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  1. #61
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I am not saying we are FF calibre or anything, but we did beat Miami this year, and not that long ago. We are bad on the road, largely. A season can’t be judged until the last game is played.
    Yeah the team has talent. It also has some serious consistency problems. Hopefully they can figure it out. Getting healthy would be a start. But really the guards have to play much better. They had been doing so, and the results were improving. But tonight they fell apart.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    This is a well worn discussion, but one and done heavy teams have outperformed experienced teams very clearly
    No they don't, and over time the program gets worse because once you have a reputation for being 1AD, nobody who's on the 2nd tier who expect to take a year or 2 to develop is interested in your program, because they are worried about being recruited over by the next class, and the only 2nd tier players you get and those who have delusions of being 1AD without the talent. So your program gets gutted every year by departures from both the top 10 players and the 2nd tier players.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Hilton Head, SC
    Tonight’s game was a very bad look for Duke and its coach. I wonder if Scheyer will approach this game like Coach K reacted after U Va beat them like a drum in the ACC Tournament early in his career. Here’s to never forgetting what Miami did to us tonight. We exhibited no poise and were not competitive to the point I turned off the game before it ended.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by PSurprise View Post
    Very frustrating seeing the lack of improvement in this team. Are any of our guys better basketball players than they were at the beginning of the season? There are some serious fundamental flaws in this team which I'm sorry to say looks like will hinder this team the rest of the year. I suppose there's still time for the 'lightbulb' to come on, which gives me a little glimmer of hope. But that hope is fading fast as the season is heading to it's conclusion.
    ??? Did you not think Lively is better than he was at the beginning of the season? Do you see no improvement in Proctor? This was a bad loss after an emotional win with little time to prepare. No idea what team you have been watching.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    No they don't, and over time the program gets worse because once you have a reputation for being 1AD, nobody who's on the 2nd tier who expect to take a year or 2 to develop is interested in your program, because they are worried about being recruited over by the next class, and the only 2nd tier players you get and those who have delusions of being 1AD without the talent. So your program gets gutted every year by departures from both the top 10 players and the 2nd tier players.
    You’re wrong. There is a very small sample of multiple one and done teams. Those teams have done very well overall. Certainly way better than any reasonable sample of more experienced teams. The analysis has been posted here by others multiple times.

  6. #66
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is online now Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Storrs, CT
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    All due respect, but we gotta get over this. Whitehead has missed a lot of the season. He was nothing like the player we expected when he did play -- and I'm assuming he was fully healthy or he wouldn't have played when he did. And now of course he's out again and we really don't know when he'll be back and certainly don't know at what level he'll be able to play. There should be zero expectations that we are getting the type of transformative player we thought we were getting before the season started. So this is our team. It doesn't include, and won't include, the Dariq Whitehead we expected to see. We have to face that reality and stop using his loss as a crutch to excuse this or that. Our team is flawed, obviously. We can beat good teams, and we have done so at home and on neutral floors, and we've had a number of blowout losses, only one of which was to a true national contender. I agree with you that our standard should not be "national championship or bust" as that only sets us up for disappointment most years, but the reality is that this team, at least at this point, has not shown the ability to beat 6 NCAA tournament-quality teams in a row. Not even close.
    I think we agree 99.9% here. The point I was trying to make is that our preseason aspirations were contingent a lot on Dariq, and the poster in question should likely adjust accordingly.

    Someone in the UNC postgame thread, or the Dariq focused thread, said that they’d have been shocked if you told them preseason we beat UNC without Dariq. I think that’s a spot on way to reorient ourselves headed into the stretch run (and should help us appreciate Saturday all the more). And that’s what I was trying to get across, although I definitely didn’t do that directly given the post in question I was responding to.
    Scott Rich on the front page

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  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    This was over right when it started. Truly a bummer that we got 2 Monday night road games right after a Saturday game.1 Miami is a bad defensive team, like really bad.2 Fatigue was of course a factor but tonight was also indicative for how bad this team is offensively. It was nice to have a small and unexpected glimmer of hope for the ACC race.3 That’s gone now. Hope the guys rest up for Saturday.
    1. We're lucky that Louisville was worse than anybody expected. There were plenty of games you could feature tonight: UVA-Syracuse (last week's Monday), UVA-VT, FSU-Miami (based on preseason). Nielsen sweeps, the real culprit here, allows Duke to have 2 Monday games without the slot after Duke-UNC.

    2. As noted before, Miami's defense is good when they get their hands on the ball before the shot. Hang on to the ball, and they are worse than their 100+ rating on kenpom.

