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  1. #181
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    It seemed like one-half of the TOs could be classified as, "Took the ball out of the Duke player's hands." That should happen maybe once a game, not ten times (almost all leading to Miami baskets).

    We didn't compete.

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The board was just as complainy during the 2007-2009 seasons, and well into the 2010 season. So while folks may say that they enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years, that certainly hasn’t been exhibited at DBR.

    Basically, folks complain whenever the team isn’t as good as they want. In 2007-09, it was complaints about Duke not being able to get the top talent anymore. In 2012-2014, it was not enough of the top talent. Now, it is that we get too much top talent and those guys don’t stay.
    Can you name me a fanbase across any major sport (amateur or professional) that doesn't do this? I'd love to hear about one.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Can you name me a fanbase across any major sport (amateur or professional) that doesn't do this? I'd love to hear about one.
    In addition, the ratio of "complainers" to "applauders"is about 5:1 across the human race.

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    In addition, the ratio of "complainers" to "applauders"is about 5:1 across the human race.
    Haven't you got anything better to say than that? (There, I just proved your point. LOL )

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Without the so-called "complainers," there's no dialogue on a message board like this. Everyone would agree on everything and no fun will be had. I don't even view it as complaints, most of the posts which can be construed as negative are just pointing out the flaws in each of our teams, and how we hope things can improve either this season or next. There will never be a perfect team, but we'll always strive for perfection anyway.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    In addition, the ratio of "complainers" to "applauders"is about 5:1 across the human race.
    That ratio feels weirdly accurate on DBR...
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    In addition, the ratio of "complainers" to "applauders"is about 5:1 across the human race.
    A lot higher on Twitter

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Everyone would agree on everything and no fun will be had.
    Agreed.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  9. #189

    trying to be fair

    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Agree.

    Miami came out with the idea that they would push the envelope physically, and then went an additional notch beyond that. The gameplan was to hope that we were physically and spiritually hungover from the Carolina game and that the refs would allow the physical play on their home floor.

    We were not ready for it, but eventually began putting up a fight a bit into the first half. The story of the game was Roach on the floor. The Miami defenders were shoving, pushing, reaching on every drive. This led to our team, particularly Proctor, playing nervous, not wanting to lose the ball from the shove or reach of an overly physical Miami defender. The irony of course, is that we started to play too tight, and the looseness we needed was gone.

    Omiar set illegal screen after illegal screen. There was a sequence on a dribble hand off where he literally spun 360 degrees into a screen and into a Duke player after a handoff. No call, of course. Grandy almost got a concussion from a Miami knee to the neck, it got so physical.

    I was impressed that we stuck to our offense and noone started playing hero ball. Hopefully this gives us an idea of what to expect from Virginia on Saturday. This was 2017 South Carolina all over again. A tall task for a young team.
    Agree with this. I was in the building and while it wasn't Cameron, the place was rocking. They were hungry.

    It appeared to me that our guys were putting forth a lot of effort and didn't quite understand why things weren't working as they expected.

    I've been thinking about how narrow a window there is to perform at an elite athletic level. The littlest things can throw you off-especially if you're inexperienced. As K would say, we were 'knocked back' in the first few minutes of the game and never able to get things going.

    I felt sorry for our guys last night. I really felt sorry for Scheyer.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    It takes more than a season. Especially when two key members are in and out of the lineup and practice with injuries.

    This team, and nearly every freshman-dominated team before it, are never going to be as mature as teams with guys ages 22-24.That's the reality of being a freshman-heavy team. The team is always going to be a young team. The hope is that the talent offsets the youth. It's not an excuse. It's just reality. It's a reality that each season we hope to overcome, but it's a reality.
    The hope was that Whitehead and Lively would be the talent given their lofty rankings- but while they have shown flashes- they have been unable to get on track. That is the main reason this team has been inconsistent and prone to very bad games. Whitehead had 10 points against Miami in Cameron and he was looking like he was turning a corner at VT before the injury. A healthy Whitehead and Roach from the get go -and this team would have a few more wins I am guessing. But that is basketball. There is no one to blame but the basketball Gods. For talent to offset youth you also need health Ö and some luck.

