The Elephant in the Room: Lets talk about Jon Scheyer

[flyingdutchdevil]

While I share your frustrations about the Line Monitors, I take mild umbrage at the comparison with the mods here. The mods do yeoman's work without any sort of thanks or recognition. Without them, this wouldn't be the "community" that I've grown to love, but likely would've devolved into another IC-like fan forum long ago. They have an important job to do here, and they do it well, despite taking a lot of unfair criticism in the process.

And, FWIW, you'll find the mods to be a fair and agreeable bunch if you engage with them in good faith. True story: I received a fairly serious infraction for "rumor mongering" in my early days on the board, as I had heard through the grapevine at The Chronicle that Michael Gbinije was planning on transferring well before there was any sourced reporting on the topic. I had a back and forth with the mods, understood the policy more clearly, and was graciously told that, if something like that every came across my desk again, that I should feel free to reach out to run it by them before posting. It was a positive experience out of something that could've driven me away from DBR forever, and man am I glad it didn't.

As to the article, I agree that the tone choice was interesting. I mentioned I was thinking of writing something on similar lines, but I had in mind a much different tone and style. So it goes: everyone has a slightly different voice when they're writing. You're entitled to your opinion about the tone, although I disagree. I will say that it's a shame that the core of the piece is now getting ignored in lieu of discussing the tone, which is a responsibility all parties (us and the author) share.

I think the gist of the piece is fine. I'm not sure there are a lot of folks who disagree with the overall message of the post: it's too early to crap on Scheyer, give him time, he's young, he's following a legend, etc.

The tone is awful. It's basically a passionate fan crapping on other passionate fans. And that kind of tone doesn't help when you're discussing this topic.

Scott - if you had written that piece, it would have been level-headed without the need to insult a large portion of the fanbase.

[Southgate0809]

So quick question. Lets play DUKE MULTIVERSE in which in an alternate reality, Duke beats UNC and then KU to win K's 6th and final championship. And everything else for this season is the same. Same record, same losses, same lineup struggles.

How are we feeling about Jon now?

I think thats part of it, at least I'll admit it to some degree. I wanted Duke to have an answer for how last year ended, maybe another (very unlikely at this point) FF run, to get the program "back on track" after suffering what was an emotionally grueling loss.

We're not getting that. We're having to be more patient than I think anyone here expected to be at this point. The pendulum of unpredictability swings both ways. We did not foresee an unranked Duke MBB team in late January, anymore than we foresaw the football team going 9-4 in its 1st year under Coach Elko.

My biggest concern about the team and program currently is how many of this year's players are going to return and build on this experience. Its not going to be fun to see the team struggle only to have them start from scratch next season. I know some lineup turnover is inevitable, but if Scheyer can get some more player retention, and those players improve, then I'm going to be more at peace.

If Duke had won the championship last year, I'd be fine without another regular season win for about the next 5 years. But raising the hypothetical is not helping me grieving process. I believe I'm in the "bargaining stage." What gives me peace is that UNC lost the championship. In a way, beating someone in the final four, then losing the title game isn't really all that different than beating them in the round of 64 or even in the regular season. Neither of you were champions.

[flyingdutchdevil]

So quick question. Lets play DUKE MULTIVERSE in which in an alternate reality, Duke beats UNC and then KU to win K's 6th and final championship. And everything else for this season is the same. Same record, same losses, same lineup struggles.

How are we feeling about Jon now?

I think thats part of it, at least I'll admit it to some degree. I wanted Duke to have an answer for how last year ended, maybe another (very unlikely at this point) FF run, to get the program "back on track" after suffering what was an emotionally grueling loss.

We're not getting that. We're having to be more patient than I think anyone here expected to be at this point. The pendulum of unpredictability swings both ways. We did not foresee an unranked Duke MBB team in late January, anymore than we foresaw the football team going 9-4 in its 1st year under Coach Elko.

My biggest concern about the team and program currently is how many of this year's players are going to return and build on this experience. Its not going to be fun to see the team struggle only to have them start from scratch next season. I know some lineup turnover is inevitable, but if Scheyer can get some more player retention, and those players improve, then I'm going to be more at peace.

Sure. Every time someone wins a natty, there is a grace period. Regardless of a coaching switch. This thread may have been delayed by 11 months (or a couple of months).