    3. The #4 seed is all you need for the ACC Tournament. I could see us winning the entire stretch from ND through NCSU. It's a bunch of home games where Duke can be 20+ points better and only Syracuse on the road.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA

    Duke Chronicle review

    Well written critique is written by Max Rego at the student newspaper.
    https://www.dukechronicle.com/articl...on-scheyer-acc

    "Duke, on the contrary, could not get going in the slightest offensively, as Filipowski, Lively and Grandison all had trouble finishing around the rim. By the under-12 timeout, the Blue Devils trailed 17-7, were yet to hit a triple and seemed to have a serious case of the Mondays."

    1.Manic Monday or 2. I don't like Mondays or 3.Rainy Days and Monday always get me down.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    No they don't, and over time the program gets worse because once you have a reputation for being 1AD, nobody who's on the 2nd tier who expect to take a year or 2 to develop is interested in your program, because they are worried about being recruited over by the next class, and the only 2nd tier players you get and those who have delusions of being 1AD without the talent. So your program gets gutted every year by departures from both the top 10 players and the 2nd tier players.
    Yes, they DO outperform veteran teams in terms of NCAA tourney success. It is just that there are so few of them that it becomes a numbers game problem. Comparing one team to 30-40 teams will never look good. But comparing one team to any other single team, the one-and-done heavy teams have fared better.

    It is true that roster turnover becomes a problem, and that makes the use of the transfer portal more necessary.

  10. #70
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is online now Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yes, they DO outperform veteran teams in terms of NCAA tourney success. It is just that there are so few of them that it becomes a numbers game problem. Comparing one team to 30-40 teams will never look good. But comparing one team to any other single team, the one-and-done heavy teams have fared better.

    It is true that roster turnover becomes a problem, and that makes the use of the transfer portal more necessary.
    There’s a reason there’s a whole field of statistics devoted to finding appropriate ways to comparing populations with very different sizes. Often our intuition doesn’t match the data, and we’re too hard wired to believe our intuition…
    Scott Rich on the front page

    Trinity BS 2012; University of Michigan PhD 2018
    Duke Chronicle, Sports Online Editor: 2010-2012
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    If you have questions about Michigan Basketball/Football, I'm your man!

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by iragsdale View Post
    Miami did not look at all like a bad defensive team tonight. Makes me think their lack of defense thus far has been more about effort and motivation than ability. Tonight they looked locked in and played really hard, perhaps the opportunity for payback in front of their first sellout crowd added the missing motivation.
    In conference play Miami’s defense has been better than ours per Kenpom

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Dur'm
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    Before the board goes nuclear, let’s please remember that many of us chalked this up as a likely loss when the schedule was announced… and that was assuming we had a healthy Dariq Whitehead.
    This was said in the pre-game thread, too, but nobody chalked this up as a shellacking. We got waxed by 22, and that might be an understatement of how the game actually went. I'm not a big believer in going nuclear, but if there's a game where I'm tempted, this and the State game were it. We just didn't compete tonight.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    Well, we lost, but I liked the effort.
    Agree.

    Miami came out with the idea that they would push the envelope physically, and then went an additional notch beyond that. The gameplan was to hope that we were physically and spiritually hungover from the Carolina game and that the refs would allow the physical play on their home floor.

    We were not ready for it, but eventually began putting up a fight a bit into the first half. The story of the game was Roach on the floor. The Miami defenders were shoving, pushing, reaching on every drive. This led to our team, particularly Proctor, playing nervous, not wanting to lose the ball from the shove or reach of an overly physical Miami defender. The irony of course, is that we started to play too tight, and the looseness we needed was gone.

    Omiar set illegal screen after illegal screen. There was a sequence on a dribble hand off where he literally spun 360 degrees into a screen and into a Duke player after a handoff. No call, of course. Grandy almost got a concussion from a Miami knee to the neck, it got so physical.

    I was impressed that we stuck to our offense and noone started playing hero ball. Hopefully this gives us an idea of what to expect from Virginia on Saturday. This was 2017 South Carolina all over again. A tall task for a young team.
    Hard at work making beautiful things.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    In terms of positives… there are just three:
    1. Lively continued his solid play. After getting in early foul trouble, he improved in the second half.
    2. Grandison was very steady and effective.
    3. Young had a solid game. He and Grandison largely kept the game within reason when they were on the floor.

    That’s about it. The turnovers were backbreaking, as were the missed shots. The team defense wasn’t bad in the first 16 or so minutes, but the wheels just came off. And the offense never got it together.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    5 thoughts...

