Antoine Davis

[Hartford Dukie]

Just a word about Pistol Pete as a person. I don't know what he was like in college and beyond, but in high school - where he was a star - he was a good guy, very likeable, and not absurdly full of himself. He was a year behind me at Raleigh Broughton (when his father coached at State) and I knew him a bit. Always friendly, always greeted you, always willing to talk.

[kako]

38.1 Shots Per Game. To put that in context, this season our starting lineup of Flip, Roach, Mitchell, Proctor, and Lively takes an average of 41.79 shots per game.

Take out Lively (3.53 shots/game), and Maravich shoots almost exactly the same amount as the rest of our starters combined.

Yup, amazing huh? One must remember that when PP played, people just ran up and down the court and shot quickly. Teams routinely scored in the 80s and 90s without the 3-pointer. If you have seen the movie "Hoosiers", that's why Gene Hackman had to stress passing 3 times before shooting so they could work for the best shot and not just chuck it up. These days if a team comes down and doesn't pass 3 times before taking a shot, they get branded being too quick on the trigger. Also, it's why El Deano's 4 corners offense was so novel... and hated.

9F

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

They aren’t. But then again, one reason Maravich’s record has held up is because of the early entry movements. Can you imagine how many points Kobe, KD, Kyrie, LBJ would have scored in three years of college ball?

I mean, we can imagine lots of things. But the reality is that Maravich's record is absolutely insane. It would be an astonishing stretch for the players you listed to beat his scoring record in a comparable number of games.

[lotusland]

Meh, his usage was ridiculous as his dad just told the team to let him shoot all the time. Great talent but 38 FGA (plus 14 FTA) to me makes his numbers less impressive. He was ahead of his time in offensive creativity and was a very good shooter. Just think his PPG need two asterisks- positive(no 3-point shot) and negative (ridiculous volume)…

I’m a big Pistol fan since I found a book about him in my grammar school library. I used to pretend to be the Pistol in my driveway. The guy was an objectively great offensive player. LSU’s record with Pete was considerably better than the years before he arrived. I believe they actually made the tournament one year which was much harder then and LSU had not sniffed the tournament in some time prior (which is why they hired an ACC assistant coach as their HC). Pistol was a fantastic passer and those passes were generally to his teammates. So yeah Pete brought the ball up the court and initiated the offense on just about every possession. Any other offense would have been foolish for those LSU teams. So let’s not poo poo the accomplishments of the greatest #23 in NCAA history!

[cato]

I mean, we can imagine lots of things. But the reality is that Maravich's record is absolutely insane. It would be an astonishing stretch for the players you listed to beat his scoring record in a comparable number of games.

What do you think Kobe would have scored in the NCAAs playing for, say, Duke under Coach K? It is hard to imagine because Kobe was simply too good to play in the NCAA, but I ask you to imagine it all the same.

[CDu]

I mean, we can imagine lots of things. But the reality is that Maravich's record is absolutely insane. It would be an astonishing stretch for the players you listed to beat his scoring record in a comparable number of games.

Primarily because the era of basketball makes it so much harder to do it now. Defenses are MUCH better, and offenses take much better care of the ball. And as a result, teams take way fewer shots and are forced to distribute their shots with more balance.

Maravich took about half of his teams’ shots. That meant about 38 FGA and 14 FTA per game. He averaged 44 points per game. In today’s game, it would be virtually impossible for a player in a reasonable conference to take half his team’s shots. And even if he did, that would amount to about 7 fewer FGA and 6 fewer FTA per game than Maravich took simply due to differences in pace of play between the two eras.

That is not to say that Maravich wasn’t amazing. It is just that his stats are heavily inflated by virtue to era differences combined with the fact that he was being showcased playing for his dad on a team that had no bball history (so they were happy to have the show).

[brevity]

Meh, his usage was ridiculous as his dad just told the team to let him shoot all the time.

For a second there I thought you were talking about Antoine Davis.

It's interesting that Antoine Davis, coached by his father, is pursuing a record set by Pete Maravich, coached by his father. Either way they'll be the top 2 career scorers in Division I men's basketball, with Doug McDermott (coached by his father) at #7.

[sagegrouse]

I don't believe it's taking anything away from Maravich if Davis passes his point total. There's only one Pistol Pete, just like there's only one Babe Ruth. Ruth had his HR records broken by lesser players, and nobody thinks worse of him now. A number's a number, and Davis (who is listed as 6-1, 165) getting so many points, 5th year, treys or not, is pretty cool. And almost any record in any sport out there will eventually be broken, so this will just raise the bar for somebody else to pass someday (maybe not 511 wins in baseball, but that's for another thread).

9F

Are you saying Pete Maravich is to basketball as Babe Ruth is to baseball? If so, there is not enough holy water in the universe to wash the sins off your soul.😉

[kako]

Are you saying Pete Maravich is to basketball as Babe Ruth is to baseball? If so, there is not enough holy water in the universe to wash the sins off your soul.😉

No, that's not what I meant. I was simply focusing on records, using a well-known one that was broken. Ruth's 714 was a sacred number for decades, then Maris came along, then McGuire, then Bonds. Ruth still is Ruth, probably the greatest baseball player of all time. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have the record anymore. Just like with Gordie Howe's goal scoring record being broken by Gretzky, Gordie Howe is still a hockey immortal. If his record is broken, PP will still be PP, Hall of Famer, amazing player, still will hold the ppg average record. It won't matter if the total points record is not his anymore.

9F

[DukieInBrasil]

No, that's not what I meant. I was simply focusing on records, using a well-known one that was broken. Ruth's 714 was a sacred number for decades, then Maris came along, then McGuire, then Bonds. Ruth still is Ruth, probably the greatest baseball player of all time. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have the record anymore. Just like with Gordie Howe's goal scoring record being broken by Gretzky, Gordie Howe is still a hockey immortal. If his record is broken, PP will still be PP, Hall of Famer, amazing player, still will hold the ppg average record. It won't matter if the total points record is not his anymore.

