Alabama star Brandon Miller invovled in murder investigation

[sagegrouse]

I, too, am a bit triggered by the loss today, but was genuinely wanting to engage in a discussion on the situation with a group that has no horse in the race, so to speak.

Well, for one, Alabama rolled out Nate Oats to handle the matter with the press. He may have some good personal qualiti4es, but he is absolutely not credible, given his persona, his past statements and his self-interest in this case. I mean, a woman was killed with a gun that was in possession of Alabama basketball players, who were present near the scene of the shooting. And he blew it off.

When the LAX incident blew up at Duke (a perfect storm of black and white, town and gown, elite and poor, etc.), the Duke Board took charge and, at great cost to the University in terms of alumni relations and fund-raising, told the athletic department to "shut up," set about dismantling and rebuilding the LAX program and didn't utter a word publicly. This, in order to preserve the reputation of one of the world's great universities over the next century or so. and this was in a case where the charges were seen from the beginning as likely fabricated, although made more treacherous by rogue behavior of a DA concerned about appealing to AfAm voters to save his pension.

Anyway, just my views.

[OldPhiKap]

Alabama apparently does not require any permit to have a loaded weapon in your car. Putting aside any argument about whether this is a stupid and irresponsible law [it is], that’s apparently the law in Alabama. https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state...es-in-alabama/

There is no evidence that I am aware of that indicates Miller was aware that the gun was being requested for anything other than defensive purposes, and Miller apparently claims (whether credibly or not) that he did not see the text asking for him to being the gun. Again, this does not violate the law as far as I know.

Oats has clearly mishandled the PR side of this. But if someone has a link to what law the kid actually violated, I’d like to see it.

As far as the argument that the kid got special treatment because he was a star, probably so. This is not unique to Alabama. Paolo was charged with aiding and abetting a DWI, but Duke presumably did an internal investigation and determined that he should not even miss the next start. And, IIRC, the charges were ultimately dropped because (like Miller) Paolo showed poor judgment but did not undertake an action deemed sufficient for prosecution.

And yes, I understand that DWI is dissimilar to murder in that DWI only has the potential to kill, but DWI is a daily instrument of death (30 people per day in the US according to the NHTSA: https://www.thezebra.com/resources/r...ng-statistics/ ). I personally reject the argument that DWI is no big thing, but I recognize that’s a disputed point and don’t really want to sidetrack the argument. Suffice to say, both are violations of law with serious consequences.

To be clear, I think Oats should have suspended Miller for poor judgment for a number of games (and I think Paolo should have at least lost a single start). But I see no evidence supporting the proposition that Miller should have been thrown off the team.

[Acymetric]

To be clear, I think Oats should have suspended Miller for poor judgment for a number of games (and I think Paolo should have at least lost a single start). But I see no evidence supporting the proposition that Miller should have been thrown off the team.

I'm pretty sure this is what people are criticizing Oates and Alabama for, I don't think any of us are confused enough to think the University is responsible for the laws and prosecutorial decisions of the state of Alabama. I also think the Paolo comparison is not very apt...kind of apples and oranges. The fact that people are using the same "kids being kids" and "wrong place wrong time" excuses* for both situations is honestly probably why I have such a huge problem with all of it. Even accepting the story from Miller at face value (I absolutely don't), you just don't wind up accidentally delivering a murder weapon to a murder scene moments before the murder without making a lot of flat out wrong decisions along the way.

*Not attributing those to you, just referencing them.

Edit: For anyone confused, I edited this post to add a sentence but saved it after OPK had already quoted it

[OldPhiKap]

I'm pretty sure this is what people are criticizing Oates and Alabama for, I don't think any of us are confused enough to think the University is responsible for the laws and prosecutorial decisions of the state of Alabama. I also think the Paolo comparison is not very apt...kind of apples and oranges. The fact that people are using the same "kids being kids" and "wrong place wrong time" excuses* for both situations is honestly probably why I have such a huge problem with all of it.

*Not attributing those to you, just referencing them.

Understood and respected.

