AP Courses

[Bostondevil]

My school did not offer many AP classes back when I was there - but thankfully you could take tests without taking the class so I was able to knock out more APs than my school offered. Helped me finish undergrad a yr early, but I am not sure I feel about giving college credit to kids who show up and pass a test cold - do they still allow that?

No. Most schools will let you place out of introductory classes, but they limit the number of AP credits that count towards graduation - usually the equivalent of 2 courses.

Not sure if this true for everybody, but neither UVM nor William & Mary allowed AP credits to count towards graduation for my sons when they transferred to those schools.

[Tooold]

Yes, but rigorous and AP are not synonymous. AP classes teach to a test and are therefore somewhat limited in scope. Teachers don't get questions ahead of time but they are advised on general areas that should be covered each year - so - that's what gets covered. I would argue that a student who foregoes the multitude of AP classes in favor of digging deeper into one or two areas of interest has a much more academically rigorous schedule than one who takes every AP class on offer. You only major in one or maybe two subjects in college. I'd prefer to see students who go beyond the expected. The expected is taking a bunch of APs.

Today's college admissions process favors extroverts over introverts, generalists over specialists, athletes over scholars (not saying athletes can't be good students, but unless an athletes' primary interest is their sport, they aren't going to be playing a D1 sport in college). The only reason a student is taking 17 AP classes is because it will "look good on their college application" - they may be very smart and able to handle such a schedule, but what is interesting about that student, really? What makes that student more worthy? Why should Duke favor that student when the competition for each slot is so high? College admissions are zero sum game. For every kid that is accepted, that means another one is not. I don't see the reasons why 17 AP classes is more impressive than someone who only took the AP classes in their favorite fields so that they would have more time in their schedule to pursue that field.

The AP tests used to be a way for kids to get through college in 3 years so that they could save money. Colleges got wise to that and stopped giving college credit for more than 2 courses - they want the 4 years of tuition money in exchange for their name on your degree, thank you very much. So really - what is the point of them now? More well off towns will offer more AP classes in the first place and students with the resources to pay for the exams are more likely to take those classes. They have morphed from a way to help students save some money into yet another expensive pre-req for entrance into the upper middle class. I, for one, would like to see AP classes de-emphasized although I suspect for very different reasons than what is going on in Florida.

I don’t disagree with you at all…I was only saying that, whether it is right or wrong, colleges like Duke have decided it means something if students take a large percentage of the AP classes available to them. (Theoretically, they don’t penalize students whose schools don’t offer many APs…they will compare the number taken to the number available.). I bet schools like Duke also know that there are some AP classes they should discount. Frankly, there are not a lot of really objective measures with which to compare applicants. With a 6.3% acceptance rate, it is really hard to differentiate candidates. Almost every student I have interviewed was qualified and impressive….but only a few have been accepted.

For the record, the student I interviewed who had taken 17 APs is also a fabulous young man, IMO. I hope he gets accepted. He has a LOT of other interests, but clearly has pursed in depth his favorite fields. Taking 17 AP classes did not make this young man a good candidate in my eyes…it was everything else he has done, and the way he was able to talk about his interests.

Also, to tag on to what Crazy said earlier about interviewing….Duke does not provide GPAs, test scores, resumes, etc., for the applicants we interview, and there is a reason for that. It is not up to us to decide how qualified they are academically. I try to get to know my applicants, find out what their interests are, and what they have done to develop those interests. And I have a sweet spot for applicants who have had to work menial jobs, either in the summer or on weekends during the school year….maybe because I did, and I insisted that my kids work as well.

[Bostondevil]

I don’t disagree with you at all…I was only saying that, whether it is right or wrong, colleges like Duke have decided it means something if students take a large percentage of the AP classes available to them. (Theoretically, they don’t penalize students whose schools don’t offer many APs…they will compare the number taken to the number available.). I bet schools like Duke also know that there are some AP classes they should discount. Frankly, there are not a lot of really objective measures with which to compare applicants. With a 6.3% acceptance rate, it is really hard to differentiate candidates. Almost every student I have interviewed was qualified and impressive….but only a few have been accepted.

