Alabama star Brandon Miller invovled in murder investigation

[Acymetric]

If my friend called me at 1 am and said "bring me my gun to this public place, I am in danger" I would say "why don't you remove yourself from that situation?" Isn't that a normal response? Rather than bringing them a gun knowing that it will escalate the situation? I know that in some circles perhaps you will "lose face" by walking away, but that is not a value system that I embrace. And if I was running an NBA team, I don't think I would want someone on my team who embraced that value system either, as they are likely to run into future trouble where the nuances of the law are able to keep them out of jail.

Just curious - have you ever been in a situation where you had to defend yourself or came close to needing to defend yourself? I happened to actually be in one yesterday on an NYC subway with my kids. And I got off the train and moved to a different car (and notified the police officers who were standing on the platform). Not that I had the means to do much anyway, but rather than be a hero, that is usually the preferred option.

To be clear, these guys weren't heroes. A young woman is dead because these guys wouldn't take no for an answer from her or her boyfriend who was also injured in the shooting. I don't say allegedly because my understanding is Miles confessed upon learning there was footage?

Glad you and your kids got away unharmed and I do agree with your point overall.

[Southgate0809]

If my friend called me at 1 am and said "bring me my gun to this public place, I am in danger" I would say "why don't you remove yourself from that situation?" Isn't that a normal response? Rather than bringing them a gun knowing that it will escalate the situation? I know that in some circles perhaps you will "lose face" by walking away, but that is not a value system that I embrace. And if I was running an NBA team, I don't think I would want someone on my team who embraced that value system either, as they are likely to run into future trouble where the nuances of the law are able to keep them out of jail.

Just curious - have you ever been in a situation where you had to defend yourself or came close to needing to defend yourself? I happened to actually be in one yesterday on an NYC subway with my kids. And I got off the train and moved to a different car (and notified the police officers who were standing on the platform). Not that I had the means to do much anyway, but rather than be a hero, that is usually the preferred option.

The smartest thing to do is always to leave, and in some states, you're legally required to if you have the chance. There may be a situation where you get into an argument at a bar and the other person threatens to kill you. In my opinion, the smart thing to do would be to leave and/or call the police. Some people don't see it that way. Some people would say that they aren't going to let that other person ruin their night, so they call their friend to bring them a gun just in case they need to defend themselves. If they wound up having to use it in self-defense later as predicted, I believe they are still justified under the law in some states. I don't necessarily agree with those laws, and just because it's legal doesn't mean it's morally right.

***Full disclosure, I'm not an attorney, or any kind of legal expert. That's just my understanding of how self-defense scenarios can be different in different places.

[tommy]

What's the chargeable crime?

As I’ve explained in two previous posts in this thread, and others have as well, depending on the totality of the facts that we are nowhere close to having before us, but some of which we appear to know, the crime of aiding and abetting murder.

[tommy]

Yeah I think it's easy to cherry pick an example of a celebrity/athlete getting off easy, when the reality is probably that average Joe Schmo criminals get off on technicalities all the time or because there just wasn't enough evidence there.

No they don’t. It’s actually very rare. On TV and in the movies, sure. Not in real life.

[Southgate0809]

No they don’t. It’s actually very rare. On TV and in the movies, sure. Not in real life.

Well many Law and Order episodes are actually based on real cases, so I think we can pretty much consider them to be factual.

[tommy]

From my experience I can tell you it is quite likely that there are text messages and/or social media communications by one, two, or all three of these guys - and maybe others as well- that are filling in a lot of blanks concerning various of these guys’ knowledge and intent and how the whole situation went down. If the police don’t already have those, they will soon.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

The smartest thing to do is always to leave, and in some states, you're legally required to if you have the chance. There may be a situation where you get into an argument at a bar and the other person threatens to kill you. In my opinion, the smart thing to do would be to leave and/or call the police. Some people don't see it that way. Some people would say that they aren't going to let that other person ruin their night, so they call their friend to bring them a gun just in case they need to defend themselves. If they wound up having to use it in self-defense later as predicted, I believe they are still justified under the law in some states. I don't necessarily agree with those laws, and just because it's legal doesn't mean it's morally right.

