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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA

    THE flagrant non-call (you know what I mean)

    I've seen the non-call in the VaTech game against Flip discussed in multiple threads. I think we have a consensus that a flagrant should have been called. Shout out to iragsdale for providing the official rules on flagrants from the NCAA rule book.

    IMG_7520.jpg

    The celebration punch is not a part of a legal offensive or defensive play, a "normal basketball play". I've seen it discussed on ESPN and ACC Network where there was disbelief that it was not called. So it's not just us Duke fans scratching our heads over this. Here's everyone's favorite ESPN studio guy, and big toe, talking about it:



    From the postgame press conference, Scheyer said this:

    On Filipowski getting hit in the throat on the last play and his mindset:
    ďI can tell you, in that play, he got hit so hard that he was throwing up in the huddle. He was full-out throwing up, and he wasnít
    about to be out for a second. He was ready to come back in, and we ended up drawing up the play, and put the ball in his hands and
    we just missed the shot. Thatís what happened right before, and heís a big-time warrior, man. Heís a competitor. He hates to lose, I
    thought you could see that tonight. He really put us on his back and willed us to put us in a position to win that game.Ē

    But this doesn't address the non-call. Neither did the DBR front page, which basically said the same thing about the situation as Scheyer did.

    So I just wanted to open a specific thread and ask the question: Has there been any official comment by the ACC, by VaTech or by Duke, or by anybody else other than posters, sportwriters, bloggers and talking heads about the non-call? I've been searching but haven't found anything. To me, they need to admit it was a missed call. Because if they don't, the offender can just say, "I was celebrating, it was incidental!". It doesn't change the outcome of the game, obviously.

    No need to post that you also think it was a missed call. Now if you think it was the correct call, I'm sure people would like to hear the reasoning (other than, "the refs didn't call it"). But any official statements are what I'm looking for.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    I've seen the non-call in the VaTech game against Flip discussed in multiple threads. I think we have a consensus that a flagrant should have been called. Shout out to iragsdale for providing the official rules on flagrants from the NCAA rule book.

    IMG_7520.jpg

    The celebration punch is not a part of a legal offensive or defensive play, a "normal basketball play". I've seen it discussed on ESPN and ACC Network where there was disbelief that it was not called. So it's not just us Duke fans scratching our heads over this. Here's everyone's favorite ESPN studio guy, and big toe, talking about it:



    From the postgame press conference, Scheyer said this:

    On Filipowski getting hit in the throat on the last play and his mindset:
    ďI can tell you, in that play, he got hit so hard that he was throwing up in the huddle. He was full-out throwing up, and he wasnít
    about to be out for a second. He was ready to come back in, and we ended up drawing up the play, and put the ball in his hands and
    we just missed the shot. Thatís what happened right before, and heís a big-time warrior, man. Heís a competitor. He hates to lose, I
    thought you could see that tonight. He really put us on his back and willed us to put us in a position to win that game.Ē

    But this doesn't address the non-call. Neither did the DBR front page, which basically said the same thing about the situation as Scheyer did.

    So I just wanted to open a specific thread and ask the question: Has there been any official comment by the ACC, by VaTech or by Duke, or by anybody else other than posters, sportwriters, bloggers and talking heads about the non-call? I've been searching but haven't found anything. To me, they need to admit it was a missed call. Because if they don't, the offender can just say, "I was celebrating, it was incidental!". It doesn't change the outcome of the game, obviously.

    No need to post that you also think it was a missed call. Now if you think it was the correct call, I'm sure people would like to hear the reasoning (other than, "the refs didn't call it"). But any official statements are what I'm looking for.

    9F
    I got nothing- but Flip was lucky. He could have suffered a serious injury- everything from breathing and swallowing difficulty to damage to blood vessels in that area. Yelling at an opponent after a dunk is a tech- hitting someone in the throat to celebrate a jump shot is somehow not as bad- just odd.

  3. #3
    It was a non-call that should have been called an F-1 and would have likely been called at any other point in the game. In this case, it likely determined the outcome of the game because Duke would have 2 shots and the ball. It should not matter what point of the game it occurred.

