Alabama star Brandon Miller invovled in murder investigation

[DukeTrinity11]

If Miller claims he had no idea why he wanted the gun in the middle of the night, then he is the dumbest human being on earth. It is somewhat ironic that Nick Saban is often attributed with the saying "nothing good happens after midnight" (I am fairly sure he did not originate the saying).

I was in Queens and Brooklyn last night so I am happy to send Cousin Vinny down if Miller needs legal help...

I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that just because someone wants their gun back in their possession that they intend to use it to commit a murder. Usually the far more likely reason is you want it for accountability of possession, immediate self defense or potential self defense purposes.

[JayZee]

I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt in my mind. I'm a firearms owner. I can picture borrowing a gun from my brother to take to the shooting range. If he texted me during the day and asked me to bring it back by his house, I would say "no problem." If he texted me at 1 in the morning and told me to bring it out to him in public, there would be questions asked. Maybe he asked questions and was lied to. That's the best benefit of the doubt I can give him. He's still probably ignorant in that situation, but so are all 19 year olds. If he asked questions and had any reason to think that weapon was going to be used to murder someone, he's guilty of a crime. If he didn't ask any questions at all, he may not technically be guilty of a crime, but he is still responsible for some wrongdoing, and the idea that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't even make any sense.

Edit: On second thought, it's also possible that he was very uncomfortable with the fact that he had possession of this gun. He may not have known that it was legal for him to do so and may have wanted to get it back to its owner as quickly as possible. Contacting his coach or someone trustworthy when he got the request at 1 in the morning would have been the better decision, but I can see a 19 year old acting out of fear in that situation.

Has any story mentioned that the gun was in Miller's possession prior to the ask? I read the situation as Miles calling Miller and saying - "get my gun and bring it to me" rather than "I'd like to have my gun back now"

[dudog84]

I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that just because someone wants their gun back in their possession that they intend to use it to commit a murder. Usually the far more likely reason is you want it for accountability of possession, immediate self defense or potential self defense purposes.

Seriously? Isn't the reasonable response to feeling in danger in a parking lot at 1:00 AM to be 'Get the hell out of the parking lot!'? Not 'Bring me a gun. I'll just chill 'til you get here'.

[Southgate0809]

I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that just because someone wants their gun back in their possession that they intend to use it to commit a murder. Usually the far more likely reason is you want it for accountability of possession, immediate self defense or potential self defense purposes.

Yeah, I'm starting to see how that would be possible the more I think about it. I'm not sure if I can think of a situation where you would need to call someone to bring you a gun for immediate self-defense purposes, though. If it was immediate, you wouldn't have time to wait for a weapon to be brought to you. If you were still alive by the time it got there, it probably wasn't a dangerous enough of a situation to justify the use of a firearm in self-defense.

Usually, there's some sort of voice on these threads saying "hold on, let's wait until we have more information." Full disclosure - I was as quick as anyone else in jumping to conclusions and jumping to judgment on this one. It still very well may turn out that Miller did something wrong, or we may never know. But, I think there are possible explanations other than Miller knowingly delivering a gun to be used for murder.

It was implied in the Duke WBB Wrong Ball Controversy thread that those who asked questions and asked for more information might be racist and/or sexist. I won't make any similar insinuations here about anyone who got grabbed by the initial limited information that was reported because it sounded very bad (and again, might be as bad as it sounds).

[Southgate0809]

Has any story mentioned that the gun was in Miller's possession prior to the ask? I read the situation as Miles calling Miller and saying - "get my gun and bring it to me" rather than "I'd like to have my gun back now"

I'm not sure, but to your point, I'd probably feel differently about it if Miller didn't originally have possession of the gun before the ask. Some are saying that it was in his car or had been left there (on purpose? accidentally?)

[Southgate0809]

Seriously? Isn't the reasonable response to feeling in danger in a parking lot at 1:00 AM to be 'Get the hell out of the parking lot!'? Not 'Bring me a gun. I'll just chill 'til you get here'.