***Full disclosure, I'm not an attorney, or any kind of legal expert. That's just my understanding of how self-defense scenarios can be different in different places.

I'm very glad I don't live in one of those states. And that I am generally able to avoid those types of situations, or am willing to remove myself from them if they do occur.

That being said, I am guessing we are treading into territory that Mods probably are not very happy with.

[cato]

The claim that there is no chargeable crime here is insane and pretty clearly wasn't correct even based on the initially reported facts if you read the description of the handoff.

You say it is insane not to charge Miller with murder. What are the facts that support a charge of murder under Alabama law here?

[OldPhiKap]

Ok, you made me doubt myself but here it is from the original article linked:



https://www.al.com/news/2023/02/dari...e-testify.html

Asked by AL.com why Miller was not charged, Tuscaloosa chief deputy D.A. Paula Whitley said, “That’s not a question I can answer. There’s nothing we could charge him with,’' according to the law, she said.

She knows more about Alabama law than I do, and she has no reason not to charge if able. Tuscaloosa PD is distinct from the University and, like many other “town and gown” relationships, their dance is rocky at best. Given that this is less than a block off the Strip and within stumbling distance of the football stadium (right near Gallette’s for those who have been to T-Town) the DA absolutely is looking to hammer anyone they can.

Oates letting the kid play and stay on the team, by contrast, is inexcusable. And a stark contrast to how Nick Saban runs the football side.

Very sad story for all concerned.

[Southgate0809]

She knows more about Alabama law than I do, and she has no reason not to charge if able. Tuscaloosa PD is distinct from the University and, like many other “town and gown” relationships, their dance is rocky at best.

Oates letting the kid play and stay on the team, by contrast, is inexcusable. And a stark contrast to how Nick Saban runs the football side.

Very sad story for all concerned.

It's baffling how he wasn't at least suspended as soon as they heard out about it. Maybe they eventually talk to the police and learn that he was cleared, then you end the suspension. But the first thing you heard was that your star player delivered a gun that was used for a murder, and no suspension?

[OldPhiKap]

It's baffling how he wasn't at least suspended as soon as they heard out about it. Maybe they eventually talk to the police and learn that he was cleared, then you end the suspension. But the first thing you heard was that your star player delivered a gun that was used for a murder, and no suspension?

Absolutely agree, I join in condemning Oates not defending him.

[Acymetric]

You say it is insane not to charge Miller with murder. What are the facts that support a charge of murder under Alabama law here?

Why are you treating "chargeable crime" as synonymous with murder? He would be charged as an accessory. This is what accessory charges exist for. The posts suggesting an accessory charges aren't available here are missing or misunderstanding some of the presented facts so far, which I have tried to help clarify with some of my other posts.

[grad_devil]

Well legally speaking, a 20 year old living on a college campus is allowed to have a gun. This right won't be taken away just because the student is a basketball or football player.

Not according to this college's policy. The Dangerous Weapon and Firearm Policy (effective date of 1 Jan 2023) of the University of Alabama states:

Except as otherwise stated in this policy, the University prohibits the possession, transportation, and use of firearms and other dangerous weapons on campus at any time.

What's the penalty for students who violate this policy?

Student violations may be addressed in accordance with the Code of Student Conduct as well as other applicable policies and may include sanctions, up to and including expulsion.

I work on a college campus that has a similar policy. I can remember at least three (3) instances where students had firearms on campus, and in all of those cases the students were expelled.

[Phredd3]

What's the chargeable crime?

From my experience I can tell you it is quite likely that there are text messages and/or social media communications by one, two, or all three of these guys - and maybe others as well- that are filling in a lot of blanks concerning various of these guys’ knowledge and intent and how the whole situation went down. If the police don’t already have those, they will soon.

The problem, though, is the phrase "chargeable crime" (or the words quoted in the original article, "There’s nothing we could charge him with."). It doesn't necessarily mean that no statute exists which permits him to be accused of a crime. I could well mean that the prosecutors have examined the evidence and have determined they have insufficient evidence to prove one or more necessary elements of a crime (usually intent) beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes, it is odd phrasing to to say it that way, but it makes it sound like it's a legal issue and prevents reporters from disagreeing with your conclusion at a press conference.