    The fact that the next night a F-1 was called on Syracuse at the same point of the game and also determined the outcome of the game makes the non-call in the Duke/Va Tech that much more egregious.

  4. #4
    Iím certainly not a student of the official NCAA rules concerning this but I feel like this about the call. If intent to foul is the consideration then I contend that any foul a player commits is subject to it. I suppose fouling to get the ball back after free throws is intentional. Otherwise, I say that there isnít an intent to foul on other plays. What about when a player steps on an opponents foot and trips? That is usually a foul on the defense but there certainly was no intent to foul. I think you have to call it regardless of the circumstances.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    But Duke gets all the calls!

  6. #6

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke102452 View Post
    It was a non-call that should have been called an F-1 and would have likely been called at any other point in the game. In this case, it likely determined the outcome of the game because Duke would have 2 shots and the ball. It should not matter what point of the game it occurred.

    The fact that the next night a F-1 was called on Syracuse at the same point of the game and also determined the outcome of the game makes the non-call in the Duke/Va Tech that much more egregious.
    Exactly my position as well.
    With regard to any official statement, with Duke evidently not making some kind of formal complaint, I guess that you will hear nada else about it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Timing is everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke102452 View Post
    It was a non-call that should have been called an F-1 and would have likely been called at any other point in the game. In this case, it likely determined the outcome of the game because Duke would have 2 shots and the ball. It should not matter what point of the game it occurred.

    The fact that the next night a F-1 was called on Syracuse at the same point of the game and also determined the outcome of the game makes the non-call in the Duke/Va Tech that much more egregious.
    Youíre right that it should have been called no matter when the foul occurred. But officials are human and hate to make critical calls in the final moments of games. Itís a well documented phenomenon.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Youíre right that it should have been called no matter when the foul occurred. But officials are human and hate to make critical calls in the final moments of games. Itís a well documented phenomenon.
    Unless, apparently, it benefits a team wearing light blue.

    I have not seen any official announcement on this, nor any news at all more recently that the day after it happened.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    northern Virginia
    Have there been any reports on any Flip having lingering affects of the punch? If swelling has persisted, seems that could affect his breathing during exertion, and a sore throat/neck could possibly make him less mobile.

    I have no clue whether or not he's less than 100%. Just a little worried.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Youíre right that it should have been called no matter when the foul occurred. But officials are human and hate to make critical calls in the final moments of games. Itís a well documented phenomenon.
    Doesn't not calling it determine the outcome of the game?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInKansas View Post
    Doesn't not calling it determine the outcome of the game?
    You hit it right on the head. Any foul called determines the outcome of the game, no matter when it occurs. ALL fouls should be called. The refs should ignore the clock when calling fouls. The clock is for determining the end of the half or game and other timing issues, not to determine when to call fouls.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    You hit it right on the head.
    Either a poor choice of words of genius.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Did our esteemed league officials ever comment on this, not that it makes any difference?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    You hit it right on the head. Any foul called determines the outcome of the game, no matter when it occurs. ALL fouls should be called. The refs should ignore the clock when calling fouls. The clock is for determining the end of the half or game and other timing issues, not to determine when to call fouls.
    I will just say that the one thing I've learned from my buddy that refs Division 1 games is that referees, for better or worse, ABSOLUTELY take into consideration the time, score, and identity of a potential fouler. I used to think that "oh so-and-so star never gets called" was just a combination of sour grapes and/or the fact that good players know how to not foul (the same reason Duke tends to shoot more foul shots than their opponent), but he set me straight on that. The first thing he does when he gets a game assignment is to get caught up on who the most important players are on each team, what their style of play is, etc.

    In this situation I texted him a clip of the punch and the first thing he asked was the time and score. I know we'd all like to think that the adjudication happens in a vacuum, but it absolutely doesn't. I should also point out that neither he, nor anyone else that wears stripes would ever admit this in a public forum but he swears that's the case.