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rougemont Nebulae
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    A lot higher on Twitter
    Except when people perceive an observation as a complaint. Let's not miss an opportunity to be sanctimonious, that would be truly tragic.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Virginia Beach
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Can you name me a fanbase across any major sport (amateur or professional) that doesn't do this? I'd love to hear about one.

    Chicago Cubs fans, circa 1970 - 2000?

  13. #193
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Can you name me a fanbase across any major sport (amateur or professional) that doesn't do this? I'd love to hear about one.
    Oh I certainly wasn't suggesting Duke is unique in this aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Without the so-called "complainers," there's no dialogue on a message board like this. Everyone would agree on everything and no fun will be had. I don't even view it as complaints, most of the posts which can be construed as negative are just pointing out the flaws in each of our teams, and how we hope things can improve either this season or next. There will never be a perfect team, but we'll always strive for perfection anyway.
    SOME of the negative posts are just pointing out flaws. I think there is a substantial proportion that are just venting overreactions (which are supposed to be against the rules, but I understand the mods give a little leeway on this unless it's really bad).

    I agree that dissenting views are important. But totally irrational negativity isn't useful for conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    The hope was that Whitehead and Lively would be the talent given their lofty rankings- but while they have shown flashes- they have been unable to get on track. That is the main reason this team has been inconsistent and prone to very bad games. Whitehead had 10 points against Miami in Cameron and he was looking like he was turning a corner at VT before the injury. A healthy Whitehead and Roach from the get go -and this team would have a few more wins I am guessing. But that is basketball. There is no one to blame but the basketball Gods. For talent to offset youth you also need health Ö and some luck.
    I agree that the biggest reason we have been not as good as expected is the struggles of Whitehead and Lively. I'm not sure I'd say that Whitehead was really turning the corner before injury, but Lively definitely is. Hopefully Whitehead can turn the corner somewhat. If Whitehead can just give us slightly better than Cam Reddish level play (something in the 4.5-5 BPM range) instead of what he's done thus far (1.3 BPM), that would be a huge boost. And if Lively continues to be the guy he has been the past 6 games (6.8 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.2 bpg in just 22.7 mpg), that bodes well.

    But the other issue holding the team back is that the guard play hasn't been strong. It's somewhat understandable: the only PG we have didn't arrive until after the summer, and has thus been playing catchup. And, frankly, he wasn't expected to be a star this year anyway. Proctor has shown a lot of progress, but obviously last night was a big step backwards for him. Hopefully he can bounce back. We saw last night that the team really struggles to function when the guards are bad. And both guards were bad. We have been able to win games if one or the other is good, but when both are bad it's really hard to overcome.

  14. #194

    Trying to help here

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Agreed.
    I completely disagree!
    ďI love it. Coach, when we came here, we had a three-hour meeting about the core values. If you really represent the core values, it means diving on the floor, sacrificing your body for your teammates, no matter how much youíre up by or how much youíre down by, always playing hard.Ē -- Zion

  15. #195
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Oh I certainly wasn't suggesting Duke is unique in this aspect.



    SOME of the negative posts are just pointing out flaws. I think there is a substantial proportion that are just venting overreactions (which are supposed to be against the rules, but I understand the mods give a little leeway on this unless it's really bad).

    I agree that dissenting views are important. But totally irrational negativity isn't useful for conversation.



    I agree that the biggest reason we have been not as good as expected is the struggles of Whitehead and Lively. I'm not sure I'd say that Whitehead was really turning the corner before injury, but Lively definitely is. Hopefully Whitehead can turn the corner somewhat. If Whitehead can just give us slightly better than Cam Reddish level play (something in the 4.5-5 BPM range) instead of what he's done thus far (1.3 BPM), that would be a huge boost. And if Lively continues to be the guy he has been the past 6 games (6.8 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.2 bpg in just 22.7 mpg), that bodes well.

