AP Courses

[Kdogg]

I narrowly missed passing that, but because everyone was saying how terrible the into physics classes were (even to the point of people wearing t-shirts that said "I Hate Duke Physics" - yikes!), I opted to take them over the summer at American University.

* I actually got to underload my last semester - taking 2 real courses, then bowling (1/2), Band (1/4) and Orchestra (1/4) to total 3 credits for the underload. I do feel a bit guilty and should probably write my dad a check to cover half that semester's tuition.

You probably took engineering physics like I did. I'm told the premed physics was the easy way out.
I eventually bought my parents a car to make up for the extra semesters I didn't need to graduate.

AP Calculus in HS led me to conclude that I never wanted to take another math class (and left me able to follow through on that goal). My only regret from that is that I wish now I had taken a statistics class - I have a good layman's working grasp of the concepts but not the underlying math. I've had to deal with quite a few statistical experts (or econometric experts who use statistical sampling techniques to draw conclusions) as a lawyer and I always feel like a better base knowledge of statistics would be helpful (sadly, clients do not pay for their lawyers to take stats classes).

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” - Mark Twain

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

AP Calculus in HS led me to conclude that I never wanted to take another math class (and left me able to follow through on that goal).

I had a horrible high school Calc teacher. I was a very gifted math student (immaculate test scores, on all sorts of dorky math teams that won at the state level) and that one teacher absolutely submarined my interest in the subject.

My math aptitude remains, but the bitter taste has long ago overtaken any recreational interest.

[Bostondevil]

You probably took engineering physics like I did. I'm told the premed physics was the easy way out.
I eventually bought my parents a car to make up for the extra semesters I didn't need to graduate.



“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” - Mark Twain

Note, the quote is NOT "Liars, damned liars, and statisticians." Using percent increase as an outcome measure is the easiest way to lie with statistics.

Always, always, always be suspicious of percent increase as an outcome measure, especially if it's in support of something you want to believe.

[aimo]

I had a horrible high school Calc teacher. I was a very gifted math student (immaculate test scores, on all sorts of dorky math teams that won at the state level) and that one teacher absolutely submarined my interest in the subject.

My math aptitude remains, but the bitter taste has long ago overtaken any recreational interest.

I had a horrible Advanced Math (mostly trig) teacher in HS. I mean, HORRIBLE! But I had a wonderful Calc teacher. The only reason I did so well on my AP Calc test. She retired the year I graduated, so I feel very fortunate she stuck it out that long.

[YmoBeThere]

I came in with a semester and a half worth of AP credits. Definitely contributed to my finishing on time. I was able to get a list of classes that several schools would take and use for placement and credit and used that to guide my AP class selection.

[jimmymax]

I took AP courses. I used two of them to place out of introductory courses in subjects where I really didn't need to start over - AB calculus and French.

The pressure on high school kids to take AP courses is too much. I am not a fan of the proliferation of AP courses and would be happy to see the emphasis on them lessened. The SAT, College Board, and AP programs are all a racket designed to get money out of upper middle class parents. My oldest took 7(!) AP classes - how in the world did I let him do that? I only found out later that he didn't really sleep during his high school years. My second son basically had a nervous breakdown during his junior year in high school when he was taking 3 AP classes. Between those 3 AP classes, he had 3+ hours of homework just about every night, and that was just the AP classes, he had 7 classes on his schedule. I told my third son he could only take 2 as a junior and in the end, he opted for just one. Granted, only my oldest son was accepted to Duke, the other two wound up going to the University of Vermont where they both had GPAs over 3.9. Third son wound up transferring to William & Mary when UVM got rid of their Classics major. (Yeah, it bugs me that my very bright, academically talented sons weren't accepted to Duke. Duke missed out.)

Given my sons' experiences in high school, I'm not a fan of the AP program. Of all the ones they took, collectively, AP US History is the worst, IMHO. It's an awful way to teach US history to high schoolers and way too high pressure. All of my sons love history as long as it isn't US history.

