AP Courses

[BigWayne]

Math 32

Physics used 51/52 for the first year classes.

[Tooold]

Back in the day, even the best high schools only offered a few AP courses. I took what was available, but didn’t take many AP tests—my thinking was “why would I ever want to skip one year of college?” As an engineer, you could only place out of the Freshman writing course with a score >700 on the English Achievement test (which later became the SAT II), which I did. English AP would have gotten me nothing. Many other APs were not and still are not even recognized in the engineering school (physics, stats).

And even though Duke will award a maximum of 2 credits for APs, Duke and other elite schools still like to see students take as many AP courses as possible. They know how many APs are offered at different high schools, and they like to see students take advantage of those available to them. Students who don’t take many APs will have a tougher climb to get accepted. I could argue both sides of this. I agree that we put way too much pressure on kids in HS, but I will also say that the applicants I have interviewed (and the students I have met in my involvement with Pratt) are all so exceptional that I understand why those who have taken the most rigorous courseload seem to rise to the top of the pool. And, at least at Pratt, the curriculum is so challenging that those who have succeeded in a rigorous HS curriculum seem more likely to be successful at Pratt.

I recently interviewed a student for Duke who had taken 17 APs! (One was call “AP Seminar”)

[75Crazie]

Back in the day, even the best high schools only offered a few AP courses.

My high school (small Shenandoah Valley town) did not offer any. Its idea of a high placement Math class was Senior Trig, and that was only for the top Math students. Calculus at Duke was a rude awakening for me.

[ClemmonsDevil]

My high school (small Shenandoah Valley town) did not offer any. Its idea of a high placement Math class was Senior Trig, and that was only for the top Math students. Calculus at Duke was a rude awakening for me.

I made 100 points highe verbal vs math on the SAT. i capped out at college trig. Scraped. SCRAPED out a B. 79.5. I knew I never wanted to take another math. I did take 2 stats courses, but I think of them more as logic than true math classes.

[BLPOG]

Physics used 51/52 for the first year classes.

Yeah that must have been was what I was mixing it up with, number-wise. Couldn't tell you the name of my lecturers for my life but my recitation professor was excellent. Very interesting person, too, and her son went to Duke a couple years behind me I think.

[Bostondevil]

Back in the day, even the best high schools only offered a few AP courses. I took what was available, but didn’t take many AP tests—my thinking was “why would I ever want to skip one year of college?” As an engineer, you could only place out of the Freshman writing course with a score >700 on the English Achievement test (which later became the SAT II), which I did. English AP would have gotten me nothing. Many other APs were not and still are not even recognized in the engineering school (physics, stats).

And even though Duke will award a maximum of 2 credits for APs, Duke and other elite schools still like to see students take as many AP courses as possible. They know how many APs are offered at different high schools, and they like to see students take advantage of those available to them. Students who don’t take many APs will have a tougher climb to get accepted. I could argue both sides of this. I agree that we put way too much pressure on kids in HS, but I will also say that the applicants I have interviewed (and the students I have met in my involvement with Pratt) are all so exceptional that I understand why those who have taken the most rigorous courseload seem to rise to the top of the pool. And, at least at Pratt, the curriculum is so challenging that those who have succeeded in a rigorous HS curriculum seem more likely to be successful at Pratt.

I recently interviewed a student for Duke who had taken 17 APs! (One was call “AP Seminar”)

Yes, but rigorous and AP are not synonymous. AP classes teach to a test and are therefore somewhat limited in scope. Teachers don't get questions ahead of time but they are advised on general areas that should be covered each year - so - that's what gets covered. I would argue that a student who foregoes the multitude of AP classes in favor of digging deeper into one or two areas of interest has a much more academically rigorous schedule than one who takes every AP class on offer. You only major in one or maybe two subjects in college. I'd prefer to see students who go beyond the expected. The expected is taking a bunch of APs.

Today's college admissions process favors extroverts over introverts, generalists over specialists, athletes over scholars (not saying athletes can't be good students, but unless an athletes' primary interest is their sport, they aren't going to be playing a D1 sport in college). The only reason a student is taking 17 AP classes is because it will "look good on their college application" - they may be very smart and able to handle such a schedule, but what is interesting about that student, really? What makes that student more worthy? Why should Duke favor that student when the competition for each slot is so high? College admissions are zero sum game. For every kid that is accepted, that means another one is not. I don't see the reasons why 17 AP classes is more impressive than someone who only took the AP classes in their favorite fields so that they would have more time in their schedule to pursue that field.