For the record, the student I interviewed who had taken 17 APs is also a fabulous young man, IMO. I hope he gets accepted. He has a LOT of other interests, but clearly has pursed in depth his favorite fields. Taking 17 AP classes did not make this young man a good candidate in my eyes…it was everything else he has done, and the way he was able to talk about his interests.

Also, to tag on to what Crazy said earlier about interviewing….Duke does not provide GPAs, test scores, resumes, etc., for the applicants we interview, and there is a reason for that. It is not up to us to decide how qualified they are academically. I try to get to know my applicants, find out what their interests are, and what they have done to develop those interests. And I have a sweet spot for applicants who have had to work menial jobs, either in the summer or on weekends during the school year….maybe because I did, and I insisted that my kids work as well.

I agree with you. But, IMHO, it's wrong. I would also argue that the are no objective measures available to compare applicants, not truly. The SAT has been shown to be biased in all sorts of ways and, at the end of the day, the only the SAT reliable predicts is how well a student does on the SAT. AP classes favor the upper middle class. Grade inflation exists at the high school level now and grades from private high schools are higher than grades from public high schools. Parents don't pay high tuition rates for their kids to get Cs and it shows in the GPA. Private high schools also offer tutoring for standardized tests and will recommend SAT or ACT based on a student's test taking skills, so, comparing SAT scores from public to private is no longer objective.

[Tooold]

I agree with you. But, IMHO, it's wrong. I would also argue that the are no objective measures available to compare applicants, not truly. The SAT has been shown to be biased in all sorts of ways and, at the end of the day, the only the SAT reliable predicts is how well a student does on the SAT. AP classes favor the upper middle class. Grade inflation exists at the high school level now and grades from private high schools are higher than grades from public high schools. Parents don't pay high tuition rates for their kids to get Cs and it shows in the GPA. Private high schools also offer tutoring for standardized tests and will recommend SAT or ACT based on a student's test taking skills, so, comparing SAT scores from public to private is no longer objective.

Yes. I especially agree that there are no true objective measures, but I don’t know that there is a good answer. And with the common app, students can easily apply to many more schools, which only makes the admissions job harder (last year Duke had over 50,000 applicants for 1700 spots+/-). I also recognize that private school students (and upper middle class students) have an advantage in that they are helped in many ways…test tutoring, interview coaching, padded resumes (does a small private high school really need to give awards for the top performer and the runner-up in every subject for every grade?) Having served as Chair of the Board of Ed of a public school system for several years, and being a product of the public schools myself, I will usually value the public high school student over an apparently equally qualified private school applicant, just because I think the public school student probably had less hand-holding.

I believe that the Duke Admissions Dept. knows the average GPA for the different high schools, and evaluates students in that context. They also know what the curriculum opportunities are at different schools. I believe they are sensitive to the fact that certain students have a head start, and I believe I have seen that sensitivity reflected in some of the admission decisions for the students I have interviewed.

The SAT question is complicated…Duke instituted an SAT optional process during Covid, and it remains to be seen long that will continue. But in the absence of a better objective (or quantitative) measurement, I don’t see it going away.

[Bluedog]

The SAT question is complicated…Duke instituted an SAT optional process during Covid, and it remains to be seen long that will continue. But in the absence of a better objective (or quantitative) measurement, I don’t see it going away.

Test optional is here to stay, particularly with the supreme court ruling on the horizon this summer. There will be a large move to ensure diversity and being test optional helps in that regard. There has already been a movement against standardized testing as being inequitable to begin with.

Colleges also don't want to require something that others don't, less their application numbers dwindle. I remember when I was applying in the early 2000s, UChicago had something like a 50% acceptance rate because it was very self selecting as the essays they required where unique to the school and you couldn't reuse. So, you didn't apply unless you really wanted to go there because of the effort involved in the application process. UChicago has changed course since then dramatically and it has improved their selectivity/standing which all schools care about...