I don't think losing in the FF to UNC has anything to do with this thread, though (outside of Duke not winning the whole thing). This thread was created and added to because it's a way to vent frustration. I get it. I disagree with recommending any premature actions towards Scheyer, but I think it's fine for fans to talk about what Scheyer is doing right, what's he's doing wrong, and what needs to change.

[scottdude8]

So quick question. Lets play DUKE MULTIVERSE in which in an alternate reality, Duke beats UNC and then KU to win K's 6th and final championship. And everything else for this season is the same. Same record, same losses, same lineup struggles.

How are we feeling about Jon now?

I think thats part of it, at least I'll admit it to some degree. I wanted Duke to have an answer for how last year ended, maybe another (very unlikely at this point) FF run, to get the program "back on track" after suffering what was an emotionally grueling loss.

We're not getting that. We're having to be more patient than I think anyone here expected to be at this point. The pendulum of unpredictability swings both ways. We did not foresee an unranked Duke MBB team in late January, anymore than we foresaw the football team going 9-4 in its 1st year under Coach Elko.

My biggest concern about the team and program currently is how many of this year's players are going to return and build on this experience. Its not going to be fun to see the team struggle only to have them start from scratch next season. I know some lineup turnover is inevitable, but if Scheyer can get some more player retention, and those players improve, then I'm going to be more at peace.

I think this goes to the heart of what we're all feeling... we placed a lot more weight on this season after we lost to UNC in the Final Four. I'd argue that even in a slightly less fun Duke Multiverse, where ANYTHING happens besides UNC beating us in the Final Four, and we're feeling very differently about this season.

[CDu]

Long story short: it can also be fun rooting for a team that doesn't have National Championship or bust expectations. I think most rational people here recognize that, while the ceiling is still high enough for those goals, a lot of things would have to go right (many of which are out of the team's hands, like Dariq's health) for us to approach that ceiling. But it can still be a heck of a lot of fun watching this team run their race, working to find their stride by March to hopefully make an unexpected run at things. Heck, the 2017 ACC Tourney is one of my most cherished memories as a Duke fan because of how unexpected it was. This team can still do some pretty awesome unexpected things, but our enjoyment of them will be proportional to how we tweak our perspective based on the first 20 games of the season.

What I think is problematic for a lot of folks though is that the investment is much different now. Very few guys on this year's team were on last year's team. Very few of these guys will be on next year's team. So it's hard for some to be invested when things go poorly, because the likelihood of a "payout" (i.e., seeing those gains turn into something positive in the future) is low.

That's kind of the tradeoff of the OAD era. If things are going well, it's easy to stay invested, because there is a high potential for ACC titles and deep NCAA runs. If things aren't going well though? Then ACC titles and deep NCAA runs become unlikely. So the natural idea would be to watch for development for future seasons. But with so few guys expected to return, the fan investment seems fruitless.

So I can understand the frustration as a fan. I think the tradeoff fans have implicitly made is that "okay, we'll suffer the turnover as long as the results are awesome." But it's much harder to suffer the struggles when we know next year's team will look totally different anyway. You don't have the joy of seeing players develop over time, and you don't have the pleasure of the team being great. That's a much harder sell.

You're 100% right on all counts. Regarding the article, I think we have to give it a bit more generous of a reading then some are, and assume that the intended audience isn't the average DBR poster but rather the minority that has become louder than usual of late. When viewed in that light, I don't think the article is at all unreasonable, and the general perspective it preaches is something for us all to consider if we can separate it from the more aggressive tone that isn't directed at us.

It's also very possible I'm viewing K's endorsement of Scheyer through rose colored glasses. Time will tell, I guess. But I don't think that time is now, or probably even a year from now. Hence why I think some of the hand wringing on this board/in this thread is so premature.

To be clear, I don't think the article is worth generosity given its tone. And also to be clear, I don't think the pitchforks should be out on Scheyer (and I don't think they really are here). But the tone in that article was just as inappropriate as the fans who are being whiny about Scheyer and about the season.

[Southgate0809]

I haven't read every post, but I haven't seen anyone on here suggesting he be fired right? Of course, you'll see that on Twitter. You'll see much worse things about the coaches, the players, their mothers, etc.

