played big roles and minutes at MSU. Gary Harris, Miles Bridges, Kalin Lucas, Max Christie just last year. Cassius Winston played a big role as a freshman.

Don't want to turn this into an MSU/UM flame war but what is said above is not the case historically.

dukemsu

Thanks for your perspective here… you are, of course, right on all counts. I had never heard about Jackson’s postgame comments after the Cuse game, but I can tell you the MSU fans surrounding me in Detroit were all flummoxed during the game, haha. I will say that while many freshmen, like those you highlight, have played big roles, they haven’t really been OAD type guys like Kentucky utilizes… from my (biased) recollection people thought Christie underperformed expectations (hence why he fell to the second round), although Bridges was great (and it was a coup that Izzo kept him for a second year).

See, Blue and Green CAN be civil!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Izzo is one of the Old Guard of coaches - last of a dying breed.

I get the sense MSU under Izzo play better as an underdog than as the higher seed. As the favorite, it's less clear cut that he's as sharp.

[dukemsu]

Thanks for your perspective here… you are, of course, right on all counts. I had never heard about Jackson’s postgame comments after the Cuse game, but I can tell you the MSU fans surrounding me in Detroit were all flummoxed during the game, haha. I will say that while many freshmen, like those you highlight, have played big roles, they haven’t really been OAD type guys like Kentucky utilizes… from my (biased) recollection people thought Christie underperformed expectations (hence why he fell to the second round), although Bridges was great (and it was a coup that Izzo kept him for a second year).

See, Blue and Green CAN be civil!

Indeed we can! Thanks for the response!

Christie, for whatever reason, simply didn't shoot well last season. He had the size and he was featured heavily in actions, but the shots just didn't go in. Weird case. Glad he's doing well in LA. Great kid.

MSU really hasn't gotten the OAD types other than Jackson and Bridges lately. They chased Isaiah Stewart adn Vernon Carey heavily. Xavier Booker comes next season, but he's probably not a high impact player immediately.

dukemsu

[tommy]

If Izzo coached Kentucky they would have at least two to three more championships.

One of the most overrated coaches in the history of the college game. He's overachieved a few times, sure, but he's also underachieved a TON of years. Though the narrative is set in the media's and the public's mind that he's a genius in the tournament, the actual results (including but not limited to his grand total of ONE championship) don't support it.

[CDu]

I will say that while many freshmen, like those you highlight, have played big roles, they haven’t really been OAD type guys like Kentucky utilizes… from my (biased) recollection people thought Christie underperformed expectations (hence why he fell to the second round), although Bridges was great (and it was a coup that Izzo kept him for a second year).

MSU really hasn't gotten the OAD types other than Jackson and Bridges lately. They chased Isaiah Stewart adn Vernon Carey heavily. Xavier Booker comes next season, but he's probably not a high impact player immediately.

Yeah, I think the argument that MSU hasn't produced many one-and-done players is not a reflection on the coach's preference but rather the success on the recruiting trail. There are only so many one-and-done level freshman available, and MSU has struggled to successfully recruit those guys. They certainly aren't opposed to having them or emphasizing them when they do get one. It's just that Duke has been so greedy with acquiring them that it gets harder for other programs to land them.

They've had just four top-20 recruits in the past 8 recruiting cycles, and just two of them were top-10. Of those 4, two went one-and-done (Jackson and Christie) and a third was good enough to be one-and-done but surprised everyone and came back (Bridges). Only Langford stayed beyond the first year, and he still started 27 games as a freshman.

The Spartans have largely lived in the 30-100 range of the recruiting rankings... the kind of territory that doesn't even definitely crack the rotation at Duke. So it's sort of unfair to label them as anti-freshman talent. It's just hard for programs to produce freshman stars if they don't land elite freshman talent.