My youngest son is taking one AP class this year, his senior year in high school. He was encouraged by his advisor to take one. He's taking AP Computer Science and loves it. Go figure. He has no desire to study computer science in college though, he plans to major in photography. He won't be applying to Duke.

This sums it up pretty well. I considered APs a positive: I was able to bank a bunch of college credits, graduate early, and save money. Not so much for my kids. While the HS advised them to take APs to make them more attractive college candidates (and they offer so many more APs these days so kids load up) this only helped them place out of intro college classes -- no credits. So these days I look at APs negatively as they ratchet up pressure on HS kids and don't help with graduating college early. And while APs get kids into more advanced college classes as soon as they land on campus, that just ratchets up the pressure adjusting to college. And don't get me started on the cost of taking the AP exams. I told my kids, who were competitive academically, to take the AP classes for the GPA multiplier but skip the exam if you have no plans to take the subject in college. Interestingly the HS teachers really didn't like it when kids took an AP class but didn't sit the exam.

[Kdogg]

Interestingly the HS teachers really didn't like it when kids took an AP class but didn't sit the exam.

There’s a mix of reasons. Partly it’s because most teachers want to see the kids challenged themselves. Another part is probably because they can use it as a gauge for their own abilities (and pride). And part is because some school districts give a bonus to the teacher for every student that passes the exam.

[PackMan97]

I took AP Calculus and English but didn't sit for the exams, NC State had already told me I placed out of the first level thanks to my SAT scores. I didn't see the purpose.

I could have taken AP History, but didn't really enjoy history all that much, so passed on it. Those were the only courses offered by my high school, which was the largest in my area. Eastern NC just isn't the place for higher thinking.

[Jeffrey]

My son has an eye. Unlike the big public high school his brothers went to, my youngest goes to a very small private high school. Instead of gym class, the kids have to sign up for activities, one per trimester. Most of the activities are sports teams but one of the other offerings that my son has done twice is media intern. The school gives my kid a camera and has him take pictures of goings on around campus, including taking pictures of the sports teams. They now use two of the pictures he took as a media intern in their official brochure.

Everybody may be a photographer these days, very few are as good at it as my son already is. Plus, part of what he's learning is how to use all the digital equipment. He not only has a feel for when to hit the button, he's good at editing in post.

Your youngest son has been, and will always be, my hero! I’m sure he will always be successful in all of his challenges. Life is tough, but he is tougher. May he stay forever young.

[snowdenscold]

I enjoyed my AP Calc BC class in high school, but found the Multivariable course to be dreadful at Duke. I just didn't get it towards the end. Similarly Differential Equations was somewhat of a turnoff.

Then some years later I found MIT's Open Courseware and their DiffEQ and Multivar classes were awesome!

Between the main lectures (in the DiffEQ case recorded almost 20 years ago at this point, and the professor just recently passed away) and then supplemental recitation lectures done by TA's, it really clicked in a way that never did while on campus.

Nowadays there's so much great content on Youtube and other sites (if you can find the good stuff, because there's also a plethora of mediocre ones as well) it almost seems unfair.
Many of the YT comments are along the lines of "Wow thank you so much for explaining it like this; my professor is terrible and made zero sense and I was freaking out until I found this video"

[jimmymax]

I enjoyed my AP Calc BC class in high school, but found the Multivariable course to be dreadful at Duke. I just didn't get it towards the end. Similarly Differential Equations was somewhat of a turnoff.

Then some years later I found MIT's Open Courseware and their DiffEQ and Multivar classes were awesome!

Between the main lectures (in the DiffEQ case recorded almost 20 years ago at this point, and the professor just recently passed away) and then supplemental recitation lectures done by TA's, it really clicked in a way that never did while on campus.

Nowadays there's so much great content on Youtube and other sites (if you can find the good stuff, because there's also a plethora of mediocre ones as well) it almost seems unfair.
Many of the YT comments are along the lines of "Wow thank you so much for explaining it like this; my professor is terrible and made zero sense and I was freaking out until I found this video"

I loved multivar calc (Math 103?) at Duke (thanks Dr Kitchen) and it gave me credit for both semesters of regular calc (51 & 52?) but my diff equations prof was no bueno. Maybe I'll revisit online -- thanks for the idea!

