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Thread: Antoine Davis

  1. #61
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    I don't think anyone is trying to compare Davis to PP. I've not seen a single article or post anywhere saying that Davis is "better" or that PP is somehow worse if Davis passes him. What is absolutely true is that PP's points record will likely be passed tonight. Records are made to be broken, and asterisks are silly. PP will always be PP, a legend, a HOFer, a magician. But just like Kevin Bradshaw, David will likely have a record that is all his and his alone. He, his family and Detroit Mercy should be proud of it, and I think he should be very heartily congratulated on it. And I am definitely rooting for Mercy as I also want to see him in the tourney.

    9F
    Agreed. Nobody thinks Davis is anywhere near as good as Maravich. Maravich was an NBA star (3rd pick in his draft, 5-time All Star) whereas Davis will not likely even sniff the NBA. Literally nobody is making the argument that Davis is better than, or anything close to, Maravich as a talent.

    The general point that I'm trying to make is that - if Maravich was playing as a 19-21 year old today - he himself wouldn't score 3,667 points in 3 years. Because the era is so totally different. Teams play like 35-40 fewer possessions per game, and they actually play half-court defense (which makes scoring more difficult and partly why there are so many fewer possessions). And teams are better equipped to limit a single player in ways that just weren't in practice 55 years ago: defense is allowed way more contact, teams play smarter offense, which prevents a lot of the fast breaking that went on back then, and teams gameplan and are coached much better now. There is also way more depth of talent and way more opportunity balance, there is less of an opportunity for a single player to totally dominate his team's possessions on a major conference team. It's just night and day in terms of what basketball looks like now compared with back then.

    Just factoring in the differences in pace of play would knock Maravich's 44 ppg down to ~29-30 ppg. And then you factor in tougher defense (WAY fewer fast breaks), more talent balance (unless Maravich went to play for a low-major school), and Maravich might have averaged 25 ppg as a freshman in today's game. And that's even accounting for the lack of a 3pt line.

    Maravich was a great player, absolutely no question. He was a 5-time NBA All Star and Hall of Famer. But his 44 ppg average was very much a product of circumstance: playing on a terrible team with his dad as coach and in an era when teams took tons and tons of shots.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post

    The general point that I'm trying to make is that - if Maravich was playing as a 19-21 year old today - he himself wouldn't score 3,667 points in 3 years. Because the era is so totally different.
    I mean, isn't this a Mighty Mouse v Superman question? Doesn't it really just showcase the limitations of comparing ONE number across generations?

    You could probably make a similarly compelling argument about how Kareem's record (with one three point shot in his career) is more impressive than Lebron's point total.

    It's folly to even attempt to make these cross-generational comparisons. But, it's a number. A single statistic. A player is likely to surpass Pistol Pete's astonishing statistic.

    To me it underlines the ridiculousness of reducing sports to statistics.

  3. #63
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Doesn't it really just showcase the limitations of comparing ONE number across generations?
    That is exactly my point. It isn't reasonable to compare across eras. But by marveling at Pete’s number and poo-pooing Davis’ accomplishment, you are inherently doing that invalid comparison, looking at Maravich’s stats through the lens of today’s game. And (in my opinion) worse, noting the advantages Davis has (and incorrectly in one case because as discussed the shot clock isn’t actually an advantage given the pace of play difference) while ignoring the advantages Maravich had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    It's folly to even attempt to make these cross-generational comparisons. But, it's a number. A single statistic. A player is likely to surpass Pistol Pete's astonishing statistic.
    Probably not. But sort of like Cy Young’s career win total (he only led the league in wins 5 times in his career), I think the point is probably that it really shouldn’t be viewed as otherworldly astonishing. Because it was the product of a very specific set of circumstances that are totally irrelevant to today’s sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    To me it underlines the ridiculousness of reducing sports to statistics.
    I agree. They are all subject to context. And yet, you were quick in this thread to denigrate Davis’ accomplishment by making comparisons to Maravich.

  4. #64
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    NC
    To put a cap on things, looks like Davis will wind up one 3 short of the mark. Not for lack of trying, he took a lot of shots late. But had a really bad night from the field.

  5. #65
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    Apr 2008
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    Santa Clara, CA
    I watched part of the game. At first, they were using him more as a decoy as other players were contributing. Mercy led at halftime and even had about a 8 point lead in the 2nd half. But Youngstown State tied it up at about 64 and Mercy never could get the lead back, and they lost 71-66.. Compared to what I briefly saw last game, his shot was not on, plus he was getting hounded when the chips were down. He is 3 short of PP.

    However, once again times change...