As far as AP courses, I think the fact that there is some national norm in the curriculum/testing and typically the best students of a typical high school take it, there is some level of rigor but it's not always "the most rigorous." I've heard the IB curriculum is more rigorous. At many high schools, there is also a large incentive to have as many students take AP courses/tests as possible because national ranking sites utilize "% of students that take AP" as an important metric (regardless of score).

There is also a big movement in some circles to remove tracking so as to reduce barriers for those coming from more disadvantaged backgrounds. My local high school has freshman "English honors" for EVERYONE. Of course, one could then suggest it's not really "honors" if everyone is in it but the district is attempting to not base things on test scores and give everyone an "equal footing/opportunity" to start as an attempt at equity. The middle schools have also eliminated advanced/accelerated math. My district is usually on the lead of these sorts of movements. Does this mean AP is next on the chopping block? Could be but I think schools hang their hat on it because of national recognition so it probably has more "stickiness" than it would otherwise. In my experience, AP was good in that it emulated college courses more where there is a final exam where you have to take everything you learned that year into one test. Of course, my local high school has also eliminated final exams as they deemed it too stressful and inequitable, but they still offer AP courses where you can take the test. Oh, and homework has been eliminated in junior high too, and instead class time is used to complete "home work" because again it's inequitable to require home work. In my opinion, all these measures are preparing student less for college/the real world, so I personally think AP is quite powerful in having some level of rigor at least that requires students to study on their own time so as to prepare them for college/careers. So, I'm in favor of the AP program as it at least gives SOME standard of rigor and emulates later schooling/work.

[Kdogg]

I remember when I was applying in the early 2000s, UChicago had something like a 50% acceptance rate because it was very self selecting as the essays they required where unique to the school and you couldn't reuse. So, you didn't apply unless you really wanted to go there because of the effort involved in the application process. UChicago has changed course since then dramatically and it has improved their selectivity/standing which all schools care about...

I think most of us are from a time where this was the norm. Every school application I filled out had different essays. I don't think I could have reused any of them. The Common Application didn't have much traction before Y2K. Many students thought using it would reflect negatively on their application. The thinking was it showed commitment to use the schools application.

[Bluedog]

I think most of us are from a time where this was the norm. Every school application I filled out had different essays. I don't think I could have reused any of them. The Common Application didn't have much traction before Y2K. Many students thought using it would reflect negatively on their application. The thinking was it showed commitment to use the schools application.

Duke at the time I applied had its own questions but you could also use the common app question for the main essay. However, they did have "Why Duke?" as a shorter one. Does that still exist?

Most the essays in the early naughts for me weren't necessarily identical but had similar themes. UChicago has a question like "famous ancient person could draw a perfect circle freehand. What similar skill do you have?" So they were more off the wall.


I recall Columbia having a bunch of short response questions like "what newspapers do you read?"

I see positives and negatives to making the application process more generic and not requiring students to write unique essays for every school.

[cato]

The middle schools have also eliminated advanced/accelerated math.

If there is one thing I know about middle school it is that everyone in middle school should be taking the same level math as their peers.

[Bostondevil]

Yes. I especially agree that there are no true objective measures, but I don’t know that there is a good answer. And with the common app, students can easily apply to many more schools, which only makes the admissions job harder (last year Duke had over 50,000 applicants for 1700 spots+/-). I also recognize that private school students (and upper middle class students) have an advantage in that they are helped in many ways…test tutoring, interview coaching, padded resumes (does a small private high school really need to give awards for the top performer and the runner-up in every subject for every grade?) Having served as Chair of the Board of Ed of a public school system for several years, and being a product of the public schools myself, I will usually value the public high school student over an apparently equally qualified private school applicant, just because I think the public school student probably had less hand-holding.

I believe that the Duke Admissions Dept. knows the average GPA for the different high schools, and evaluates students in that context. They also know what the curriculum opportunities are at different schools. I believe they are sensitive to the fact that certain students have a head start, and I believe I have seen that sensitivity reflected in some of the admission decisions for the students I have interviewed.