Forget coaching game to game. Forget this season. The biggest thing Scheyer needs to prove is showing that he can keep players longer than 1 year. Duke hasn't had a good senior player since Grayson Allen graduated. Think about that. That opens the door to getting a few young players who wind up being talented, but not all-world superstars, and you're in trouble. It's not a recipe for success. Scheyer didn't create that problem or that culture. Coach K left him with 2 returning players, 1 of them pretty much didn't play the previous year. We won in 2015 with big time freshman talent AND good upperclass leadership.

[CDu]

I think this goes to the heart of what we're all feeling... we placed a lot more weight on this season after we lost to UNC in the Final Four. I'd argue that even in a slightly less fun Duke Multiverse, where ANYTHING happens besides UNC beating us in the Final Four, and we're feeling very differently about this season.

I do think that the loss to UNC in Cameron last year and the loss to UNC in the Final Four last year are weighing on many folks subconsciously. I don't think that's the entirely (or even the major factor) of why those who are upset are upset. I suspect that there is a large contingent that would be similarly upset regardless of last year's results.

[scottdude8]

What I think is problematic for a lot of folks though is that the investment is much different now. Very few guys on this year's team were on last year's team. Very few of these guys will be on next year's team. So it's hard for some to be invested when things go poorly, because the likelihood of a "payout" (i.e., seeing those gains turn into something positive in the future) is low.

That's kind of the tradeoff of the OAD era. If things are going well, it's easy to stay invested, because there is a high potential for ACC titles and deep NCAA runs. If things aren't going well though? Then ACC titles and deep NCAA runs become unlikely. So the natural idea would be to watch for development for future seasons. But with so few guys expected to return, the fan investment seems fruitless.

So I can understand the frustration as a fan. I think the tradeoff fans have implicitly made is that "okay, we'll suffer the turnover as long as the results are awesome." But it's much harder to suffer the struggles when we know next year's team will look totally different anyway. You don't have the joy of seeing players develop over time, and you don't have the pleasure of the team being great. That's a much harder sell.

Yeah, that's a fair point, and I think that's a sentiment that isn't necessarily unique to this year... we were feeling very similar during the COVID year, although perhaps toned down by how much of an outlier everything involved in that season was.

I do think we need to adopt a bit more of a wait-and-see approach with Jon as it pertains to roster turnover and OAD. As some have mentioned, his class next year, and the players he's targeted in 2024, include a few likely multi-year guys. I also think it's non-trivial that he has Schutt and Reeves in this year's class (not to mention Young as a potential sixth year), assuming of course they stick around. And we also don't know about the NIL of it all: it's clear that Jon is embracing the new world order, as evidenced by the position he created for Rachel Baker. In a vacuum, I think there's a decent chance we return one guy out of Roach, Proctor, Filipowski, and Mitchell. With NIL factored in, I don't think it's outlandish to hope for two returnees from that group (not saying it'll happen, just that there's a non-trivial chance), whereas that would've been out of the question as recently as two seasons ago. I think we'll learn a lot about Jon's plan for longer-term roster management after this year's NBA decisions.

To be clear, I don't think the article is worth generosity given its tone. And also to be clear, I don't think the pitchforks should be out on Scheyer (and I don't think they really are here). But the tone in that article was just as inappropriate as the fans who are being whiny about Scheyer and about the season.

Fair enough. I can accept that I'm definitely outnumbered as it pertains to that piece and that it's not worth fighting a losing battle just for the sake of fighting. So I'll put that discussion to the side

[bluebeagle]

I think overall coach has done a good job. He's working with a lot of RAW talent with very little college level basketball skills. There's one thing he can't do and that's go in and take free throws for anyone. And let's be honest, no one on the team that's playing can hit a 3 with any consistency. My only real beef is this. If you can't hit shots from outside why not try to run more fast breaks. In other words, why would you every want to play against some ones set defense if you can't hit shots? Especially when you have nine or ten great athletes to rotate in and out. One other thing. I doubt K would be doing much better with what we have to work with skill wise.

[dudog84]

Shouldn't this nonsense be reserved for the off-season? You know, when people have time for navel-gazing.

