The Elephant in the Room: Lets talk about Jon Scheyer

[AustinDevil]

I think this goes to the heart of what we're all feeling... we placed a lot more weight on this season after we lost to UNC in the Final Four. I'd argue that even in a slightly less fun Duke Multiverse, where ANYTHING happens besides UNC beating us in the Final Four, and we're feeling very differently about this season.

I do think that the loss to UNC in Cameron last year and the loss to UNC in the Final Four last year are weighing on many folks subconsciously. I don't think that's the entirely (or even the major factor) of why those who are upset are upset. I suspect that there is a large contingent that would be similarly upset regardless of last year's results.

Speaking only for myself, I worried that Scheyer was too green to be handed the reins, and I hope but am not certain that he might find the right buttons to push to motivate this team and give them confidence despite the mediocre-to-bad-by-Duke-standards season thus far. If Duke loses its lustre--something that cannot happen overnight or in one season but can happen quicker than most people think--then the future is very dark. But in no universe should he be fired anywhere close to now, of course.

And if I'm mad about anything from the two late-season losses to Carolina last year, it is limited to the idiotic idea to bring back a bunch of former players and have them stand there in matching t-shirts. They might as well have held a "IF YOU HEELS NEED ANY EXTRA MOTIVATION PLEASE JUST THINK ABOUT HOW FUN IT WOULD BE TO HAVE US ALL WITNESS YOUR WIN TONIGHT" sign.

[AustinDevil]

Probably why it's called "Duke Basketball Report" and not "Duke Sports Report". I'd assume the author knows a lot more about bball than football. But you know what they say about assuming...

This has been covered *lots* of times, but "DBR" is a legacy name kept for whatever cache it had when SBN took over. The brief of this site is indeed to cover all Duke sports.

[Southgate0809]

Speaking only for myself, I worried that Scheyer was too green to be handed the reins, and I hope but am not certain that he might find the right buttons to push to motivate this team and give them confidence despite the mediocre-to-bad-by-Duke-standards season thus far. If Duke loses its lustre--something that cannot happen overnight or in one season but can happen quicker than most people think--then the future is very dark. But in no universe should he be fired anywhere close to now, of course.

And if I'm mad about anything from the two late-season losses to Carolina last year, it is limited to the idiotic idea to bring back a bunch of former players and have them stand there in matching t-shirts. They might as well have held a "IF YOU HEELS NEED ANY EXTRA MOTIVATION PLEASE JUST THINK ABOUT HOW FUN IT WOULD BE TO HAVE US ALL WITNESS YOUR WIN TONIGHT" sign.

Too green you say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMt7C3COiVM

Hopefully, it won't impair Scheyer's ability to interview witnesses effectively. Even though Coach K is retired, he can be the Kojak-type mentor who's seen everything.

[Music man55]

Speaking only for myself, I worried that Scheyer was too green to be handed the reins, and I hope but am not certain that he might find the right buttons to push to motivate this team and give them confidence despite the mediocre-to-bad-by-Duke-standards season thus far. If Duke loses its lustre--something that cannot happen overnight or in one season but can happen quicker than most people think--then the future is very dark. But in no universe should he be fired anywhere close to now, of course.

And if I'm mad about anything from the two late-season losses to Carolina last year, it is limited to the idiotic idea to bring back a bunch of former players and have them stand there in matching t-shirts. They might as well have held a "IF YOU HEELS NEED ANY EXTRA MOTIVATION PLEASE JUST THINK ABOUT HOW FUN IT WOULD BE TO HAVE US ALL WITNESS YOUR WIN TONIGHT" sign.

Oh my goodness! Brings back memories of before the “ reunion” game thinking, if I were a Tar Heel player, I would not need anymore motivation than that.

[Indoor66]

I know that feelings about the front page articles are, perhaps generously, mixed around here (except for mine, which I KNOW you all read religiously and love, haha), but I think JD's latest really deserves a read by everyone in this thread.

Truth be told, I was working on putting some similar (albeit less direct) thoughts together in my head, but JD beat me to it. Right now it feels like we aren't judging this team, and Coach Scheyer's first season, on its own merits and considering its unique circumstances; instead, we're judging them based on the literally historic level of success that Coach K had. Now, having higher standards than the norm is of course warranted, but expecting a seamless transition was always a pipe dream.

In the offseason, many of the elder statesmen and most respected posters on this board were inconspicuously trying to warn everyone: this team had a historically low amount of returning contributions, not to mention that first year coaches historically underperform. Add in offseason injuries to two of our projected best three players, and you have a lot of adversity for a team to overcome.

I'll readily admit that I didn't listen to those warnings as well as I should. I drank the Kool-Aid: I saw the potential for this freshman class, for the versatility and depth that Jon found in the portal, and for Jeremy's junior explosion. I'll also admit to something I think may have skewed my expectations that really shouldn't: I was still sore after UNC's run last year. We all saw Hubert Davis reach the title game in his first season, and I think I unconsciously hoped that Scheyer could somehow negate the pain of that Final Four loss by outdoing Davis in his own first season.