[dudog84]

Well many Law and Order episodes are actually based on real cases, so I think we can pretty much consider them to be factual.

C'mon. Many, many of these dramas, both on TV and movies, are "Based on a true story". They very clearly don't say "Is a true story". There's a very good reason. They're embellished. In many cases greatly embellished, because the law and courtrooms are boring 99% of the time. And who wants to watch that?

[Acymetric]

She knows more about Alabama law than I do, and she has no reason not to charge if able. Tuscaloosa PD is distinct from the University and, like many other “town and gown” relationships, their dance is rocky at best. Given that this is less than a block off the Strip and within stumbling distance of the football stadium (right near Gallette’s for those who have been to T-Town) the DA absolutely is looking to hammer anyone they can.

Oates letting the kid play and stay on the team, by contrast, is inexcusable. And a stark contrast to how Nick Saban runs the football side.

Very sad story for all concerned.

For an example of a prosecutor being wrong about the law, check out the current Rust* case. "The DA said so" will never be enough for me. Mike Nifong was a DA once.

I do totally agree that Oats comes off as despicable here.

*Talking specifically about the now removed gun enhancement, not the case overall.

[jv001]

To be clear, these guys weren't heroes. A young woman is dead because these guys wouldn't take no for an answer from her or her boyfriend who was also injured in the shooting. I don't say allegedly because my understanding is Miles confessed upon learning there was footage?

Glad you and your kids got away unharmed and I do agree with your point overall.

What were the young woman and boyfriend saying no about? I'm not up to speed on this as some are.

[tommy]

Why are you treating "chargeable crime" as synonymous with murder? He would be charged as an accessory. This is what accessory charges exist for. The posts suggesting an accessory charges aren't available here are missing or misunderstanding some of the presented facts so far, which I have tried to help clarify with some of my other posts.

You are confusing or conflating two very different legal concepts which have very very different penal consequences. If Miller provided the gun with the requisite knowledge and intent to aid the shooter, help him commit the crime etc, or helped block the victims obvious escape route before the shooting happened (again with the requisite intent) he would be guilty of aiding and abetting the murder, not accessory. The penalty for aiding and abetting a crime is (at least in any jurisdictions with which I’m familiar) the same as if you were the direct perpetrator — here the same as if Youre the shooter. Obviously huge penalty for murder

On the other hand, doing something to help the perpetrator only AFTER he has committed a crime, with the intent to help him escape accountability for that crime, such as helping him get away (when you were t involved with the planning of the crime or otherwise involved in its execution) is called being an accessory. That has a MUCH lower penalty than aiding and abetting the same crime. Aiding and abetting helps the shooter commit the crime in the first place. Huge penalty. Accessory helps him only after the crime has already been committed. Less penalty.

Let’s keep our terminology straight. It matters.

[Norman Pfyster]

Some people are assuming that the authorities made different charging decisions based on the relative value of Miller and Miles to the Alabama basketball program. I am skeptical that they fine-tuned their analysis so carefully. Instead, I think the most likely explanation is that they have much more compelling evidence that Miles committed a crime and not enough to charge Miller. The distinctions between the reported actions of the two players are obvious.

None of this helps explain why Oats handled this so poorly. I think the obvious explanation there is that he doesn’t (yet?) have a good enough filter and is open about how he views things like this with the media. My guess is that he will get better at toeing the line rhetorically and not change at all in how he views the world.

Miles apparently confessed to providing the gun to the shooter, and evidence was presented that he knew that Davis intended to shoot (or at least threaten) the guy he shot, making the case against him much clearer.

Regarding Oats, assuming he wasn't being disingenuous yesterday, he was likely unaware of the new evidence presented at the hearing regarding Miller's involvement in the crime, and probably misunderstood the range of what "witness" might mean to the police (someone can be involved and still be a witness). He said in his follow-up that he had been told by police "repeatedly" that the other student-athletes present (there was another basketball player besides Miles and Miller there) were not suspects and were only witnesses. He might have then assumed that Miller was only present at the scene and not involved otherwise. If he had been unaware of the new evidence coming out in the hearing, his initial statement in yesterday's press conference makes more sense.

[Acymetric]

Let’s keep our terminology straight. It matters.

Thank you for the correction, I completely agree.