    Detroit Mercy could still play in the CBI, which does *not* have a win percentage criteria to participate, as long as they are invited and willing to pay a $50,000 entry fee. If they go, Davis' points would count toward the record.

    But...

    - There was no CBI back in the old days!
    - No way a team with a losing record got to play in the post season back when even really good teams didn't get to play!
    - This is like paying for the record!
    - Get off my lawn, kid!

    Change happens. I feel one either embraces it, or lives in the past. I have no rose-colored glasses, so I think it would be money well spent if Mercy went. The CBI probably knows people would watch their tourney more if Mercy went. Heck, I'd contribute to a GoFundMe if they needed it!

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I agree. They are all subject to context. And yet, you were quick in this thread to denigrate Davis’ accomplishment by making comparisons to Maravich.
    Yet, yes I was. I think "it's folly to reduce sports to a single statistic" means has a very different takeaway lesson for me and for you.

    Having said all of that, I would absolutely rather have Pete on my team than Mr. Davis.

  7. #67
    Hoo boy. Could you imagine coming up 3 points short or a college scoring record, with your whole life ahead of you?

    How can you get *that* close to such a big number and fall short?

  8. #68
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Having said all of that, I would absolutely rather have Pete on my team than Mr. Davis.
    As would literally everyone in this discussion.

  9. #69
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    Feb 2007
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    DC Area
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    As would literally everyone in this discussion.
    Not me. Dead people get no buckets!

  10. #70
    Somehow I missed the fact that Antoine's coach is his dad, Mike Davis. Yes, that Mike Davis. And yes, Boozer was fouled.

  11. #71
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    Oct 2007
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    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevil2K View Post
    Somehow I missed the fact that Antoine's coach is his dad, Mike Davis. Yes, that Mike Davis. And yes, Boozer was fouled.
    I was actually going to post this factoid this morning, as I saw Mike Davis on a Zoom call on SportsCenter last night. Maybe that is when you realized it as well.

    Was just checking through the thread to see if Mike Davis's name had popped up, but couldn't find it, then you beat me to it.

    Antoine would have been about 3 1/2 years old at the time of the Duke IU game you mentioned. That was, of course, the pinnacle of Mike Davis's career, and it has been downhill since.
    Hard at work making beautiful things.

  12. #72
    Best scoring players in college history are Pistol Pete and JJ Redick. Don't care about other stats.

  13. #73
    It's possible that Detroit gets invited to the CBI or something if they're looking for something that might increase ratings. At 13-19, they don't deserve it, but the CBI tournament doesn't have any requirements about selecting teams over a certain record or anything.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    It's possible that Detroit gets invited to the CBI or something if they're looking for something that might increase ratings. At 13-19, they don't deserve it, but the CBI tournament doesn't have any requirements about selecting teams over a certain record or anything.
    Further devaluing the record...

  15. #75
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    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    Best scoring players in college history are Pistol Pete and JJ Redick. Don't care about other stats.
    Of players with repeat initials in their names?

    JJ isn’t the best scorer in Duke history unless you only care about total points scored.

    Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson both averaged over 30 PPG without the 3-point shot. JJ was great his senior year but I wouldn’t even include him in the conversation for NCAA history…

  16. #76
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    Apr 2010
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    Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I was actually going to post this factoid this morning, as I saw Mike Davis on a Zoom call on SportsCenter last night. Maybe that is when you realized it as well.

    Was just checking through the thread to see if Mike Davis's name had popped up, but couldn't find it, then you beat me to it.

    Antoine would have been about 3 1/2 years old at the time of the Duke IU game you mentioned. That was, of course, the pinnacle of Mike Davis's career, and it has been downhill since.
    That may have been the pinnacle, but he hasn't ben wholly unsuccessful. He had some strong teams at UAB and routinely qualified for the tournament as the Texas Southern coach.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Not me. Dead people get no buckets!
    More shots for me!

  18. #78
    I'm just happy that the record was not broken. I want at least one nice memory from my childhood/adulthood to stay in tact. Pistol Pete being the greatest scorer in NCAA history is one of those memories.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I was actually going to post this factoid this morning, as I saw Mike Davis on a Zoom call on SportsCenter last night. Maybe that is when you realized it as well.
    Nope, but ESPN just the same: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...aravich-record

  20. #80
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    Feb 2007
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    Richmond, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Hoo boy. Could you imagine coming up 3 points short or a college scoring record, with your whole life ahead of you?

    How can you get *that* close to such a big number and fall short?
    It's not like he did not have the opportunity...

    He shot a "Caleb Love-esque"...7-26 and 4-16 from three.

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