[UrinalCake]

On the topic of Jon choosing to not go ballistic on the refs and pick up a T... last night Jim Boeheim was on the receiving end of a bad call (actually several, but two in particular) and did complain to the refs but similarly kept his cool. He initially complained to the ref about the F1 call, then was particularly upset by Mintz getting called for a foul when Love basically shoved him out of the way. But he again chose not to get himself T'ed up, knowing the game was still winnable.

I guess he has learned from past experience, a lesson Jon has already acquired.

boeheim.jpg

[moonpie23]

jon does not have the escrow of the previous ALL TIME WINNINGEST COLLEGE BB COACH to start scorch earthing the refs...he could get himself (and duke) a target on their back if he acts like he does....he will have to pay dues to the refs before he can have his "EFF YOU DEAN!!" direct deposit moment...


as i said in chat, the team will come out much better in the 2nd half and they did...


the throat punch should definitely been called an FG1...

[Southgate0809]

I don't think losing it on the refs is ever an advantageous thing to do at the end of a game. I guess you can push the boundaries earlier in the game to make a point or to get your team fired up. I know it looks bad for a coach to complain about officiating in the post-game after a loss (a la Bo Ryan after the 2015 title game), but I wouldn't have blamed him if he said something. You can still say VT deserved the win and made the plays they needed to make, but that call was BS. It was BS because it involved the health and safety of our player and also because it was reviewable. It fits perfectly with every single phrase and description listed in the definition of a flagrant 1 foul. It was nowhere near as heartbreaking of a loss, but the screw-up by the refs was as big as the Miami lateral play against us. That being said, we still could have lost the game if we got 2 free throws and the ball, so the no-call wasn't necessarily as impactful on the game, but I thought it was just as egregious of a mistake. It showed either a blatant misunderstanding of the rule or a blatant cowardice to make that kind of call at the end of the game.

[CameronDuke]

I may be cut from a different cloth but can’t stand when things I care about get harm inflicted onto them intentionally or otherwise … family, friends, pets, vehicles, gear, etc. Duke basketball is a family and we defend our own at all costs. I would be none too pleased to be coaching a young talent like Flip and seeing him unintentionally take a haymaker to the voice box and nothing get called. The kid was keeled over on the court and in the huddle vomiting for Christ’s sake. I mean come on! I think it would be understandable after seeing one of your family members in that condition to be hot under the collar and boiling mad. Collins, Jr. obviously didn’t land the Mike Tyson-like right jab to Flip’s windpipes intentionally, and I have nothing against that kid or the play he made. He was celebrating the biggest basket of the game at that point. But my God, the next logical choice to direct some frustration is the officials who clearly did not enforce the accurate and correct rule on that play and it resulted in severe pain and vomiting to one of our players. You have to step up and protect your guys there. Not saying get a technical foul, although I’d understand it. But by golly, toe the line and direct a few choice words at the officials and show Flip and the boys we have their best interest and physical safety in mind as priority number one.

[Southgate0809]

I may be cut from a different cloth but can’t stand when things I care about get harm inflicted onto them intentionally or otherwise … family, friends, pets, vehicles, gear, etc. Duke basketball is a family and we defend our own at all costs. I would be none too pleased to be coaching a young talent like Flip and seeing him unintentionally take a haymaker to the voice box and nothing get called. The kid was keeled over on the court and in the huddle vomiting for Christ’s sake. I mean come on! I think it would be understandable after seeing one of your family members in that condition to be hot under the collar and boiling mad. Collins, Jr. obviously didn’t land the Mike Tyson-like right jab to Flip’s windpipes intentionally, and I have nothing against that kid or the play he made. He was celebrating the biggest basket of the game at that point. But my God, the next logical choice to direct some frustration is the officials who clearly did not enforce the accurate and correct rule on that play and it resulted in severe pain and vomiting to one of our players. You have to step up and protect your guys there. Not saying get a technical foul, although I’d understand it. But by golly, toe the line and direct a few choice words at the officials and show Flip and the boys we have their best interest and physical safety in mind as priority number one.

That's a good point. Not saying you have to get a technical or even walk that line, but you should be pretty demonstrative after that play.

[HoKogan]

I've not read the front page piece yet, but I do remember sometime in 2021 they wrote a similar support column for David Cutcliffe, that didn't come off as preachy, but did seem like the author didn't pay much attention to the football team beyond a surface level understanding that the team had lost more games than it had won. It then opined that we fans should be glad that Duke was not some cold blooded mercenary program like an SEC school who would put a bullet in Cutcliffe's career at the first sign of trouble. And while that sentiment is certainly true, it seemed to be oblivious to where the football program was in terms of culture and player attitude.