(I’ve decided to post all of my unpopular arguments on my social medias before taking off the summer!)

[mapei]

I guess I think being able to participate in sports and other extracurricular activities that represent to the public what a university is all about is a privilege. And I want my university to have higher standards for allowing that privilege than the letter of the law. I think this case - at a minimum, driving around with a loaded gun in your car, teammates present at a fatal shooting, a request for a gun to be brought to a player, and ultimately the death of a young woman who may herself have done nothing wrong - says very troubling things about the culture of the Alabama basketball program. (That it is being shrugged off by many suggests, in my own opinion, troubling things about America as well.)

The university handled this very poorly, delegating everything to the coach, and the coach is apparently untroubled by these facts as they apply to Miller. He should at least have been reprimanded and suspended for a number of games. If the player is telling the truth as he believes it, he was certainly not paying attention to some dangerous circumstances. And someone in a position of authority at the University of Alabama should be showing concern over the culture of the university's basketball program.

As I side point, I will never, ever root for Maryland.

[Norman Pfyster]

The university handled this very poorly, delegating everything to the coach, and the coach is apparently untroubled by these facts as they apply to Miller. He should at least have been reprimanded and suspended for a number of games. If the player is telling the truth as he believes it, he was certainly not paying attention to some dangerous circumstances. And someone in a position of authority at the University of Alabama should be showing concern over the culture of the university's basketball program.

The decision not to suspend Miller when additional information about his involvement became known was made at a meeting of Nate Oats, the AD, the university president and the university general counsel. I assume the university president had the ultimate say, although it is likely all four concurred on the action taken.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Alabama should have taken a page from the UNC handbook. Let the team vote on whether Miller can play.

/Eyeroll

[CameronBornAndBred]

Alabama should have taken a page from the UNC handbook. Let the team vote on whether Miller can play.

/Eyeroll

"He can play, but I'm not passing him the ball."

[Phredd3]

To be clear, I think Oats should have suspended Miller for poor judgment for a number of games (and I think Paolo should have at least lost a single start).

I agree with this (including the part about Paolo), but I'll extend it further to the conclusion that therefore, as a fan, I will root against Alabama's men's team in the NCAA tournament. But Rolldevils' post went a bit farther than that:

I keep seeing so many people rooting against Bama. Is it because you don't like Coach Oats, which is a position you are certainly entitled to, or because you have some opinion on Miller that goes against what the legal system and facts of the events have said?

My opinion does not "go against what the legal system and facts of the events have said." It reflects my belief that the law is a minimum standard of conduct, not a maximum, and that I prefer college sports to reflect a somewhat higher standard. I also find the legal minimums in Alabama to be unacceptably low, but that's PPB. It is, nevertheless, a position I'm entitled to hold, whether or not RollDevils happens to agree with it, but his/her post strongly suggests the opposite.

A post which in effect declares a particular opinion illegitimate at the outset doesn't really encourage the reasoned and disinterested debate RollDevils claims to crave. I would suggest that being open to alternative views is required for reasoned debate.

[75Crazie]

The decision not to suspend Miller when additional information about his involvement became known was made at a meeting of Nate Oats, the AD, the university president and the university general counsel. I assume the university president had the ultimate say, although it is likely all four concurred on the action taken.

I would not necessarily assume that.

[sagegrouse]

The decision not to suspend Miller when additional information about his involvement became known was made at a meeting of Nate Oats, the AD, the university president and the university general counsel. I assume the university president had the ultimate say, although it is likely all four concurred on the action taken.

Long after and far too late. Sometimes, you have to do the right thing immediately. Where were the alarm bells when several players are at the scene of a murder? This isn't an allegation or a "story" -- the young woman, an acquaintance of one of the players is dead. The University president and counsel were hiding under their beds with their ears plugged, waiting for the episode to be over.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My opinion does not "go against what the legal system and facts of the events have said." It reflects my belief that the law is a minimum standard of conduct, not a maximum, and that I prefer college sports to reflect a somewhat higher standard.