9F

another thing that's impressive about Ruth is the way in which he changed the game. Prior to him the career HR record was like 120, and the single season record before he began re-setting that record regularly was 27, although it's hard to know what qualified as "Major Leagues" in the 1800s. Nobody in the 1900s was regularly hitting 20 HRs per year prior to Ruth, who then began hitting 50+ HRs regularly. It helps that innards of the baseball changed from the earlier days to Ruth's day, but still Ruth took advantage. In a similar vein, had the 3pt shot existed in Maravich's day i feel comfortable in saying that his NCAA record would be unapproachable, and that he would probably hold the NBA scoring record too, quite comfortably.

[DukieInBrasil]

Just a word about Pistol Pete as a person. I don't know what he was like in college and beyond, but in high school - where he was a star - he was a good guy, very likeable, and not absurdly full of himself. He was a year behind me at Raleigh Broughton (when his father coached at State) and I knew him a bit. Always friendly, always greeted you, always willing to talk.

My dad also went to HS with Maravich, and was 1 or 2 years behind him. Didn't Broughton have 2 campuses then, or some weird design? Anyway, i don't remember my dad saying much about Pete on a personal level.

[JasonEvans]

had the 3pt shot existed in Maravich's day i feel comfortable in saying that his NCAA record would be unapproachable, and that he would probably hold the NBA scoring record too, quite comfortably.

Ummm, no.

If every single basket Maravich made in his NBA career was a 3-pointer rather than a 2... every single basket... he would slide in somewhere between Clyde Drrexler (#34 on the career scoring list) and Gary Payton (#35).

Piston Pete's career ended after just ten years in the league due to persistent knee problems. He did get to play one year with the 3-point line. He went 10-15 from deep, which is kinda sick.

[DukieInBrasil]

Ummm, no.

If every single basket Maravich made in his NBA career was a 3-pointer rather than a 2... every single basket... he would slide in somewhere between Clyde Drrexler (#34 on the career scoring list) and Gary Payton (#35).

Piston Pete's career ended after just ten years in the league due to persistent knee problems. He did get to play one year with the 3-point line. He went 10-15 from deep, which is kinda sick.

ahh, well, those pesky injuries. I never got to see the Pistol play in person or on tv, i'm sure it would have been incredible.

[ClemmonsDevil]

For a second there I thought you were talking about Antoine Davis.

It's interesting that Antoine Davis, coached by his father, is pursuing a record set by Pete Maravich, coached by his father. Either way they'll be the top 2 career scorers in Division I men's basketball, with Doug McDermott (coached by his father) at #7.

Coaches' kids. Is there anything they can't do? Kidding. I'm a major disappointment.

[ClemmonsDevil]

I mean, we can imagine lots of things. But the reality is that Maravich's record is absolutely insane. It would be an astonishing stretch for the players you listed to beat his scoring record in a comparable number of games.

Exactly. MJ played 3 years.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Coaches' kids. Is there anything they can't do? Kidding. I'm a major disappointment.

We know.

[AGDukesky]

I mean, we can imagine lots of things. But the reality is that Maravich's record is absolutely insane. It would be an astonishing stretch for the players you listed to beat his scoring record in a comparable number of games.

I mean I guess the number of shots he took was insane. Shooting under 44% for his career is hardly insane. Imagine if Lew Alcindor shot 38 times instead of the 17 he averaged for his career (26.4 PPG). Heck at the 64% FG% he averaged over his career (and assuming he only makes 5 FTs like he did) he would only need to take 32 FGA/game to average 45.

The record is untouchable because no one has or will ever have that usage. Maravich was a great player but I’m just not that impressed by how he got the record.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I mean I guess the number of shots he took was insane. Shooting under 44% for his career is hardly insane. Imagine if Lew Alcindor shot 38 times instead of the 17 he averaged for his career (26.4 PPG). Heck at the 64% FG% he averaged over his career (and assuming he only makes 5 FTs like he did) he would only need to take 32 FGA/game to average 45.

The record is untouchable because no one has or will ever had that usage. Maravich was a great player but I’m just not that impressed by how he got the record.

I mean, LSU went 19-12 his senior year. They didn't exist just to get Pete shots.

I agree that it's a lot of shots to take, but I don't see any way that a record that was set in 83 games being broken in 142 games (and counting) while simultaneously having an option for one shot being worth 3 points and playing in the Horizon Conference is in any way remarkable.

[Bluedog]

I mean I guess the number of shots he took was insane. Shooting under 44% for his career is hardly insane. Imagine if Lew Alcindor shot 38 times instead of the 17 he averaged for his career (26.4 PPG). Heck at the 64% FG% he averaged over his career (and assuming he only makes 5 FTs like he did) he would only need to take 32 FGA/game to average 45.

The record is untouchable because no one has or will ever have that usage. Maravich was a great player but I’m just not that impressed by how he got the record.

Well, it goes both ways. His usage WAS insane, but also because of that, it probably dinged his FG% because teams KNEW he was taking a shot every time. You can be more selective with a lower usage rate. Of course, team defenses then weren't like they are today as has been discussed.

[AGDukesky]

I mean, LSU went 19-12 his senior year. They didn't exist just to get Pete shots.

I agree that it's a lot of shots to take, but I don't see any way that a record that was set in 83 games being broken in 142 games (and counting) while simultaneously having an option for one shot being worth 3 points and playing in the Horizon Conference is in any way remarkable.

On this we agree. As others have mentioned, pace of play is vastly different as well as the general quality of defense. If only Loyola Marymount had beaten UNLV in 1990…