Yes, but sometimes the law allows you to do unreasonable things. I'm used to Virginia self-defense laws that requires you to retreat from danger if you can safely do so. Not all states work that way.

[AGDukesky]

Yes, but sometimes the law allows you to do unreasonable things. I'm used to Virginia self-defense laws that requires you to retreat from danger if you can safely do so. Not all states work that way.

Alabama is a stand-your-ground state

[cato]

My wife has handled several appeals in CA where the appellant was convicted of murder on a “natural and probable consequences” theory, i.e., the appellant was convicted of murder where they aided and abetted the perpetrator but there was no evidence that they took an act intending to assist the perpetrator in committing the crime. Instead, the “natural and probable consequences” of their act was the commission of the crime.

There is an extensive body of case law governing this and detailed jury instructions. It is very fact specific. Also, prosecuting significant crimes like murder using these types of theories are relatively disfavored in CA these days.

AL may have very different views on when and where to apply these types of theories, but they also have very different rules regarding carrying firearms and using them in disputes.

The police have much more information than we do. What has been reported and what was revealed in connection with charging proceedings is only part of the story.

Some people are assuming that the authorities made different charging decisions based on the relative value of Miller and Miles to the Alabama basketball program. I am skeptical that they fine-tuned their analysis so carefully. Instead, I think the most likely explanation is that they have much more compelling evidence that Miles committed a crime and not enough to charge Miller. The distinctions between the reported actions of the two players are obvious.

None of this helps explain why Oats handled this so poorly. I think the obvious explanation there is that he doesn’t (yet?) have a good enough filter and is open about how he views things like this with the media. My guess is that he will get better at toeing the line rhetorically and not change at all in how he views the world.

[Southgate0809]

My wife has handled several appeals in CA where the appellant was convicted of murder on a “natural and probable consequences” theory, i.e., the appellant was convicted of murder where they aided and abetted the perpetrator but there was no evidence that they took an act intending to assist the perpetrator in committing the crime. Instead, the “natural and probable consequences” of their act was the commission of the crime.

There is an extensive body of case law governing this and detailed jury instructions. It is very fact specific. Also, prosecuting significant crimes like murder using these types of theories are relatively disfavored in CA these days.

AL may have very different views on when and where to apply these types of theories, but they also have very different rules regarding carrying firearms and using them in disputes.

The police have much more information than we do. What has been reported and what was revealed in connection with charging proceedings is only part of the story.

Some people are assuming that the authorities made different charging decisions based on the relative value of Miller and Miles to the Alabama basketball program. I am skeptical that they fine-tuned their analysis so carefully. Instead, I think the most likely explanation is that they have much more compelling evidence that Miles committed a crime and not enough to charge Miller. The distinctions between the reported actions of the two players are obvious.

None of this helps explain why Oats handled this so poorly. I think the obvious explanation there is that he doesn’t (yet?) have a good enough filter and is open about how he views things like this with the media. My guess is that he will get better at toeing the line rhetorically and not change at all in how he views the world.

Yeah I think it's easy to cherry pick an example of a celebrity/athlete getting off easy, when the reality is probably that average Joe Schmo criminals get off on technicalities all the time or because there just wasn't enough evidence there.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah I think it's easy to cherry pick an example of a celebrity/athlete getting off easy, when the reality is probably that average Joe Schmo criminals get off on technicalities all the time or because there just wasn't enough evidence there.

I think the biggest difference is that some can retain excellent counsel, while many are appointed very dedicated and bright — but severely overstretched — public defenders.

And to be clear, the main issue is not the quality of those two groups of lawyers — it is their workload.

[Acymetric]

That doesn’t get a lot closer to aiding and abetting. It IS aiding and abetting a murder.

Agreed, bringing the gun to the shooter w the intent to aid him is aiding and abetting. So is knowingly blocking the victim’s escape. Either of them individually is aiding and abetting. Doing both? No question. And I have seen people charged, and convicted, of lesser acts that were still found to be aiding and abetting the direct perpetrator’s crime, and sent to prison for it. If these are indeed the facts, or some of the facts, it is unconscionable for the police to declare that Miller committed no chargeable crime.