Now we're well over halfway through the year, and we have to readjust our expectations. This team has faced an unusual amount of adversity with the ongoing injuries and inability to find a groove because of them. With all that considered, if Scheyer truly was "in over his head," this team could've folded a half-dozen different times. Instead, we're taking two steps forward and one step back in a regular fashion. Those backward steps are insanely frustrating, but we need to stop letting them overshadow the two steps forward. Let this team run its own race: if we do, they could end up being pretty good come March, even if they aren't the juggernaut, Final Four favorite that we're used to.

Let's judge Jon on his own merits, and this team on its own merits, rather than by comparison. I think that will help us all.

I seem to recall that some guy that used to be involved in Duke Basketball often talked about everyone running their own race, or something like that. IMO we need a little more gentleness around this board

[gep]

You're 100% right on all counts. Regarding the article, I think we have to give it a bit more generous of a reading then some are, and assume that the intended audience isn't the average DBR poster but rather the minority that has become louder than usual of late. When viewed in that light, I don't think the article is at all unreasonable, and the general perspective it preaches is something for us all to consider if we can separate it from the more aggressive tone that isn't directed at us.

It's also very possible I'm viewing K's endorsement of Scheyer through rose colored glasses. Time will tell, I guess. But I don't think that time is now, or probably even a year from now. Hence why I think some of the hand wringing on this board/in this thread is so premature.

When I read the article, I didn't have a problem with it. I don't think DBR as a whole fits into the narrative of the "entitled Duke fan", so I wasn't bothered knowing that the comment was probably aimed at a "different" set of fan base. I also didn't take anything in the article personally... maybe why I wasn't bothered by it. The "shoe didn't fit"... in this case.

[heyman25]

I'm only about ~22 hours late, but here you go:

February 25. Will be interesting to see signs from Cameron Crazies for MJ Collins. Did he even apologize? What happened to the referee that missed this blatant Flagrant 1?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

February 25. Will be interesting to see signs from Cameron Crazies for MJ Collins. Did he even apologize? What happened to the referee that missed this blatant Flagrant 1?

It wasn't missed. It was seen, then looked at extensively on video. And then ignored. Even more confounding.

[arnie]

It wasn't missed. It was seen, then looked at extensively on video. And then ignored. Even more confounding.

Even Mark Packer was in disbelief some sort of foul wasn’t called🤬.

[MarkD83]

This has been covered *lots* of times, but "DBR" is a legacy name kept for whatever cache it had when SBN took over. The brief of this site is indeed to cover all Duke sports.

If we once again are hung up on the DBR name we can change to something really obscure like...."Julio Vision".

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If we once again are hung up on the DBR name we can change to something really obscure like..."Julio Vision".

I get this reference...

[jv001]

What I think is problematic for a lot of folks though is that the investment is much different now. Very few guys on this year's team were on last year's team. Very few of these guys will be on next year's team. So it's hard for some to be invested when things go poorly, because the likelihood of a "payout" (i.e., seeing those gains turn into something positive in the future) is low.

That's kind of the tradeoff of the OAD era. If things are going well, it's easy to stay invested, because there is a high potential for ACC titles and deep NCAA runs. If things aren't going well though? Then ACC titles and deep NCAA runs become unlikely. So the natural idea would be to watch for development for future seasons. But with so few guys expected to return, the fan investment seems fruitless.

So I can understand the frustration as a fan. I think the tradeoff fans have implicitly made is that "okay, we'll suffer the turnover as long as the results are awesome." But it's much harder to suffer the struggles when we know next year's team will look totally different anyway. You don't have the joy of seeing players develop over time, and you don't have the pleasure of the team being great. That's a much harder sell.



To be clear, I don't think the article is worth generosity given its tone. And also to be clear, I don't think the pitchforks should be out on Scheyer (and I don't think they really are here). But the tone in that article was just as inappropriate as the fans who are being whiny about Scheyer and about the season.

This post sums up my attitude on Duke Basketball in general. In the OAD era one of two things needs to happen for Duke to have a top ten team. 1) We need to have at least two elite recruits who play like elite recruits (Zion, RJ & Paolo), and those players need to be surrounded by some good role players. 2) We need a few really good recruits surrounded by really good players that have been at Duke for more than one season. It's not as easy to buy in on a team when you know most of the recruits will not be around the next season. The recruits that fail to produce and need another year or more will leave anyway because they were rated as NBA draft picks even before they put one foot on campus. Players like Duval, Steward, Keels. etc. As for Scheyer being hand picked by Coach K, the assistant coaches firmly said Jon was the right choice. So why should I argue with them.

GoDuke

[johnb]

I haven't been paying attention to threads or articles that imply some sort of global Duke doomsday scenario, but some of the complaints just seem ridiculous.