[kako]

A lot of anti-Tennessee posts seen. I personally don't hate them (it's not like they cheated or played with ineligible players, etc.). They play a different style of ball than Duke. It's rougher, sure. But the refs allowed the game to be called like that. Quite honestly, Duke could not adjust. They didn't bully back, and they couldn't fight through it. Ultimately, the Vols just simply forced more turnovers, hit the boards better and hit more shots than Duke did. Good teams play a style of ball that wins. Great teams can win with a variety of styles. This Duke team could play up-tempo or down-tempo, but the physical nature of this game wasn't something they could deal with. You can't easily force a more finesse tempo, you have to deal with the more physical one when it comes up. And they had Nkamhoua, who had an amazing game offensively. He averages 11, but scored 27. He hit the shots that they needed to win, and Duke couldn't stop him. No one (or ones) could match him on Duke's side.

One can disparage UT, Barnes and the style of play all they want. But the fact remains that it is a style of play that is played. One can hope the refs call the game like you want them to, but they may not. And if they don't, a team either fights through it and wins or doesn't and loses. And Duke lost. It sucks, but that's how it works. Perhaps it would be good to play that kind of game in the regular season, even if it's a loss.

Duke swept Carolina, and Carolina is the ultimate NCAA MBB bust by being pre-season #1 and not making the tournament (just had to say that, because it feels better to say that what I said above).

9F

[rsvman]

If Mark Few coached Kentucky they would probably have won at least one more title. He seems to get the most out of his talent, and he makes better in-game adjustments.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A lot of anti-Tennessee posts seen. I personally don't hate them (it's not like they cheated or played with ineligible players, etc.). They play a different style of ball than Duke. It's rougher, sure. But the refs allowed the game to be called like that. Quite honestly, Duke could not adjust. They didn't bully back, and they couldn't fight through it. Ultimately, the Vols just simply forced more turnovers, hit the boards better and hit more shots than Duke did. Good teams play a style of ball that wins. Great teams can win with a variety of styles. This Duke team could play up-tempo or down-tempo, but the physical nature of this game wasn't something they could deal with. You can't easily force a more finesse tempo, you have to deal with the more physical one when it comes up. And they had Nkamhoua, who had an amazing game offensively. He averages 11, but scored 27. He hit the shots that they needed to win, and Duke couldn't stop him. No one (or ones) could match him on Duke's side.

One can disparage UT, Barnes and the style of play all they want. But the fact remains that it is a style of play that is played. One can hope the refs call the game like you want them to, but they may not. And if they don't, a team either fights through it and wins or doesn't and loses. And Duke lost. It sucks, but that's how it works. Perhaps it would be good to play that kind of game in the regular season, even if it's a loss.

Duke swept Carolina, and Carolina is the ultimate NCAA MBB bust by being pre-season #1 and not making the tournament (just had to say that, because it feels better to say that what I said above).

9F

I agree with this post.

Tennessee didn't do anything unethical. They played basketball. The refs let the play and be incredibly physical.

Is that frustrating? Absolutely. Does it mean their players are jerks? No. Am I glad Duke doesn't employ that strategy. God yes - it's excruciating to watch. It's like playing UVA with extra elbows and injuries.

[SouthernDukie]

I agree with this post.

Tennessee didn't do anything unethical. They played basketball. The refs let the play and be incredibly physical.

Is that frustrating? Absolutely. Does it mean their players are jerks? No. Am I glad Duke doesn't employ that strategy. God yes - it's excruciating to watch. It's like playing UVA with extra elbows and injuries.

I guess if trying to concuss players in order to intimidate and win is ethical play, then you are correct. Personally I disagree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I guess if trying to concuss players in order to intimidate and win is ethical play, then you are correct. Personally I disagree.

Every team pushes for advantage. Shooters kick their legs out. Interior players bump with their hips while their arms are straight up. Players draw charges by flopping.

It's all gamesmanship. Some of it is more palatable than others.

Fact is, we got "knocked back" and didn't respond. Should we have gotten more calls? Absolutely. Did it lose us the game? Maybe. Could we have responded better? Yes. Would having Mitchell have helped? Almost certainly.

Personally I love full court press D, spread the floor offense, three pointers and lob city. It's fun to watch and techincal, pretty basketball.

