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Thread: Antoine Davis

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Exactly. MJ played 3 years.
    Well, you may know the old saying: the only guy who held MJ under 20 points a game was Dean Smith.

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    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGDukesky View Post
    On this we agree. As others have mentioned, pace of play is vastly different as well as the general quality of defense. If only Loyola Marymount had beaten UNLV in 1990…
    I've been thinking about that team, too. If LMU had won, and Westhead (the HC) could have kept up recruiting, it would have changed the game entirely. Perhaps some LMU player would have come along to pass Maravich much earlier. That offense was just so fun to watch. Outside of Duke games, the most impressive and astounding game I ever saw in the tournament was LMU's demolition of defending champion Michigan in 1990. Many may know they won 149-115. 149 points in a 40 minute college game? Some sides in NBA All-Star games, where they play no defense, have a 24 second clock and play for 48 minutes, didn't score 149 points. For those that haven't seen it, I recommend the 30 for 30 on this, it's called "The Guru of Go". For those that are younger, there is a tragic side to the story as well.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    Well, you may know the old saying: the only guy who held MJ under 20 points a game was Dean Smith.

    9F
    Yeah. I never thought that was a great take.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Yeah. I never thought that was a great take.
    I think there's some truth to it though. Smith (and Williams) both ran systems that emphasized the PG and the bigs and preached balance from the wings. So wings had a harder time putting up big points there compared with other places. So even though Jordan was clearly the best player on his team as a sophomore and junior (and arguably even as a freshman despite the presence of the junior Worthy), he still ceded a lot of shots to guys like Perkins, Daugherty, and Doherty.

    Had Jordan played on a team like, say, Clemson or Georgia Tech (two schools that looked a lot more like the LSU of Maravich's day), he probably puts up a lot more than the 20 ppg and 19.6 ppg he put up at UNC as a sophomore and a junior. Not 44 points per game obviously, as the average number of possessions per game was like 25 or 30 less in the early 80s than in the late 60s. But more than the 20 he maxed out at for UNC.

  5. #45
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    Don't look now... Mercy won, Davis scored 38 in the upset win over Purdue FW in the Horizon tourney. 14-27 from the field, 6-13 from 3. I watched a few minutes during the Duke-State halftime. He scored 7 points before the 1st TV timeout of the 2nd half (I had to get back to the Duke game, of course). He's playing with a face mask, so I guess Blakes has no excuse haha. Anyway, Davis only needs 26 in the next game to pass PP.

    I found the game on ESPN+ today. I don't know if the Mouse will show the next game on one of the main ESPN channels or not. The arena was so empty, you'd think more people would show up... except that I think most of the country does not know Maravich's record is now clearly in jeopardy.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  6. #46
    To be clear, I do think it's notable that Davis has a shot to break this record. It's just absolutely astounding the numbers of advantages it is requiring for him to have an opportunity to do so.

  7. #47
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    I learned another couple of things about Davis. He already has the career record for most 3-pointers (in January, he passed the previous record of 509 by Fletcher Magee of Wofford from 2014-19. This was the Wofford team that upset the CHeats!). Of course, Davis got the extra season. But he also could break a record that no one can argue about its worthiness, since it's a single season record. He has currently 155 3-pointers on the year, tied for fourth in NCAA history. This is only seven away from the single-season mark of 162 by Stephen Curry in 2007-08.

    Mercy's next game is Thursday in the Horizon tourney. They play the #1 seeded Youngstown State on Thursday at 8PM Eastern/5PM Pacific.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    To be clear, I do think it's notable that Davis has a shot to break this record. It's just absolutely astounding the numbers of advantages it is requiring for him to have an opportunity to do so.
    Eh, it’s not really appropriate to downgrade Davis’ accomplishment by talking about his advantages while ignoring Maravich’s advantages.

    Davis’ advantages are the extra games, a 3pt line, and the shot clock. Maravich’s advantages were facing much weaker defense and playing in an era when teams played 50% more possessions per game than they do today, and playing for a team that was willing to let him take 50% of its shots.

    The difference in pace of play makes the shot clock an irrelevant point (the shot clock isn’t giving Davis more possessions or anywhere near as many possessions per game as Maravich got), and it more than offsets the lack of a 3pt line. So it is really “just” the difference in games played that is Davis’ advantage, compared with Maravich playing against much weaker defense and being allowed to shoot 50% of his team’s shots.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Eh, it’s not really appropriate to downgrade Davis’ accomplishment by talking about his advantages while ignoring Maravich’s advantages.