    But the other issue holding the team back is that the guard play hasn't been strong. It's somewhat understandable: the only PG we have didn't arrive until after the summer, and has thus been playing catchup. And, frankly, he wasn't expected to be a star this year anyway. Proctor has shown a lot of progress, but obviously last night was a big step backwards for him. Hopefully he can bounce back. We saw last night that the team really struggles to function when the guards are bad. And both guards were bad. We have been able to win games if one or the other is good, but when both are bad it's really hard to overcome.
    All Duke really needs from Whitehead are rebounds, defense and outside shooting. Anything else is gravy.

    Guard play has definitely been an issue and I noticed that teams that successfully speed Duke/Roach/Proctor up are major problems. Duke plays best when they can control a slower pace.

  16. #196
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The board was just as complainy during the 2007-2009 seasons, and well into the 2010 season. So while folks may say that they enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years, that certainly hasnít been exhibited at DBR.

    Basically, folks complain whenever the team isnít as good as they want. In 2007-09, it was complaints about Duke not being able to get the top talent anymore. In 2012-2014, it was not enough of the top talent. Now, it is that we get too much top talent and those guys donít stay.
    Thereís no hive mind at play here - youíre very likely remembering different takes from different groups of users and painting with a broad brushstroke. Plus, all of those points were valid at some point in time. Thereís no such thing as a perfect team, and because of that, thereís no such thing as a message board with a 100% positivity rate.

    I havenít seen too many (if any) comments that cross the line from reasonable criticism to unnecessary bashing. Acknowledging flaws keeps discussion from getting stale. Thereís nothing wrong with wanting your team to do better and weighing in on areas for opportunity, especially with a game as complex and multifaceted as basketball - Iíd expect that of any fan.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The board was just as complainy during the 2007-2009 seasons, and well into the 2010 season. So while folks may say that they enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years, that certainly hasnít been exhibited at DBR.
    I think you are conflating two different things. I can "enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years" and still be frustrated with some results.

    My joy over seeing Quinn Cook win a title was absolutely amplified by watching him get better and work through his struggles over his time at Duke. Those struggles are frustrating to watch at the time.

    I try to not focus my personal frustrations on the 18 year old kids. Some folks are less... forgiving in that regard. I also feel less dejection from individual losses than other people seem to.

  18. #198
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I think you are conflating two different things. I can "enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years" and still be frustrated with some results.

    My joy over seeing Quinn Cook win a title was absolutely amplified by watching him get better and work through his struggles over his time at Duke. Those struggles are frustrating to watch at the time.

    I try to not focus my personal frustrations on the 18 year old kids. Some folks are less... forgiving in that regard. I also feel less dejection from individual losses than other people seem to.
    The ones who are truly okay with watching guys develop over 3-4 years aren't the ones I'm talking about. There are plenty of folks who truly prefer watching the development of a team over years rather than weeks. They just aren't the ones who go off the deep end after losses. And I suspect they aren't typically the ones who bring it up after losses.

    My point was more that having 3-4 year players wouldn't change the mood at DBR when we struggle. I would suspect the same folks who go off the deep end after losses would still do so. It would just be that having 3-4 year players change the specific complaint.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The ones who are truly okay with watching guys develop over 3-4 years aren't the ones I'm talking about. There are plenty of folks who truly prefer watching the development of a team over years rather than weeks. They just aren't the ones who go off the deep end after losses. And I suspect they aren't typically the ones who bring it up after losses.

    My point was more that having 3-4 year players wouldn't change the mood at DBR when we struggle. I would suspect the same folks who go off the deep end after losses would still do so. It would just be that having 3-4 year players change the specific complaint.
    Oh, yes I agree 100%. The hot take nervous people who freak out after any loss would not be satisfied by simply having players in the program longer.

  20. #200
    I'm way late to this thread, but I'm still riding the high from last Saturday. What Miami game?
    Trinity 2012

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