[SouthernDukie]

Every team pushes for advantage. Shooters kick their legs out. Interior players bump with their hips while their arms are straight up. Players draw charges by flopping.

It's all gamesmanship. Some of it is more palatable than others.

All those examples you cited above are far less dangerous than actually throwing elbows to peoples heads. There’s a line that Tennessee crossed on Saturday. And the refs were just as unethical as Tennessee’s coach and players.

I hate to say I agree with Seth Greenberg on anything, but he is right. It was a mugging!

[tommy]

Every team pushes for advantage. Shooters kick their legs out. Interior players bump with their hips while their arms are straight up. Players draw charges by flopping.

It's all gamesmanship. Some of it is more palatable than others.

Fact is, we got "knocked back" and didn't respond. Should we have gotten more calls? Absolutely. Did it lose us the game? Maybe. Could we have responded better? Yes. Would having Mitchell have helped? Almost certainly.

Personally I love full court press D, spread the floor offense, three pointers and lob city. It's fun to watch and techincal, pretty basketball.

Do you think this type of play falls into the category of "gamesmanship" or headhunting/thuggery/dirty play? If the former, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1637173563428855810

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Do you think this type of play falls into the category of "gamesmanship" or headhunting/thuggery/dirty play? If the former, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1637173563428855810

Oh come on, I'm not defending Tennessee's play as being clean. I'm just saying it's a strategy. It's up to the refs to call the fouls.

They should have been called for literally 3 or 4 times as many fouls as they were called for. That's not Tennessee's job.

[MarkD83]

Oh come on, I'm not defending Tennessee's play as being clean. I'm just saying it's a strategy. It's up to the refs to call the fouls.

They should have been called for literally 3 or 4 times as many fouls as they were called for. That's not Tennessee's job.

I'm trying to move on but will chime in on Mtn Devil's side.

The video posted on twitter did show a very physical box out, but the refs did call Plavsic for his 2nd foul on that play.

In looking at the play-by-play and stats (I really can't stand watching the game again), the reason for the loss was Duke not scoring in the last 5 minutes of the 1st half and then having Nkamhoua score 14 points over his season average including doing this very efficiently (10-13 / 3-4 threes).

Jon handled it well in his post-game press conference and his comments are another reason I believe Duke has found an excellent coach to follow coach K.

https://volswire.usatoday.com/lists/...ennessee-vols/

[Phredd3]

In looking at the play-by-play and stats (I really can't stand watching the game again), the reason for the loss was Duke not scoring in the last 5 minutes of the 1st half and then having Nkamhoua score 14 points over his season average including doing this very efficiently (10-13 / 3-4 threes).

This last part is the main reason to lament Mark Mitchell's absence. I think if Mark is in there, Nkamhoua isn't nearly as open for those shots. He hit some contested ones because it was that kind of night, but I think he'd have had a tougher time of it had Mark been the one with a hand in his face, and had there been just an extra rotation player just to keep us fresher.

[kako]

I agree with this post.

Tennessee didn't do anything unethical. They played basketball. The refs let the play and be incredibly physical.

Is that frustrating? Absolutely. Does it mean their players are jerks? No. Am I glad Duke doesn't employ that strategy. God yes - it's excruciating to watch. It's like playing UVA with extra elbows and injuries.

For the record, I'm siding with Mtn Devil for his responses to other posters, and not just Mtn agreed with my post. The refs did let play occur as it occurred. Sometimes they called a foul, but sometimes not. Nothing was "unethical", I think that's an inappropriate term. Creating false classes for your athletes to take so that they can get fake grades - that's unethical. Being EXTREMELY physical (I know it was labeled a "mugging" but we all know that's hyperbole from a talking head) is not unethical. I wish fouls were called. But they weren't. And Duke didn't/couldn't adjust to the style of play. Perhaps if they were all seniors, they would have. But they didn't. K used to say every team needed a MF-er. This team did not have one, due to its youth and lack of pulling one from the portal. Perhaps that needs to be done in the future.