The AP tests used to be a way for kids to get through college in 3 years so that they could save money. Colleges got wise to that and stopped giving college credit for more than 2 courses - they want the 4 years of tuition money in exchange for their name on your degree, thank you very much. So really - what is the point of them now? More well off towns will offer more AP classes in the first place and students with the resources to pay for the exams are more likely to take those classes. They have morphed from a way to help students save some money into yet another expensive pre-req for entrance into the upper middle class. I, for one, would like to see AP classes de-emphasized although I suspect for very different reasons than what is going on in Florida.

[Skydog]

I had different circumstances than most: I went to a very small rural HS in Texas, only 55 students in my graduating class. Unsurprisingly my classes weren’t challenging at all and as a result I would have given my right nut for an opportunity to take an AP class.

Admittedly though - I would have had some serious thinking to do before taking my second class!

[snowdenscold]

This sums it up pretty well. I considered APs a positive: I was able to bank a bunch of college credits, graduate early, and save money. Not so much for my kids. While the HS advised them to take APs to make them more attractive college candidates (and they offer so many more APs these days so kids load up) this only helped them place out of intro college classes -- no credits. So these days I look at APs negatively as they ratchet up pressure on HS kids and don't help with graduating college early. And while APs get kids into more advanced college classes as soon as they land on campus, that just ratchets up the pressure adjusting to college. And don't get me started on the cost of taking the AP exams.

Yes, but rigorous and AP are not synonymous. AP classes teach to a test and are therefore somewhat limited in scope. Teachers don't get questions ahead of time but they are advised on general areas that should be covered each year - so - that's what gets covered. I would argue that a student who foregoes the multitude of AP classes in favor of digging deeper into one or two areas of interest has a much more academically rigorous schedule than one who takes every AP class on offer. You only major in one or maybe two subjects in college. I'd prefer to see students who go beyond the expected. The expected is taking a bunch of APs.
...

The AP tests used to be a way for kids to get through college in 3 years so that they could save money. Colleges got wise to that and stopped giving college credit for more than 2 courses - they want the 4 years of tuition money in exchange for their name on your degree, thank you very much. So really - what is the point of them now? More well off towns will offer more AP classes in the first place and students with the resources to pay for the exams are more likely to take those classes. They have morphed from a way to help students save some money into yet another expensive pre-req for entrance into the upper middle class. I, for one, would like to see AP classes de-emphasized although I suspect for very different reasons than what is going on in Florida.

Yeah I feel somewhat conflicted about the arms race all these AP's have become and not sure what we'll push for with our kids (still elementary) in the future - will we have to do a ton because everyone else is? Or will there be some sort of market correction in the next 5-10 years?



This Florida situation is interesting, because, regardless of the political culture war type reasons that ignited it, it does raise the question of how much a private monopolistic company with no real voter accountability should get to essentially dictate curriculum to any given state.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Yes, but rigorous and AP are not synonymous. AP classes teach to a test and are therefore somewhat limited in scope. Teachers don't get questions ahead of time but they are advised on general areas that should be covered each year - so - that's what gets covered. I would argue that a student who foregoes the multitude of AP classes in favor of digging deeper into one or two areas of interest has a much more academically rigorous schedule than one who takes every AP class on offer. You only major in one or maybe two subjects in college. I'd prefer to see students who go beyond the expected. The expected is taking a bunch of APs.

Today's college admissions process favors extroverts over introverts, generalists over specialists, athletes over scholars (not saying athletes can't be good students, but unless an athletes' primary interest is their sport, they aren't going to be playing a D1 sport in college). The only reason a student is taking 17 AP classes is because it will "look good on their college application" - they may be very smart and able to handle such a schedule, but what is interesting about that student, really? What makes that student more worthy? Why should Duke favor that student when the competition for each slot is so high? College admissions are zero sum game. For every kid that is accepted, that means another one is not. I don't see the reasons why 17 AP classes is more impressive than someone who only took the AP classes in their favorite fields so that they would have more time in their schedule to pursue that field.

The AP tests used to be a way for kids to get through college in 3 years so that they could save money. Colleges got wise to that and stopped giving college credit for more than 2 courses - they want the 4 years of tuition money in exchange for their name on your degree, thank you very much. So really - what is the point of them now? More well off towns will offer more AP classes in the first place and students with the resources to pay for the exams are more likely to take those classes. They have morphed from a way to help students save some money into yet another expensive pre-req for entrance into the upper middle class. I, for one, would like to see AP classes de-emphasized although I suspect for very different reasons than what is going on in Florida.

I largely agree. I do alumni interviewing for Duke, and informally advise the children of friends who are applying to college (I was on the admissions committee of my grad school, which is a very different process but gave me some perspective on things). I mainly interview kids from top NYC private and public schools, with a few others mixed in - most of these schools send lots of kids to schools like Duke.