[snowdenscold]

I loved multivar calc (Math 103?) at Duke (thanks Dr Kitchen) and it gave me credit for both semesters of regular calc (51 & 52?) but my diff equations prof was no bueno. Maybe I'll revisit online -- thanks for the idea!

Yeah I had someone else for Math 103 and it wasn't such a great experience.

On the MIT site, Prof. Auroux (18.02 - Multivariable) was very understandable, even with his French accent, and made me truly understand Stokes' Theorem finally. His eraser races against the moving blackboards were also quite fun.
And Prof. Mattuck (RIP) was outstanding for 18.03 (DiffEQ).

I also watched the 18.01 Calculus (equivalent of Calc I and II basically) just to see how it was (as I actually felt comfortable w/ that material already). It was years ago, but that one was pretty decent (IIRC) if you had any high schooler looking to hear it from another source. And 18.06 (Linear Algebra) with Gilbert Strang was pretty good too.

[ClemmonsDevil]

The most important thing that ever happened in my academic career was my freshman English teacher telling me to stay after class one afternoon about 6 weeks into my freshman year of high school. She told me I was wasting my time in her class and that she had talked to the Honors English teacher and they were going to move me in there at the end of that quarter. She told me she had already spoken to my parents about it that morning. It's scared me but I listened. So I pretty much just took Honors courses the rest of my high school career. My high school offered five AP courses and I took four of them. I probably could have scraped out a C in AP calculus, because I was at least willing to work hard. But the other four I made A's in and did really well on the tests. I got to count all of them and that saved me 14 hours in college. I can't think her enough for doing that. And I'm probably the target population for this conversation. For a kid from Surry county, they offered me a path out that I didn't really know existed. I didn't know the career that I have was available for kids like me. So I support them, while recognizing that parents and kids can place way too much emphasis on these things. I remember making A's and B's in college courses that were pretty tough and being just absolutely thrilled that I was able to do that. They gave me a lot of confidence.

[Bostondevil]

I loved multivar calc (Math 103?) at Duke (thanks Dr Kitchen) and it gave me credit for both semesters of regular calc (51 & 52?) but my diff equations prof was no bueno. Maybe I'll revisit online -- thanks for the idea!

I didn't take Diff EQs at Duke because of the professor whose name escapes me at the moment, but yeah, no bueno. I was off into probability and statistics by then anyway.

I firmly believe that everyone who is "good at math" eventually gets to that one course that tells them - yeah, you've been good up until now, but you've hit your ceiling. For me, it was my senior year when I took abstract algebra - also with Dr. Kitchen. I think the course was officially called Algebraic Structures - heck if I know what it was about. I got a C my first semester and an A second semester. Our entire grade was a project second semester and even though I didn't understand most of it, I did a bang up job referencing all the proofs I couldn't do myself.

[jimmymax]

I firmly believe that everyone who is "good at math" eventually gets to that one course that tells them - yeah, you've been good up until now, but you've hit your ceiling.

For sure! For me it was Advanced Calc with the male Dr Hodel (his wife was also in the Math dept). He was the nicest guy -- but there were no numbers -- and I never took Greek so when the case of the Greek letters started to matter, I was out. Switched to computer science!

[BLPOG]

Re: Math at Duke, at least on the engineering path and before the course renumbering in ~2014...

If I recall correctly, Math 52 was the "Calc II/Calc BC" class and had the highest number of failing grades of any course. Math 103 was multivariable/vector calculus and had the highest rate of failure. I got credit for Calc II from my BC AP score, but Pratt doesn't credit for vector calculus taken beforehand. They do allow you to skip the class provided that your subsequent grades are high enough and you make up the math credit elsewhere.

They don't give credit and don't allow you to skip Linear Algebra or Differential Equations at all. I had already taken linear algebra (as "Matrix Theory") and was pretty good at it, so despite the abysmal instruction and falling asleep during one midterm (I had a busy first semester) I managed a good grade in the class.