The SAT question is complicated…Duke instituted an SAT optional process during Covid, and it remains to be seen long that will continue. But in the absence of a better objective (or quantitative) measurement, I don’t see it going away.

I don't. About 9% of America's K-12 students go to private schools. Just under a quarter of the students admitted to Duke come from private high schools.

[Bluedog]

If there is one thing I know about middle school it is that everyone in middle school should be taking the same level math as their peers.

That is certainly a valid viewpoint and many share that view for legitimate reasons. Many studies have backed that up. I think it gets tricky when there is a huge deviation in math abilities in a given class -- how do you help support those in the 10th percentile nationally and bring them up, while also allowing those in the 90th percentile to grow/not get bored? Really good teachers can do this in class differentiation but it's not easy. I think it's easier in certain districts than others -- depends on the student cohort. So, most districts probably don't have both ends of the extremes as schools tend to be fairly homogeneous on average. With everyone in the same math class, the top students also confer an advantage by "teaching others" while those behind aren't unfairly labeled as being "bad at math" from an early age which is extremely predictive for the future.

I recall in 4th grade I was given a math book to work on my own and the teacher would grade my work afterwards. I did the work in the same class as everyone else though, but was given a different lesson plan which I appreciated. Then, we did have different classrooms for advanced math starting in 5th grade as I recall. I appreciated it at the time because I loved math and was bored if not pushed more. Pros and cons to everything.

You can apply the same principles to youth sports leagues. There are often competitive travel leagues at a fairly young age, and if you're not in it to begin with, it's hard to catch up. H/t Malcolm Gladwell and his Canadian hockey example.

[Bostondevil]

If there is one thing I know about middle school it is that everyone in middle school should be taking the same level math as their peers.

I agree. I don't think gifted and talented programs should exist. No 10 year old anywhere should be told they are "smarter" than their peers.

I also don't think there should be tryouts for school sports teams. If 90 kids want to play basketball, you make 5-6 teams. Even at the high school level.

There is way too much competition in American life. We need to look for ways to lessen the emphasis on objective or quantitative measures when we are talking about human beings. Everyone has a talent for something. Nobody is good at everything. We way overvalue some talents and way undervalue others - it's a shame. I would love to see Duke quit trying to be another Harvard and be in the vanguard of valuing actual diversity instead of the cookie cutter approach to what makes an "elite" student in today's world. They miss out on a lot of kids with huge talent in undervalued areas. Also - Duke should flat out accept more students. Get donations, build 3 more dorms, and accept another 1000 kids every year.

[Kdogg]

I agree. I don't think gifted and talented programs should exist. No 10 year old anywhere should be told they are "smarter" than their peers.

I also don't think there should be tryouts for school sports teams. If 90 kids want to play basketball, you make 5-6 teams. Even at the high school level.

There is way too much competition in American life. We need to look for ways to lessen the emphasis on objective or quantitative measures when we are talking about human beings. Everyone has a talent for something. Nobody is good at everything. We way overvalue some talents and way undervalue others - it's a shame. I would love to see Duke quit trying to be another Harvard and be in the vanguard of valuing actual diversity instead of the cookie cutter approach to what makes an "elite" student in today's world. They miss out on a lot of kids with huge talent in undervalued areas. Also - Duke should flat out accept more students. Get donations, build 3 more dorms, and accept another 1000 kids every year.

I agree with your sentiment but you know it’s not that easy to expand. In short time that would be an extra 4000 students on campus. The logistics would be a nightmare. They would need more teachers, more classrooms, more parking, etc… The bigger size would change what makes Duke Duke. It could be for the better or worse. For example, I was part of the first freshmen only East and loved it. I’m not sure it would work with twice as many kids.

[BLPOG]

I don't. About 9% of America's K-12 students go to private schools. Just under a quarter of the students admitted to Duke come from private high schools.

They don't know it for all schools. But they have a good idea, especially for schools that send a lot of qualified applicants, and have for a long time.