    Davis’ advantages are the extra games, a 3pt line, and the shot clock. Maravich’s advantages were facing much weaker defense and playing in an era when teams played 50% more possessions per game than they do today, and playing for a team that was willing to let him take 50% of its shots.

    The difference in pace of play makes the shot clock an irrelevant point (the shot clock isn’t giving Davis more possessions or anywhere near as many possessions per game as Maravich got), and it more than offsets the lack of a 3pt line. So it is really “just” the difference in games played that is Davis’ advantage, compared with Maravich playing against much weaker defense and being allowed to shoot 50% of his team’s shots.
    "Pistol" shot 200 MORE shots in two fewer seasons. Wow.

    I'd say the "weaker defense" by era is negated by the difference in competition of the SEC and the Horizon.

    The three point line and more games are the biggest differentiators to me.

    You can point to Pete's usage rate, but you can't deny that of Maravich had FIVE seasons and a three point line his record would be even more astronomical.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    To be clear, I do think it's notable that Davis has a shot to break this record. It's just absolutely astounding the numbers of advantages it is requiring for him to have an opportunity to do so.
    Yes. He is absolutely prolific and also has had 2 extra years and a ton of games to do it. Good for the kid. Astounding record.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    "Pistol" shot 200 MORE shots in two fewer seasons. Wow.
    Exactly. Teams averaged well over 100 possessions per game in Maravich's era, compared with about 65 or 70 in today's game. And because Maravich played on an otherwise terrible team coached by his dad, he accounted for over 50 possessions per game. Think about that: he accounted for roughly 50% of his team's shots, but that total would account for more 70-75% of a team's shots today. It was just a totally different era of basketball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I'd say the "weaker defense" by era is negated by the difference in competition of the SEC and the Horizon.
    Possible, but I doubt it. "The SEC" was really just Kentucky and a bunch of other mediocre to bad teams back then. It was a mid-major conference in 1969 and 1970 (11th out of 19 conferences in conference strength). And we have to remember that the depth of quality of bball players is WAY higher now than it was in the late-60s, when fewer guys played bball and all of the good players went to the same schools. So the dropoff from good teams to mid-major teams back then is probably comparable to the dropoff from good teams to low-majors today.

    And when I say that defense is better these days, I don't just mean the players are better. I mean the gameplanning is better and the defensive alignment is better. Back then, teams mostly just ran up and down the court and took shots quickly, and rather than focusing on setting up a good defense, they mostly just chased the ball around. Because so few guys could dribble (really: many of the guards dribbled almost exclusively with one hand, and forwards/bigs rarely dribbled at all) the defenses simply didn't need to be as sophisticated. So Maravich got a lot of fast break shot attempts and a lot of uncontested perimeter shots that simply aren't available in today's game, even at the low major level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    The three point line and more games are the biggest differentiators to me.
    I disagree. I think the vast disparity in possessions per game is a way bigger factor than the lack of a 3 point line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    You can point to Pete's usage rate, but you can't deny that of Maravich had FIVE seasons and a three point line his record would be even more astronomical.
    Of course. But that's because he got to take a bazillion shots thanks to an era of basketball that doesn't exist anymore. It's sort of like comparing anyone to Cy Young. Cy Young's stats look amazing from the prism of today's game. But back in the dead ball era pitchers could get 50 starts per season and almost always pitched the whole game. So it wasn't at all uncommon for a guy to get 35 wins per season back then. Just like it wasn't at all uncommon for a guy to average 35+ ppg back then.

    That's not at all meant to denigrate Maravich, who was of course a special talent. But his stats were heavily inflated by the era in which he played, making it unfair to compare with today's players.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Exactly. Teams averaged well over 100 possessions per game in Maravich's era, compared with about 65 or 70 in today's game. And because Maravich played on an otherwise terrible team coached by his dad, he accounted for over 50 possessions per game. Think about that: he accounted for roughly 50% of his team's shots, but that total would account for more 70-75% of a team's shots today. It was just a totally different era of basketball.



    Possible, but I doubt it. "The SEC" was really just Kentucky and a bunch of other mediocre to bad teams back then. It was a mid-major conference in 1969 and 1970 (11th out of 19 conferences in conference strength). And we have to remember that the depth of quality of bball players is WAY higher now than it was in the late-60s, when fewer guys played bball and all of the good players went to the same schools. So the dropoff from good teams to mid-major teams back then is probably comparable to the dropoff from good teams to low-majors today.