Differential Equations was another matter. IIRC, I had actually used a MUCH earlier edition of the same textbook in high school, by some guys named Boyce and DiPrima (the fact I remember should be some indication of the mental scars). Most of the course was manageable despite, again, terrible instruction and course design for the same reason I did alright in linear algebra. Then came the final part of the course - boundary value problems - which I don't think were even included in the earlier edition of the text.

No bueno is right. I still remember that the final exam was three hours and 11 questions. Got through the first 6 in an hour, thought I was on a roll. Spent the next 50 minutes solving an extremely tedious Laplace transform question and was utterly boned for the last four. I think I ended up with a 90 on the exam. Trouble is the test was out of 150.

[Kdogg]

I loved multivar calc (Math 103?) at Duke (thanks Dr Kitchen) and it gave me credit for both semesters of regular calc (51 & 52?) but my diff equations prof was no bueno. Maybe I'll revisit online -- thanks for the idea!

The quality of Math 103 ran the gambit from terrible to great based on the teacher. I don't know of any other class with that level of variance. I think there was four teachers the semester I took it and two were grad students (one experienced and one not). I signed up for Hodel but they changed her classes and got the newbie grad student. It was bad. Quickly switch to Kitchen. The other grad student ran a notoriously difficult Math 32 section but apparently had his thesis approved and ran an easy 103 class. I remember my next math class (105 or 109) was much easier.

For sure! For me it was Advanced Calc with the male Dr Hodel (his wife was also in the Math dept). He was the nicest guy -- but there were no numbers -- and I never took Greek so when the case of the Greek letters started to matter, I was out. Switched to computer science!

His wife was also a great teacher and my favorite Math prof. She made it a point to learn every students name even though 95% of us never said a word in class. She was an absolute gem.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I went to Duke in the mid-90s. I took about 4 APs a year junior and senior year in HS at a competitive suburban public school. My junior year I took US History, Chem and BC Calc tests and they ended up on three consecutive days, which was brutal. I got credit for US history. I took AP Chem with a great teacher but got a 3. I was a social sciences major but took the full year of Bonkistry and found it relatively easy because of my strong background - all the pre-meds were stressed by it.

I took BC Calc as a junior in HS, bombed the AP as it was my third test in three days, so audited it my senior year and got a 4. That got me out of math 31 and 32 at Duke. I didn't take math my freshman year at Duke so when I took 103 as a sophomore it was really rough. It wasn't made easier by a prof/grad student (I don't remember which) who didn't speak very good English. That was my worst grade at Duke and the end of my math career.

I didn't take the exams for the rest of my AP classes. I either didn't feel very well prepared (my AP Physics teacher went on leave for two months), I didn't want to skip the intro class, or it wouldn't have done much for me in terms of credit.

Students in the northeast are greatly disadvantaged on APs because school starts much later - the tests are in early-mid May. We started school after Labor Day and ran until late June, so had a lot less time to get through the material. The nice part of it was that after the exam, we had over a month of basically doing nothing - we would often do special projects, but senior year that was a joke.

[BLPOG]

<snip>If I recall correctly, Math 52 was the "Calc II/Calc BC" class</snip>

Math 32

[BigWayne]

AP today is a whole different world from when I was taking them. Part of the reason I went to Duke was because at the time I could get full credit for my AP scores.
I had two semester credits in US History, Calculus, and Chemistry. I got a conditional for a 3 on English (had to take another English course to cash it in). I passed the mechanics part of they Physics exam, but failed the electrical because my HS AP physics was taken from B&W films taped by some guy in Pittsburgh in the 50s. A lot changed between the 50s and the late 70s in the electrical world. For those keeping score, that meant I was able to graduate in 3 years with a normal course load.

At the time, a guy I went to HS with went to MIT. They would only even recognize AP if you got a 5. That would allow you to take an exam at MIT to place out of a course, but no credit was given. One of multiple reasons I didn't go to MIT.