I know DBR enjoys a good relationship with Duke athletics, but that should not prevent a 3rd party entity from critical evaluation on the product they cover.

[Southgate0809]

I've not read the front page piece yet, but I do remember sometime in 2021 they wrote a similar support column for David Cutcliffe, that didn't come off as preachy, but did seem like the author didn't pay much attention to the football team beyond a surface level understanding that the team had lost more games than it had won. It then opined that we fans should be glad that Duke was not some cold blooded mercenary program like an SEC school who would put a bullet in Cutcliffe's career at the first sign of trouble. And while that sentiment is certainly true, it seemed to be oblivious to where the football program was in terms of culture and player attitude.

I know DBR enjoys a good relationship with Duke athletics, but that should not prevent a 3rd party entity from critical evaluation on the product they cover.

The podcast crew enjoys a good relationship with Jay Bilas, and repeatedly refuses to call him out on his intense on-air bias when he visits the podcast...

[flyingdutchdevil]

I've not read the front page piece yet, but I do remember sometime in 2021 they wrote a similar support column for David Cutcliffe, that didn't come off as preachy, but did seem like the author didn't pay much attention to the football team beyond a surface level understanding that the team had lost more games than it had won. It then opined that we fans should be glad that Duke was not some cold blooded mercenary program like an SEC school who would put a bullet in Cutcliffe's career at the first sign of trouble. And while that sentiment is certainly true, it seemed to be oblivious to where the football program was in terms of culture and player attitude.

I know DBR enjoys a good relationship with Duke athletics, but that should not prevent a 3rd party entity from critical evaluation on the product they cover.

Probably why it's called "Duke Basketball Report" and not "Duke Sports Report". I'd assume the author knows a lot more about bball than football. But you know what they say about assuming...

[Southgate0809]

Probably why it's called "Duke Basketball Report" and not "Duke Sports Report". I'd assume the author knows a lot more about bball than football. But you know what they say about assuming...

I'm pretty sure the DBR forums have bylaws against assuming. It comes with a 1-year ban, and then you have to make a public apology.

[Dr. Maturin]

What I think is problematic for a lot of folks though is that the investment is much different now. Very few guys on this year's team were on last year's team. Very few of these guys will be on next year's team. So it's hard for some to be invested when things go poorly, because the likelihood of a "payout" (i.e., seeing those gains turn into something positive in the future) is low.

That's kind of the tradeoff of the OAD era. If things are going well, it's easy to stay invested, because there is a high potential for ACC titles and deep NCAA runs. If things aren't going well though? Then ACC titles and deep NCAA runs become unlikely. So the natural idea would be to watch for development for future seasons. But with so few guys expected to return, the fan investment seems fruitless.

So I can understand the frustration as a fan. I think the tradeoff fans have implicitly made is that "okay, we'll suffer the turnover as long as the results are awesome." But it's much harder to suffer the struggles when we know next year's team will look totally different anyway. You don't have the joy of seeing players develop over time, and you don't have the pleasure of the team being great. That's a much harder sell.

Agreed for two reasons:

1) I personally find it more rewarding to be along for the ride of a player's development over the course of years. Wendell Moore making himself into a really good player as a junior was more satisfying than seeing most of our OAD players who have been stars, for example. It is certainly a lot of fun to watch guys like Zion/RJ/Paolo play for Duke, but with it comes a lot of more forgettable one year players as well (nothing against those guys or anything; I'll just never have a "fan bond" with them the way I would with multi-year guys).

2) The OAD model puts the focus on the short term. It can be hard to be patient when you know next year's team will have a very different roster. It's one thing to stomach a rebuilding season (which nearly all programs have, and which Duke fans have mostly been spared from over the last generation) with an understanding that it will lay the groundwork for future seasons. For Duke, the process will mostly start anew next year. That can be a good thing - 2021's disappointment turned over into a 32-win team in 2022. But there is less a sense of program-building when the roster looks totally different from year to year. I know a lot of folks hope Jon will take a different approach to roster construction with more of an eye towards the longer-term. I suppose we'll see.