Exactly this. People get fired every day from jobs for conduct that doesn't break the law. Any personal individual can make their own judgment on someone's character even if they aren't convicted of a crime.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is the burden for our legal system, and I'm thankful for it. But college kids don't have to be convicted of a felony to be excused from campus/practice/school.

[cato]

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall “Pat Down Miller” expressing any sentiment at all for Jamea Jonae Harris or her young son, who will grow up without his mother.

I have no issue with the prosecutor declining to charge Alabama’s star player for reasons outlined in detail above, but I have zero respect for him, his coach or his defenders.

The Alabama fan coming round here to prove some point or another should spend more time thinking about the tragic murder of a young mother and the life long (potentially multigenerational) devastation it will leave in its wake than defending a callous and callow but supremely talented soon-to-be multimillionaire.

I won’t wait with bated breath for this to happen. I will, however, say a prayer for Ms. Harris, her mother and her son every time I hear about that player.

[Norman Pfyster]

Long after and far too late. Sometimes, you have to do the right thing immediately. Where were the alarm bells when several players are at the scene of a murder? This isn't an allegation or a "story" -- the young woman, an acquaintance of one of the players is dead. The University president and counsel were hiding under their beds with their ears plugged, waiting for the episode to be over.

In the immediate aftermath, the university had been told by police that one student-athlete (Miles) was charged with a capital crime and two others were being questioned as witnesses and not as suspects. The one charged was immediately dismissed. Why on god's green earth would you suspend or dismiss the other two if you have been told they are nothing other than witnesses to a crime? As dumb as it was for Oates to speak out, I'm sure he believed the "wrong place, wrong time" line he gave before he learned about the gun in Miller's car. When the additional information came out about Miller a month later, the president, AD and GC met that night to make a decision on Miller's status. You can disagree with their judgment, but still accept that they acted in good faith.

[cruxer]

I've mostly disengaged from this thread since everyone is pretty sure they know what happened, but some folks have actually done some reporting on this situation: https://twitter.com/GottliebShow/sta...886266880?s=20

TL;DR (It's a long article but I think I get most of this right, no guarantees though):

• That night, there was a verbal altercation between Cedric Johnson (Jamea Harris' boyfriend) and Michael Davis (Miles' friend and the shooter). Miles helped de-escalate the situation and later told police he saw a gun being given to Johnson during the argument.

• After the argument, Miles and Davis go their own way. This is when Miles sends the "joint" text to Miller. Miles also has to break up a fight his girlfriend is in.

• Meanwhile, according to the reporter, video appears to show the Jeep that Harris and her cousin were in, driven by Johnson, stalking Miles and Michael Davis. At one point the Jeep's headlights are turned off when it gets close to Davis.

• Johnson told police, but did not testify, that Davis threatened him during the verbal altercation. Asia Humphreys, Harris' cousin, was also in the car and witnessed the verbal altercation. Humphreys testified and did not corroborate any threats. Johnson was the only person who told police about a threat.

• There was ample time between the verbal altercation and the shooting for everyone to go their separate ways. It seemed that the bama players were still there only because Miles wanted to walk his girlfriend to her car.

• Miller was parked and Johnson pulled up behind him. That's when Davis ran up to the car and the shooting began.

• It appeared to the reporter that the first shot came from the car Harris and Johnson were in.

This post is not to argue this is what happened. More, my point is we don't know what happened. Certainly Miles and Davis face legal jeopardy, but the case against them might not be that strong. Miller faces no legal jeopardy but has surely told Alabama his view on the situation and what he knows. They know more than we do. Apparently some of the evidence comes from a dashcam I would have to assume is in his car. He has apparently shared that evidence with police. Maybe he shared that footage with Alabama too. He (and Alabama) are smart not to talk about this publicly. Alec Baldwin likely talked himself into a serious charge by talking publicly about what was clearly a tragic accident on a movie set.