I went to a public high school and - for reasons too tangential to explain here - had some knowledge both when I was a high school student, Duke student, and graduate, on this particular point, from discussions with separate (and different) parties in the admissions process, and I'm confident it is the case. It was something I was concerned about as an applicant. Moreover, I saw related evidence firsthand re: admissions numbers from my high school and in relation to other students admitted in the same general timeframe.

On a separate point mentioned a little earlier - the idea that SATs do not predict college outcomes is absolutely not the case. They are a very good predictor, maybe the best (I haven't reviewed the literature in a while, so I'm not quite willing to make that claim). Does that make them perfect? Of course not. But they are good. A while back people tried to make the claim they were deficient using research that did not stratify by relevant categories like major. When taking those into account you get a very good correlation.

[Bostondevil]

I agree with your sentiment but you know it’s not that easy to expand. In short time that would be an extra 4000 students on campus. The logistics would be a nightmare. They would need more teachers, more classrooms, more parking, etc… The bigger size would change what makes Duke Duke. It could be for the better or worse. For example, I was part of the first freshmen only East and loved it. I’m not sure it would work with twice as many kids.

Since I was a Duke student, the student body size has increased by, I believe, about 10%. In that same time frame, the number of faculty has increased by about 150%. So no, the logistics would not be a nightmare. Duke offers majors in 53 subjects. Granted, they are not evenly dispersed, but if they were, we're talking ~30 students per year per major. If you think Duke should grow more slowly than merely admitting 1000 more students next year, fine, but that should be the goal (not all will matriculate, of course). As for parking, Gen Z is not getting driver's licenses at anywhere near the same rate as previous generations. They Uber everywhere. Uber traffic might be a problem, parking won't be.

As for keeping Duke the way it was when we were there - that ship has already sailed. Most of us would not be admitted again. So, if you agree with the notion that keeping Duke Duke is more important than admitting students similar to us old alumni that went there back in the day, then OK. I don't agree with that notion. I think Duke has lost something important and the institution won't get it back by continuing down the same path. Duke isn't alone.

I learned as much if not more from my fellow Duke students as I did from my classes at Duke but that kind of diversity at Duke is disappearing. There is a sameness to the students of today that didn't used to be there. I suspect the Common Ap actually did contribute to what is going on. The proliferation of AP classes also contributed. And SAT prep classes. And admissions consultants. The successful application to Duke looks much like the successful application to any of the Ivies and Stanford. There is a template today's high school students have to follow and it leads to a lack of diversity of thought, a lack of diversity of background, and a lack of diversity of post graduation pursuits. When you look at what graduates from our elite universities do, for the last decade or so, the largest groups (and it might even be a majority), go to work in the financial services and tech industries. There is nothing wrong with going to work in those industries but they are not scholarly pursuits. I am by no means arguing that all Duke students should engage in scholarly pursuits as careers, but more of them should. I view it as a real problem that more graduates of our elite academic institutions go into financial services than go to medical school. We have a doctor shortage after all. I suspect many posters don't feel the same way so I will pre-emptively state that I will agree to disagree.

[JNort]

How many people here took AP courses in high school? Did you find them worthwhile? I took at least 4 and it enabled me to graduate a semester early from Duke and save a bunch of money. I imagine it helped my admissions application as well.

Unfortunately, it appears they are going to be cancelled here in the state of Florida.

That’s really unfortunate. I didn’t take AP in high school but I am taking AP college courses. That’s a whole new stress level I’ve never experienced.

[kmspeaks]

I agree. I don't think gifted and talented programs should exist. No 10 year old anywhere should be told they are "smarter" than their peers.

I think it depends on what the purpose of the gifted program is. When it's a status symbol for middle class parents who push for their child's enrollment regardless of actual ability, and/or used to track students into advanced classes in the future, then sure. When done correctly though, gifted programs can benefit all students as well as teachers. In K-5 I only had one teacher who was able to provide academic challenges (not just pile on extra work) in a way that didn't single me out from my peers. The gifted program was heaven for a little kid who felt she was always being punished for being different.