    And when I say that defense is better these days, I don't just mean the players are better. I mean the gameplanning is better and the defensive alignment is better. Back then, teams mostly just ran up and down the court and took shots quickly, and rather than focusing on setting up a good defense, they mostly just chased the ball around. Because so few guys could dribble (really: many of the guards dribbled almost exclusively with one hand, and forwards/bigs rarely dribbled at all) the defenses simply didn't need to be as sophisticated. So Maravich got a lot of fast break shot attempts and a lot of uncontested perimeter shots that simply aren't available in today's game, even at the low major level.



    I disagree. I think the vast disparity in possessions per game is a way bigger factor than the lack of a 3 point line.



    Of course. But that's because he got to take a bazillion shots thanks to an era of basketball that doesn't exist anymore. It's sort of like comparing anyone to Cy Young. Cy Young's stats look amazing from the prism of today's game. But back in the dead ball era pitchers could get 50 starts per season and almost always pitched the whole game. So it wasn't at all uncommon for a guy to get 35 wins per season back then. Just like it wasn't at all uncommon for a guy to average 35+ ppg back then.

    That's not at all meant to denigrate Maravich, who was of course a special talent. But his stats were heavily inflated by the era in which he played, making it unfair to compare with today's players.
    I hear all your arguments. But to me, the "usage rate" as an advantage is kind of a wash. You can say "well, he shot the ball on almost every possession." But... Isn't that very difficult to do when the defense also knows you shoot the ball on nearly every possession?

    Regardless, Pete Maravich is... one of a kind.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I hear all your arguments. But to me, the "usage rate" as an advantage is kind of a wash. You can say "well, he shot the ball on almost every possession." But... Isn't that very difficult to do when the defense also knows you shoot the ball on nearly every possession?

    Regardless, Pete Maravich is... one of a kind.
    Usage rate is a big advantage when you only shoot 44%. Like I mentioned earlier, Alcindor shot almost 64% for his career and no realistic defense was going to significantly reduce that. Maravich is not the greatest scorer in NCAA history to me because he just wasn’t that efficient compared to some other greats. How many points could David Thompson have scored if he shot that much (he averaged almost 27 points on half the shots at 55% shooting)?

    It is an accomplishment but just needs more context…

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I hear all your arguments. But to me, the "usage rate" as an advantage is kind of a wash. You can say "well, he shot the ball on almost every possession." But... Isn't that very difficult to do when the defense also knows you shoot the ball on nearly every possession?
    In today's game? Absolutely. In the late-60s? Not really. Because defense was so much less sophisticated back then. In part because offense was so much less sophisticated back then. Teams ran it up the court on offense, which means they weren't focused on getting back and preventing the opponent from running down the court on defense. So combine that with half court defense not being very advanced and they weren't really able to prevent a guy from taking a lot of shots.

    That's why I brought up the Cy Young reference. It's just impossible to compare given the totally different eras of basketball. Even a player like Maravich wouldn't have been able to take 50+% of his team's possessions in today's game and be anywhere near as efficient as he was (and he wasn't very efficient anyway). Heck, Antoine Davis is practically a one-man show for Detroit, and he's only using 37% of his team's possessions.

    And it isn't like Maravich was considered so much better than his peers back then. Despite being the scoring champ all 3 years, he was only the #3 pick in the NBA draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Regardless, Pete Maravich is... one of a kind.
    Agreed. The perfect combination of a really talented player playing in an era when a really talented player, on the right team, could put up a shot volume that would be obscene by the standards of today's game.

    But want to know what's crazy? There was a guy who averaged 40 ppg as a sophomore in the SEC the year after Maravich went to the NBA. Johnny Neumann did it, and did so while using 4 fewer FGA and 3 fewer FTA per game than Maravich did in averaging 44.2 ppg. But Neumann filed for hardship and went to the ABA after that sophomore year. It would have been really interesting to see what he would have done had he stayed 3 years in college. Now, Neumann wasn't as gifted a player as Maravich, but it sort of illustrates the point that the era was just totally different back then.

  15. #55
    Detroit Mercy plays Youngstown St at 8 PM on Thursday in the Horizon League Championship Quarterfinal.