Is it possible that Miller knowingly delivered a gun into a volatile situation and is an accessory? Sure. However, it's a stretch to think that the DA thinks they can prove this but won't because he's good at basketball. It's also possible that Miller didn't see or understand the text and he was just doing his job as DD. It's even possible that Miles and Davis truly felt threatened when they thought they saw a gun earlier and were trying to get out of there. They wanted the gun just in case but were ready to head home. Then they see the Jeep again and a confrontation ensues, this time with guns on both sides. All of us passing judgment with no idea what really happened just need to take a step back.

[moonpie23]

uhhh...hang on....did you just reference Doug Gottlieb as a "reporter"...like, a "journalist" reporter? I didn't even know he had graduated from hack-school-credit-card-thief" yet...


man, time flies....

[RollDevils]

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall “Pat Down Miller” expressing any sentiment at all for Jamea Jonae Harris or her young son, who will grow up without his mother.

I have no issue with the prosecutor declining to charge Alabama’s star player for reasons outlined in detail above, but I have zero respect for him, his coach or his defenders.

The Alabama fan coming round here to prove some point or another should spend more time thinking about the tragic murder of a young mother and the life long (potentially multigenerational) devastation it will leave in its wake than defending a callous and callow but supremely talented soon-to-be multimillionaire.

I won’t wait with bated breath for this to happen. I will, however, say a prayer for Ms. Harris, her mother and her son every time I hear about that player.

I am glad that the two young men who are directly responsible for the death of this young woman are behind bars and will be prosecuted in accordance with the law.

I dont believe that Miller owes you or anyone else another pound of flesh because he was driving a friend and teammate to and from a club that night.

These two can be separate discussions.

[RollDevils]

I agree with this (including the part about Paolo), but I'll extend it further to the conclusion that therefore, as a fan, I will root against Alabama's men's team in the NCAA tournament. But Rolldevils' post went a bit farther than that:



My opinion does not "go against what the legal system and facts of the events have said." It reflects my belief that the law is a minimum standard of conduct, not a maximum, and that I prefer college sports to reflect a somewhat higher standard. I also find the legal minimums in Alabama to be unacceptably low, but that's PPB. It is, nevertheless, a position I'm entitled to hold, whether or not RollDevils happens to agree with it, but his/her post strongly suggests the opposite.

A post which in effect declares a particular opinion illegitimate at the outset doesn't really encourage the reasoned and disinterested debate RollDevils claims to crave. I would suggest that being open to alternative views is required for reasoned debate.

That is a lot of words to say that you believe some form of punishment should have been levied against Miller without providing any tangible evidence of why, other than it would make you feel better.

My point is that the legal system and the facts of the events that have been made public do not indicate Miller had any culpability other than agreeing to be the driver and being out too late in a high risk (for a student athlete) environment. So, why, in your opinion does he deserve punishment and why do he and the team deserve your ire? Again, I understand Oats, but my question is specifically with respect to Miller.

[rsvman]

That is a lot of words to say that you believe some form of punishment should have been levied against Miller without providing any tangible evidence of why, other than it would make you feel better.

My point is that the legal system and the facts of the events that have been made public do not indicate Miller had any culpability other than agreeing to be the driver and being out too late in a high risk (for a student athlete) environment. So, why, in your opinion does he deserve punishment and why do he and the team deserve your ire? Again, I understand Oats, but my question is specifically with respect to Miller.

Nobody expects a kid to be his own disciplinarian. So the whole discussion is revolving around Oats and the other leaders at the school, not around Miller himself.

In a world where players get suspended a game because they broke curfew or because they tripped somebody during the course of a basketball game, you don't think it would have been reasonable for the player to have mussed a game or two, regardless of legal culpability?

If that is your opinion, we will have to agree to disagree.

[cato]

I am glad that the two young men who are directly responsible for the death of this young woman are behind bars and will be prosecuted in accordance with the law.

I dont believe that Miller owes you or anyone else another pound of flesh because he was driving a friend and teammate to and from a club that night.

These two can be separate discussions.

Just like I expected, more deflecting and compartmentalization. It would be so easy to recognize the tragedy. The failure of the Alabama player to do so speaks volumes.

I am not asking for a pound of flesh. He will earn whatever he earns, and it won’t be my respect. I suspect he doesn’t care. Not sure why you do.