OAD. I'd prefer to know the players better/longer, but there's a lot of turnover throughout college basketball. In retrospect, it might seem like K mindfully decided on a OAD approach 20 years ago. That seems inaccurate. These OAD's are elite players who meet Duke's admissions requirements; it's safe to say that virtually all of our OAD's--al the way back to Maggette--would have had the option to go to any of the top 50 programs; if they all started wanting to go to Virginia (to use an example of a great program that does it differently), do you really think that Tony Bennett would turn down Dereck, Dariq, Mark, and Kyle? Did K "adjust" to the times? Yeah, I guess, but he was also simply accepting the reality that future pros were unusually attracted to him, the Duke brand, his involvement with NBA players who play for USA Basketball, and the success of his players in the NBA. As a strategy, it's a little hit or miss in terms of overall success, but, almost every year, we've had the talent level that led me to think we could make the Final Four. That's pretty good.

How is this year going? I've felt moments of frustration and disappointment, and I am aware that many of our rotation players are likely to peak a few years after they leave Duke (which is a drag), but things seem basically fine with the team. Every game through the rest of the season is on tv and likely to be competitive. Are we making obvious errors in terms of player management? I'm not seeing it. Would I like them to shoot better and win all our games? Uhm, sure. Assuming we continue to improve, however, we stand to make a solid run in the NCAA's.

Is Scheyer the right coach? Is that even a question? Really? Coach K was the GOAT, and his teams routinely had disappointing phases during the season. Bummer to lose twice to Carolina last year, but we did lose a great game in the Final Four--that's a great season. And one thing about athletics, there is always Next Play.

But it's not like K was the perfect coach. One could say that a potential NBA MVP should have played in the 2nd weekend in the NCAA, and that the universe's best player should have made the Final Four, and that we should always make the NCAA. But the thing is, college basketball is very competitive, and no coach or team gets to win (or even be really good) all the time.

[Kedsy]

In the OAD era one of two things needs to happen for Duke to have a top ten team. 1) We need to have at least two elite recruits who play like elite recruits (Zion, RJ & Paolo), and those players need to be surrounded by some good role players. 2) We need a few really good recruits surrounded by really good players that have been at Duke for more than one season.

Isn't this the same as saying we need to have good players? From 2014-15 to 2021-22 (Duke's "OAD era"), literally every single team in that time frame was ranked in the top 10 at some point in the season. All but two of the teams were in the top 10 at some point in March (that same group were all top 11 final AP). Of the remaining two, one of them was top 10 at some point in January (the other stopped being top 10 in December). If you'd rather look at KenPom, all but three of the teams in that time period were top 10 in Pomeroy's final rankings (and two of the other three were pre-tournament #12 and #14).

Basically, every Duke team except the pandemic year was pretty close to a top 10 team (and they all were top 10 at this point in the season or later). And this team's story isn't written yet.

[Papa John]

If we once again are hung up on the DBR name we can change to something really obscure like..."Julio Vision".

Or how about Sagamartha Bulletin Board System?

[kako]

Even Mark Packer was in disbelief some sort of foul wasn’t called🤬.

I was trying to avoid this thread. I support Scheyer 100% and feel any major criticism for him in his first season as HC is unwarranted. Of course, he's not perfect, even K wasn't. But Scheyer's not an elephant in my room.

But I was surprised to see some talk about the flagrant/non-flagrant here. I have been looking for any official comment. Rather than ask for it here, I'll start a thread specific for it.

9F

[kAzE]

I was trying to avoid this thread. I support Scheyer 100% and feel any major criticism for him in his first season as HC is unwarranted. Of course, he's not perfect, even K wasn't.

As a reminder to anyone doubting Coach Scheyer: Coach K's first 3 years at Duke, he went 17-13, 10-17, and 11-17. Duke missed the NCAA tournament each year. Of course, he didn't have the type of talent and all the advantages Scheyer has had to start, but it shows that you need to be patient. This is a first time head coach. He'll never be Coach K, but he's going to be a much better coach a couple years from now than today. We'll see where that takes things.

[Kedsy]

Of course, he didn't have the type of talent and all the advantages Scheyer has had to start, but it shows that you need to be patient.

What K did have was 8 of the top 10 players returning from an Elite Eight team. That's an advantage far above what Scheyer has had.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Hopefully, our basketball program will be successful again at some point. Unfortunately, looking back at the great teams and franchises, the task is monumental. Not a lot of teams/organizations have been able to do it. The Yankees, Cowboys, UCLA Bruins and Celtics all come to mind. Other teams like Kansas and Kentucky have pulled it off. I’m not going to lie- I was pulling for Bobby Hurley. He came through the Duke system and had head coaching experience. He also has a natural toughness and mean streak I absolutely love. But, I wasn’t in charge of hiring our new coach, and as much as I shake my head with some of the decisions I’ve seen Coach Scheyer make this season, he’s our guy and I won’t say a bad thing about him. I really wish him the best success.

[Kedsy]

Hopefully, our basketball program will be successful again at some point.

Seriously, we're already unsuccessful?