    That said, he also agreed that it should have been F1.
    Trinity '09

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Summerville ,S.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazieDUMB View Post
    I will just say that the one thing I've learned from my buddy that refs Division 1 games is that referees, for better or worse, ABSOLUTELY take into consideration the time, score, and identity of a potential fouler. I used to think that "oh so-and-so star never gets called" was just a combination of sour grapes and/or the fact that good players know how to not foul (the same reason Duke tends to shoot more foul shots than their opponent), but he set me straight on that. The first thing he does when he gets a game assignment is to get caught up on who the most important players are on each team, what their style of play is, etc.

    In this situation I texted him a clip of the punch and the first thing he asked was the time and score. I know we'd all like to think that the adjudication happens in a vacuum, but it absolutely doesn't. I should also point out that neither he, nor anyone else that wears stripes would ever admit this in a public forum but he swears that's the case.

    That said, he also agreed that it should have been F1.
    Not just in div1 refs do that on every level in multiple sports.holding over looked strike zones get wider.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by wavedukefan70s View Post
    Not just in div1 refs do that on every level in multiple sports.holding over looked strike zones get wider.
    My theory is that as games get near the end, refs and umps get hungry and thirsty and will do what's necessary to end the proceedings...

  17. #17
    As we have been told many times by Jay Bilas : INTENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CALL- It's a Flagrant One.

    Duke was hosed and Scheyer could have made a big stink about it embarrassing the league and its officials.
    We all know some other ACC coaches would have.

    But Scheyer was a gentleman about it.

    Let's see if it gains us any calls down the stretch.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Atlanta 'burbs
    Quote Originally Posted by TywinBlue View Post
    As we have been told many times by Jay Bilas : INTENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CALL- It's a Flagrant One.

    Duke was hosed and Scheyer could have made a big stink about it embarrassing the league and its officials.
    We all know some other ACC coaches would have.

    But Scheyer was a gentleman about it.

    Let's see if it gains us any calls down the stretch.
    I would be surprised if Scheyer didnít make a phone call or two to the ACC office over it. While Iím not disappointed that he didnít get Tíed up during the game, considering time and score, I would be disappointed if he didnít make a stink behind the scenes.

    p.s. on another note, all coaches SHOULD be making a stink over the favorable treatment that the cheats are getting.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TywinBlue View Post
    As we have been told many times by Jay Bilas : INTENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CALL- It's a Flagrant One.

    Duke was hosed and Scheyer could have made a big stink about it embarrassing the league and its officials.
    We all know some other ACC coaches would have.

    But Scheyer was a gentleman about it.

    Let's see if it gains us any calls down the stretch.
    While I agree with your assessment, doesn't it stink that the correct call to protect the safety of our players depends on the perceived 'behavior' of the coach?

  20. #20

    Review of all/most fouls- new idea for You Tube series

    Is there a site on internet/YouTube that reviews NCAA Mens BB calls, either on the team, league or National Level?
    As an example, on the MLS site, pundits, ostensibly employees of MLS, review every Yellow/Red card of the weekend, so this is not unheard of. Video series Instant Replay, even sponsored by Cheez-It
    I have been watching BB since 1976, and each season I am more upset with the quality of officiating in a sport that depends so much on their calls. I could imagine a site that reviews changes each season in NCAA rules- as the cylinder call three years ago seems now to just be good defense. (One year its "space to play offense", the next year the emphasis changes to allow a defender in the jock strap of the offense.) Then such a site could review every foul, or just critical ones during each game of interest. There are so many angles with video operators that there must be different views of every play. We review the amateur players in highlight packages-why not the performance of the professional referees?
    My example is the "fake" flop call on Jeremy against VT, (only one view shown) or the block calls on Jeremy at the end of so many important games. If alternate angles were available later to confirm a foul, I would take each call more evenly, convinced that the referees did see something that I didn't. But I exploded when the flop was called, knowing then that we would not survive the referee crew, which, in the end, we didn't. Asking in order to lower by BP, Stroke risk and to advance understanding from my Clemson wife.

    BTW, the MLS site doesn't seem to castigate the refs, but there must be an implicit understanding that the league is sponsoring an objective review even if there is no direct accountability. FWIW, Here is the web address in the most recent of the series https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/no-p...d-to-austin-fc

    And can Teddy TV stop grabbing every players backside?!?

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