We swept Carolina and won the ACC Tournament (I keep saying that, it makes me feel better)

9F

[jv001]

For the record, I'm siding with Mtn Devil for his responses to other posters, and not just Mtn agreed with my post. The refs did let play occur as it occurred. Sometimes they called a foul, but sometimes not. Nothing was "unethical", I think that's an inappropriate term. Creating false classes for your athletes to take so that they can get fake grades - that's unethical. Being EXTREMELY physical (I know it was labeled a "mugging" but we all know that's hyperbole from a talking head) is not unethical. I wish fouls were called. But they weren't. And Duke didn't/couldn't adjust to the style of play. Perhaps if they were all seniors, they would have. But they didn't. K used to say every team needed a MF-er. This team did not have one, due to its youth and lack of pulling one from the portal. Perhaps that needs to be done in the future.

We swept Carolina and won the ACC Tournament (I keep saying that, it makes me feel better)

9F

I understand what you and MtnDevil are saying. The dirty play is on the refs and the corrupt NCAA for turning college basketball into rugby matches. The NBA did something about that type of play because it's not a game most people want to watch. But to think that the NCAA will do something about it, we're kidding ourselves. They lost all credibility when they didn't punish the Cheating school down the road for years of academic fraud. They will sit on their hands and do absolutely nothing.

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I understand what you and MtnDevil are saying. The dirty play is on the refs and the corrupt NCAA for turning college basketball into rugby matches. The NBA did something about that type of play because it's not a game most people want to watch. But to think that the NCAA will do something about it, we're kidding ourselves. They lost all credibility when they didn't punish the Cheating school down the road for years of academic fraud. They will sit on their hands and do absolutely nothing.

GoDuke!

There's lots to criticize the NCAA for. And sure. I suppose the ultimate responsibility lies with them for refs. But I don't think this individual game has much at all to do with the NCAA. And I definitely agree that hoing the NCAA will address it would be an exercise in folly.

One of two things will happen - the next games will be officiated completely differently and Tennessee will head home. Or, they will continue to allow them to run roughshod over teams into the Final Four.

[jv001]

There's lots to criticize the NCAA for. And sure. I suppose the ultimate responsibility lies with them for refs. But I don't think this individual game has much at all to do with the NCAA. And I definitely agree that hoing the NCAA will address it would be an exercise in folly.

One of two things will happen - the next games will be officiated completely differently and Tennessee will head home. Or, they will continue to allow them to run roughshod over teams into the Final Four.

The Vols may be the worst at rough play, but Houston, Auburn and the Cavs are not far behind the Vols. If I'm not mistaken, the NCAA said they were going to change the way games were to be officiated. They wanted freedom of movement, but I'm still waiting for that change.

Go/Duke!

[SavDukeGrad]

The Vols may be the worst at rough play, but Houston, Auburn and the Cavs are not far behind the Vols. If I'm not mistaken, the NCAA said they were going to change the way games were to be officiated. They wanted freedom of movement, but I'm still waiting for that change.

Go/Duke!

I don’t know about Houston and Auburn, but to my untrained eye, there is a huge difference between UVA’s style of play and what we experienced on Saturday.

I know it’s tough to play UVa, but it’s not impossible to game plan against them. I would guess we have been successful against them at least 50% of the time over the last 10 years. But they are not a dirty team, and I don’t remember many flagrants playing against them.

This is in comparison to what we experienced Saturday. Tennessee’s big guy threw Kyle down twice in the first 90 seconds. As Jay Bilas said, when the refs went to the monitor and didn’t assess a flagrant on either play, they were essentially saying “go ahead”. Then a few minutes later, Kyle and Tyrese were both hit in the head on the same play! They reviewed the play against Tyrese, but I don’t think they even called a foul on the play against Kyle, despite the fact that he was bleeding all over the court and his face was split open. That was 3 flagrant reviews in the first 5 minutes! I have never seen anything like that before! The fact that the refs didn’t assess a flagrant on any of those plays is mind boggling to me. And imo, that is very different than the way UVa plays.

As Seth Greenberg said, forget about freedom of movement, you can’t run any offense at all if the refs are going to allow that level of physicality.