If I had a kid tell me they were taking 17 APs that would set off alarms. I think that many high schools have learned to game the system so are calling classes "AP" when they really aren't. I have had friends tell me about their kids taking multiple AP classes as freshmen. These are bright kids but not off the charts bright. Those classes generally aren't AP. But many colleges unfortunately fall for this because they are so overwhelmed with applications so it is an easy way to sort things. So families get really stressed about how many APs their kids are taking when a) the classes aren't really APs, and b) it really shouldn't matter that much. 17 APs seems like cherry picking alleged APs classes to seem impressive.

Interestingly, I know a number of the top schools have stopped offering AP classes. I assume the rationale is that they don't need to justify how rigorous their curriculum is because the universities know them already, so they don't want to be beholden to that curriculum. I don't know what this means in terms of their students getting college credits.

On a related note, I see the role of the alumni interviewer as the one who makes sure that the applicant is truly well-rounded, thoughtful, and would be a contributing member to the community. Duke purposely does not provide the interviewer with grades and test scores. I ask about favorite classes and areas of interest to gauge intellectual curiosity more than intellectual horsepower - I leave that up to Duke - I don't want hear about how brilliant you think you are or how many AP classes you are taking.

I tend to prefer kids who are less "packaged" - I would rather have an applicant who scooped ice cream or worked at a day camp in the summer than one who claims they were giving investment ideas to their parents hedge fund or were drinking in a foreign country when claiming to be doing some kind of community service project there (some of the community service projects are legit and it is usually very easy to differentiate). These types of students, at least in my time at Duke, were what differentiated Duke from Ivies. Really smart kids but also ones who are well-rounded and don't feel the need to wear their IQ on their sleeve. In my grad school class, most of the Duke alums fit this mold, as compared to many from Ivies who had to constantly tell you how smart they were, and some of those from much lower "ranked" (I hate rankings) schools who had to advertise their brilliance to justify their place amongst all of the Ivy league types and that is how they distinguished themselves at those schools.

[Kdogg]

I have had friends tell me about their kids taking multiple AP classes as freshmen.

That’s allowed now? Times they are a changin. Only juniors and seniors were allowed to take them when I was in high school. The work is supposed to be “college level” so the vast majority of ninth graders aren’t ready. I‘m surprised colleges don’t match the AP courses taken with the AP exams a student takes. It seem class inflation has turned honors courses in to AP courses.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

That’s allowed now? Times they are a changin. Only juniors and seniors were allowed to take them when I was in high school. The work is supposed to be “college level” so the vast majority of ninth graders aren’t ready. I‘m surprised colleges don’t match the AP courses taken with the AP exams a student takes. It seem class inflation has turned honors courses in to AP courses.

I totally agree - that's why I mentioned it - I don't know if this is common or not but I have heard it multiple times. I guess the test results help to determine whether it was a legit AP or not. I do not envy admissions people having to decipher the different systems at numerous different high schools. As others have mentioned, in addition to allowing students to get college credits, APs were supposed to help normalize things across schools, but it really doesn't do this very well.

[snowdenscold]

If I had a kid tell me they were taking 17 APs that would set off alarms. I think that many high schools have learned to game the system so are calling classes "AP" when they really aren't. I have had friends tell me about their kids taking multiple AP classes as freshmen. These are bright kids but not off the charts bright. Those classes generally aren't AP. But many colleges unfortunately fall for this because they are so overwhelmed with applications so it is an easy way to sort things. So families get really stressed about how many APs their kids are taking when a) the classes aren't really APs, and b) it really shouldn't matter that much. 17 APs seems like cherry picking alleged APs classes to seem impressive.

Doesn't the CollegeBoard have all their courses/exams identified on their website? How can a school offer an inflated "AP" course that doesn't map exactly to one of those?

Or do they cram it all in those "Seminar" or "Research" courses I saw listed? (Not sure how much leeway a school has with those - they weren't around when I was in HS).

Also, in perusing the website I saw "AP Precalculus". Has that always been a course? Seems a little silly to me and an indicator of AP scope creep.

[75Crazie]

Also, in perusing the website I saw "AP Precalculus". Has that always been a course? Seems a little silly to me and an indicator of AP scope creep.

I was intrigued, so I googled "AP Precalculus" and found several references to the following common description:

In AP Precalculus, students explore everyday situations using mathematical tools and lenses. Through regular practice, students build deep mastery of modeling and functions, and they examine scenarios through multiple representations. They will learn how to observe, explore, and build mathematical meaning from dynamic systems, an important practice...