As a teacher now, it is way easier for me to differentiate for and support struggling students than those that excel. The existence of the gifted program means I can outsource that to those teachers, have ready made resources to implement in my room when appropriate, and focus my time and attention on what I do best knowing those students are getting what they need from people who are much better at providing what they need.

[Phredd3]

I learned as much if not more from my fellow Duke students as I did from my classes at Duke but that kind of diversity at Duke is disappearing.

As a non-Duke-graduate who has a couple of children who are/will be graduating from Duke, I'm curious why you say this. I don't know what Duke looked like when you graduated, but I can tell you that the Duke of today looks more diverse than the University of Washington of my era, and you can learn a hell of lot more walking around and chatting with present-day Duke faculty and students than you could at the UDub back in the day.

So that just makes me curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion.

[Tooold]

I don't. About 9% of America's K-12 students go to private schools. Just under a quarter of the students admitted to Duke come from private high schools.

I am not sure that this comment relates to the sentence in my post that you bolded (that Duke knows the average GPA at different schools and evaluates students in that context). The fact that the Duke student body seems to be more weighted toward private schools than the general population does not mean that they were fooled by grade inflation at the private schools (my inference about what your comment means). Maybe Duke is accepting the best from each group (private and public schools). From what I have seen, that is the case. Also, there are many reasons why an accepted student might not matriculate, not the least of which might be the cost of the education (in spite of Duke’s progress in meeting every student’s financial needs) and that could also skew the percentages.

[Bostondevil]

I think it depends on what the purpose of the gifted program is. When it's a status symbol for middle class parents who push for their child's enrollment regardless of actual ability, and/or used to track students into advanced classes in the future, then sure. When done correctly though, gifted programs can benefit all students as well as teachers. In K-5 I only had one teacher who was able to provide academic challenges (not just pile on extra work) in a way that didn't single me out from my peers. The gifted program was heaven for a little kid who felt she was always being punished for being different.

As a teacher now, it is way easier for me to differentiate for and support struggling students than those that excel. The existence of the gifted program means I can outsource that to those teachers, have ready made resources to implement in my room when appropriate, and focus my time and attention on what I do best knowing those students are getting what they need from people who are much better at providing what they need.

I get that students develop at different rates and some students are ready for higher level work well ahead of their peers, so, I am in favor of the kinds of academic support you describe. I am not in favor of calling them gifted programs and I am not in favor of putting all the students who are ready for higher level work in the same classroom and calling them the gifted kids in elementary school.

[Bostondevil]

I am not sure that this comment relates to the sentence in my post that you bolded (that Duke knows the average GPA at different schools and evaluates students in that context). The fact that the Duke student body seems to be more weighted toward private schools than the general population does not mean that they were fooled by grade inflation at the private schools (my inference about what your comment means). Maybe Duke is accepting the best from each group (private and public schools). From what I have seen, that is the case. Also, there are many reasons why an accepted student might not matriculate, not the least of which might be the cost of the education (in spite of Duke’s progress in meeting every student’s financial needs) and that could also skew the percentages.

One of my arguments is that attending a private school is a significant thumb placed on the scale in the game that is college admissions. Private school students have advantages that public school students do not. If everyone was on equal footing and attendance at private school was not an advantage, then the expected percent of private school students at Duke would be 9%. The fact that there are 2 1/2 times as many private school students at Duke as would be expected proves my point, statistically.

Another one of my arguments is that there are no truly objective measures that we can use to compare one applicant to another therefore, I do not believe in the concept of best. But even if there were such a measure and Duke was tasked with only accepting the best from each group, then the expected percentage of private school students would still be about 9%. If you want to argue that a higher percentage of private school students applies to Duke in the first place, then OK, perhaps the expected value of 9% is low, but it's not as high as 24%.

If more of the best public school students do go to Duke because of financial need, then Duke needs to fix that problem if they want to think of themselves as an elite academic institution.