    1. Geez... that was... awful. My actual 5 thoughts would be turnovers, didn't come to compete, lack of poise, turnovers (for emphasis) and turnovers (again, for more emphasis). But I'll take a mulligan on my first thought, and start over...

    1. Outrebounded both offensively and defensively. That's lack of effort against a much small smaller team.

    2. Flip had... wait for it... zero FTs. Ugh... Proctor played young, very young. He was so jittery. I'm positive the staff will make sure he learns from his experience, but it's up to him to show up better mentally.

    3. Gotta say something positive. It's easy to find something good when everything else seemed so bad. But Lively played decently. Co-leading the team in this game in points is fool's gold. But 5 blocks, and he only had 2 fouls. Sure, he wasn't perfect. But he should get an award this game - he had 0 turnovers.

    4. Not trying to make excuses, but the starters played so many minutes on Saturday. And with the quick turnaround and travel, it could be that they were tired. Not jumping strong out of the gate may have doomed them to have weary legs. This is why I think it's important that Whitehead comes back again and can take up some minutes. I do think Duke needs him in order to advance past the first weekend in the NCAAs. No one else on this team seems to have the potential to step it up and do what it takes to help the team win (please someone else surprise me!).

    5. It was always a distinct possibility that Duke could lose at Miami, so the loss itself does not upset me. Like many of you, it's how they lost. Fraschilla is no sage by saying that's what happens with young teams. But it's now all about the next play. How will they respond at UVA? I'm guessing practice won't be so easy tomorrow and Wednesday.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  16. #76
    Miami was so on fire and we were clearly not fully engaged. They were much faster to the ball, more aggressive and inspired. I’m still in the afterglow of Saturday and remain optimistic against Virginia, whom were usually strong against.

  17. #77
    Miami is a tough matchup for us tactically. Laranaga's teams are so good off the dribble and they are pretty much tailor made to be able to attack a Duke defense. While their defense is not very good, they do have quick guards capable of attacking and creating turnovers. It was a prime spot for a Duke letdown against a decent team on the road that presents matchup problems. It also happened that Miami was really, really up for the game.

    I'm not mad at the loss. I'm mad at the way Duke responded to all of the above. I'm not going nuclear- it is just one game, after all. But I'm disappointed in Duke's leaders both on the court and on the bench, in the way they let things get so unraveled.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    Before the board goes nuclear, let’s please remember that many of us chalked this up as a likely loss when the schedule was announced… and that was assuming we had a healthy Dariq Whitehead.

    That said, we played poorly. Miami played excellent. Not sure how much more we can take from this one.

    Saturday we’ll learn a lot about whether the real Duke is closer to what we saw Saturday or what we saw tonight.

    Next play.

    P.S. We saw a little of a Ryan and Derrick playing together in the second. Could be an interesting wrinkle, could be desperation. Worth a note.
    Every deficiency the team had was highlighted tonight including coaching. I’ll never stop supporting them but this team is no final 4 or even an Elite 8 team. Not even close.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Somehow we shot over 40% from the field. 21 turnovers though, yikes yikes yikes.
    Queue up DBR soundtrack of someone popping in to give us a lecture about how the turnovers didn't actually matter.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Agree.

    Miami came out with the idea that they would push the envelope physically, and then went an additional notch beyond that. The gameplan was to hope that we were physically and spiritually hungover from the Carolina game and that the refs would allow the physical play on their home floor.

    We were not ready for it, but eventually began putting up a fight a bit into the first half. The story of the game was Roach on the floor. The Miami defenders were shoving, pushing, reaching on every drive. This led to our team, particularly Proctor, playing nervous, not wanting to lose the ball from the shove or reach of an overly physical Miami defender. The irony of course, is that we started to play too tight, and the looseness we needed was gone.

    Omiar set illegal screen after illegal screen. There was a sequence on a dribble hand off where he literally spun 360 degrees into a screen and into a Duke player after a handoff. No call, of course. Grandy almost got a concussion from a Miami knee to the neck, it got so physical.

    I was impressed that we stuck to our offense and noone started playing hero ball. Hopefully this gives us an idea of what to expect from Virginia on Saturday. This was 2017 South Carolina all over again. A tall task for a young team.
    So you're not seriously blaming the referees for this loss are you? This board is amazing sometimes with that. The refs, IMO, had NOTHING to do with this loss. Miami played great basketball from the opening tip, at both ends of the floor, and we were terrible from the opening tip, at both ends of the floor. Period. Can't stand the whining about the refs after every single fricking loss. It should be beneath this board, but it obviously isn't.

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