He and Oats should be suspended immediately.

The claim that there is no chargeable crime here is insane and pretty clearly wasn't correct even based on the initially reported facts if you read the description of the handoff.

[DukeTrinity11]

The claim that there is no chargeable crime here is insane and pretty clearly wasn't correct even based on the initially reported facts if you read the description of the handoff.

What's the chargeable crime?

[Acymetric]

What's the chargeable crime?

For bringing a loaded gun to a confrontation and blocking the victim's exit with his car?

I think some of you are trying too hard to be open minded, or are maybe too far removed from this kind of violent interaction to understand the context of the alleged verbal conversations and text messages? This is very clearly not a case where Miller just thought Davis wanted his gun back. The word "infer" has gotten thrown around a fair bit in this thread, but when someone says "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" I'm not "inferring" the meaning.

[Southgate0809]

For bringing a loaded gun to a confrontation and blocking the victim's exit with his car?

I think some of you are trying too hard to be open minded, or are maybe too far removed from this kind of violent interaction to understand the context of the alleged verbal conversations and text messages? This is very clearly not a case where Miller just thought Davis wanted his gun back. The word "infer" has gotten thrown around a fair bit in this thread, but when someone says "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" I'm not "inferring" the meaning.

I didn't know he had blocked the car. Do you have something you're reading with more information?

[Acymetric]

I didn't know he had blocked the car. Do you have something you're reading with more information?

It is possible I got mixed up with some of the other people involved, let me confirm. The car was definitely blocked by two cars, I thought one of them was Millers.

[Southgate0809]

It is possible I got mixed up with some of the other people involved, let me confirm. The car was definitely blocked by two cars, I thought one of them was Millers.

I kept having to re-read things over and over again because Miles and Miller are so similar.

[Acymetric]

It is possible I got mixed up with some of the other people involved, let me confirm. The car was definitely blocked by two cars, I thought one of them was Millers.

Ok, you made me doubt myself but here it is from the original article linked:

Two vehicles - a Dodge Charger and a Dodge Challenger that belonged to Miles’ teammates, Miller and Bradley - were blocking the road where the Jeep was parked.

https://www.al.com/news/2023/02/dari...e-testify.html

Edit: snarkiness unnecessary, sorry

[Acymetric]

I kept having to re-read things over and over again because Miles and Miller are so similar.

The Miles/Miller thing does make it a confusing read.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I would be curious but if they left it in my car, I would return it since its their property. People carry guns with them all the time for self defense so even if Miller had asked, Miles could've said he feels like he was in a sketchy or dangerous situation and wanted it on hand for self defense.

If my friend called me at 1 am and said "bring me my gun to this public place, I am in danger" I would say "why don't you remove yourself from that situation?" Isn't that a normal response? Rather than bringing them a gun knowing that it will escalate the situation? I know that in some circles perhaps you will "lose face" by walking away, but that is not a value system that I embrace. And if I was running an NBA team, I don't think I would want someone on my team who embraced that value system either, as they are likely to run into future trouble where the nuances of the law are able to keep them out of jail.

Just curious - have you ever been in a situation where you had to defend yourself or came close to needing to defend yourself? I happened to actually be in one yesterday on an NYC subway with my kids. And I got off the train and moved to a different car (and notified the police officers who were standing on the platform). Not that I had the means to do much anyway, but rather than be a hero, that is usually the preferred option.

[Southgate0809]

I just read something too that said his car was blocking the road that the victim's car was on. I'm not exactly sure what that means. Does that means he's pulled up along side the car, so it literally couldn't pull out? Does it mean that he's illegally parked somewhere down the street? Apparently, multiple teammates were in the area. I guess it's possible he came out, gave the gun to his friend, and then went off his own way. He did, apparently, hear the owner of the gun give it to the other guy and tell him there was a round in the chamber. At worst, they were all conspiring to commit murder. At best, they are very reckless about how they just pass around guns to each other without explanation.