That really narrows it down for me.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Doesn't the CollegeBoard have all their courses/exams identified on their website? How can a school offer an inflated "AP" course that doesn't map exactly to one of those?

Or do they cram it all in those "Seminar" or "Research" courses I saw listed? (Not sure how much leeway a school has with those - they weren't around when I was in HS).

Also, in perusing the website I saw "AP Precalculus". Has that always been a course? Seems a little silly to me and an indicator of AP scope creep.

That is a great example - AP Precalc is a class that allows kids to claim they are taking tons of AP classes when it is not really a college level course - I assume Duke would not grant credit for it (looks like it is going live next year).

[Kdogg]

I was intrigued, so I googled "AP Precalculus" and found several references to the following common description:

That really narrows it down for me.

I checked the Wikipedia page because I was like WTH? Looks like it’s a combo Algebra II and Trig. It might be for kids that took Algebra I as a freshman instead of eighth grade. That would set them up for Calc as a senior. Still an AP level course?

Edit: Checked my flagship state university and they offer it.

I assume Duke would not grant credit for it (looks like it is going live next year).

I believe you are right. Duke didn’t offer anything lower than Calc I.

[cato]

Yes, but rigorous and AP are not synonymous. AP classes teach to a test and are therefore somewhat limited in scope. Teachers don't get questions ahead of time but they are advised on general areas that should be covered each year - so - that's what gets covered.

This was not the case at my high school back in the 90s. The AP teachers were passionate about their subjects and generally very demanding. My AP Western Civ (doubt they still offer that) teacher senior year scheduled an exam on “Senior Skip Day” just to make sure that he could get every instructional minute he could.

I didn’t even take the AP tests for Calc or Physics C (I already knew I wasn’t going to take math at Duke) but my in-class experience was almost the same as the kids who did.

Of course, I only took a handful of AP classes compared to what kids take today. Five if I recall correctly (US History, English, World History (?), Calc, Physics with Calc) and only three exams.

[Bostondevil]

This was not the case at my high school back in the 90s. The AP teachers were passionate about their subjects and generally very demanding. My AP Western Civ (doubt they still offer that) teacher senior year scheduled an exam on “Senior Skip Day” just to make sure that he could get every instructional minute he could.

I didn’t even take the AP tests for Calc or Physics C (I already knew I wasn’t going to take math at Duke) but my in-class experience was almost the same as the kids who did.

Of course, I only took a handful of AP classes compared to what kids take today. Five if I recall correctly (US History, English, World History (?), Calc, Physics with Calc) and only three exams.

Things have changed. I didn't say AP courses couldn't be rigorous, but one cannot assume that all of them are. Nor can one assume that non AP classes are less rigorous. One son took AP Calculus in high school, two others merely took calculus, not AP. Based on the homework assignments I saw them bring home, I suspect the non AP class was the better one to take if one was actually interested in learning calculus.

AP started as a way to help students save money in college. It's now a program designed to get money out of upper middle class parents.

Passionate and demanding teachers are not always good teachers. If they are passionate and demanding about their subject without being equally passionate about their students, the students probably aren't going to be passionate about the subject even if they do manage to do well in the class.

[kmspeaks]

I was much more impressed by the International Baccalaureate program as both a student and a high school teacher. My IB Anthropology class made me far better prepared to write papers in college than any AP student I've encountered, and when a conflict with softball practice forced me to take the chemistry for science majors class rather than the standard 101 intro, it was still easier than the Pre-IB chem that I took as a 10th grader.

I feel bad for students who feel like they have to play the game and take a certain number of APs to be competitive in college admissions, but the sad fact is the whole thing is designed just to make the College Board money not to actually help prepare them for college or beyond.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I was much more impressed by the International Baccalaureate program as both a student and a high school teacher. My IB Anthropology class made me far better prepared to write papers in college than any AP student I've encountered, and when a conflict with softball practice forced me to take the chemistry for science majors class rather than the standard 101 intro, it was still easier than the Pre-IB chem that I took as a 10th grader.

I feel bad for students who feel like they have to play the game and take a certain number of APs to be competitive in college admissions, but the sad fact is the whole thing is designed just to make the College Board money not to actually help prepare them for college or beyond.

I'd love to talk IB with you in PMs - I can't imagine many here would have interest.

[niveklaen]

My school did not offer many AP classes back when I was there - but thankfully you could take tests without taking the class so I was able to knock out more APs than my school offered. Helped me finish undergrad a yr early, but I am not sure I feel about giving college credit to kids who show up and pass a test cold - do they still allow that?