    Antoine Davis just needs 29 points to pass Pistol Pete Maravich for the Division 1 scoring record and 8 3 pointers to break Steph Curry's 3 point record at Davidson in 2008.

    History is literally on the line which is simply incredible. Go get 'em young man, records are meant to be broken!!!

    I personally am hoping that Detroit Mercy wins the Horizon League Championship so we can see Davis play in the NCAAT.

    Even if they lose, can we petition the committee to make sure Detroit Mercy still gets in? We shouldn't be denied the opportunity to see perhaps the most prolific scorer in college basketball history play on the brightest stage.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeTrinity11 View Post
    Even if they lose, can we petition the committee to make sure Detroit Mercy still gets in? We shouldn't be denied the opportunity to see perhaps the most prolific scorer in college basketball history play on the brightest stage.
    I have a team I can think of whose place I would sacrifice for Detroit.

    We could call it the Mercy rule.

  17. #57
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    If there had been three-pointers, Maravich's record would have been unapproachable.

    I, for one, don't think Davis, playing at Detroit Mercy, is in any way comparable to Pistol Pete.

    How many points would Davis have scored in the SEC?

    As for Lew Alcindor's make percentage versus Pete's, of course Alcindor's was much higher. He was shooting most of his shots within 10 feet of the basket!

    Sadly, I am old enough to have watched Maravich play. He was a wizard, and it wasn't just shooting. His dribbling and passing were phenomenal, too. Every kid who played hoops back in the day knew who he was and idolized him, to a certain extent. Players even started wearing floppy socks so they could be like Pete.

    Hardly anybody even knows who Antoine Davis is.


    I mean, I read an article about him and watched a video of him, as well. He seems like a really great person and is a hell of a basketball player; I wish him well. But even if he breaks the scoring record, he is no Pistol Pete.

    I have to reiterate, though, that I really like what I read and saw from him, in every way. One of the things that impressed me most was that he said he would gladly give up the scoring record if his team could play in the NCAA tournament. He didn't seem conceited or egotistical at all.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    There was a guy who averaged 40 ppg as a sophomore in the SEC the year after Maravich went to the NBA. Johnny Neumann did it, and did so while using 4 fewer FGA and 3 fewer FTA per game than Maravich did in averaging 44.2 ppg.
    Not really sure who this guy is you’re talking about, but wasn’t he on Seinfeld?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    If there had been three-pointers, Maravich's record would have been unapproachable.

    I, for one, don't think Davis, playing at Detroit Mercy, is in any way comparable to Pistol Pete.

    How many points would Davis have scored in the SEC?

    As for Lew Alcindor's make percentage versus Pete's, of course Alcindor's was much higher. He was shooting most of his shots within 10 feet of the basket!

    Sadly, I am old enough to have watched Maravich play. He was a wizard, and it wasn't just shooting. His dribbling and passing were phenomenal, too. Every kid who played hoops back in the day knew who he was and idolized him, to a certain extent. Players even started wearing floppy socks so they could be like Pete.

    Hardly anybody even knows who Antoine Davis is.


    I mean, I read an article about him and watched a video of him, as well. He seems like a really great person and is a hell of a basketball player; I wish him well. But even if he breaks the scoring record, he is no Pistol Pete.

    I have to reiterate, though, that I really like what I read and saw from him, in every way. One of the things that impressed me most was that he said he would gladly give up the scoring record if his team could play in the NCAA tournament. He didn't seem conceited or egotistical at all.
    I don't think anyone is trying to compare Davis to PP. I've not seen a single article or post anywhere saying that Davis is "better" or that PP is somehow worse if Davis passes him. What is absolutely true is that PP's points record will likely be passed tonight. Records are made to be broken, and asterisks are silly. PP will always be PP, a legend, a HOFer, a magician. But just like Kevin Bradshaw, David will likely have a record that is all his and his alone. He, his family and Detroit Mercy should be proud of it, and I think he should be very heartily congratulated on it. And I am definitely rooting for Mercy as I also want to see him in the tourney.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  20. #60
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    Old guy here. I watched Pistol Pete (when I could on a black and white t.v.). He was spectacular. I don't want anyone to break his record.

    Having said that, the SEC was pretty darn white in those days. Pete didn't compete against a lot of great, black athletes. It would be interesting to see how a young Pistol Pete would compete in today's college basketball. I think he would still be great but would not have the same stats he did in his day at LSU.

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