The Elephant in the Room: Lets talk about Jon Scheyer

[dukelifer]

Shane Ryan, occasional DBR poster, goes in on Scheyer after last night's win.

@ShaneRyanHere
It was always a kind of malpractice to give the reins of a program like Duke to a guy who had never been a head coach before, but because it was Coach K's call, Duke fans en masse would never point out how idiotic it was. Too much groupthink. There's a reason Duke wanted Amaker. Buckle up, we're in for 3-5 years of the same one-and-done we've had with K for the last decade, but with worse coaching and probably worse recruiting with time. Only mystery is how long Duke waits to go against the guru and send Scheyer packing.

Interesting take. Yes Scheyer is not as good a K - just needs 40+ years more experience- and recruits may start to go elsewhere or where NIL money is the highest. But it is hard to replace a legend. Jon is certainly respected by the fan base and has the ability to coach. A new coach would unlikely have had more success out of the gate- as time is needed to establish a program. First year success is even harder when you start with a team with only one returning starter and top recruits that were injured or lacked any offensive game. Hard to know where this will go. Maybe a different choice could have brought parts of an existing team with him and had a better base. Not sure Amaker could have done that. Scheyer has much work to do as the game of college basketball is very different now. Duke can easily become just another program and recruits may come to view it differently. Time will tell.

[CDu]

Oh I forgot all about that guy.

“Always…malpractice” - how many other times has the reins of a program like Duke been passed to a first time coach? Don’t think he’d find much evidence to draw any sort of real conclusion.

Shane apparently expects us to believe it’s “malpractice” to hire a first time coach at Duke, and Coach K didn’t see that but the University did. He’s implying that the University cared more about the success of the Hoops program than K. And their solution was… Tommy Amaker? IF this was such an obvious thing and these were the dynamics, wouldn’t the administration push for the best possible outside hire?

I am guessing Shane doesn’t follow recruiting either. He’s just assuming it’s going to be 3-5 years of One and Done with no changes. Never mind Scheyer’s obvious attempt to get older through the Transfer Portal, and the profile of the guys he has signed over the next couple years.

Finally, he’s making some pretty big assumptions on a small sample size about Scheyer’s competence and approach. And this is in a year where Jon *inherited K’s approach to roster building*. Maybe let’s give the guy some time and see what happens?

There actually HAVE been a few examples of elite programs handing off to first-time coaches. Roy Williams was a first-time coach when he took the Kansas job. Hubert Davis a first-time coach when he took the UNC job. Heck, Dean Smith was a first-time coach when he took the UNC job.

As for Shane Ryan, I don’t have a very high opinion of him to begin with. But his opinion on this matter means little, as he has no idea what he is talking about.

[DukieTiger]

There actually HAVE been a few examples of elite programs handing off to first-time coaches. Roy Williams was a first-time coach when he took the Kansas job. Hubert Davis a first-time coach when he took the UNC job. Heck, Dean Smith was a first-time coach when he took the UNC job.

As for Shane Ryan, I don’t have a very high opinion of him to begin with. But his opinion on this matter means little, as he has no idea what he is talking about.

So based on that data, hiring a first time head coach to a blue blood = remaining a blue blood, going to Final Fours, and at least a 67% chance to have a hall of fame career

I joke, but that’s sort of my point. It actually *has* worked well in the past.

Agreed on your last comment.

[kAzE]

Yikes, that Shane Ryan tweet is very cringe . . . I actually think Jon has adjusted some of his recruiting focus towards guys who project as players who will stick around for more than a year. Even this year, I think only Lively and Whitehead are guaranteed OADs. Schutt should definitely be back next season, and it's no sure thing that Flip, Proctor, and Mitchell will all declare.

I think it's just bad form to post something that scathing not even 1 full year into this coaching tenure. Give the man a chance. If we're still posting 10+ L's each season for the next 3 years, then we can start asking these questions, but I'm still 100% behind Scheyer. I think he's already pretty good, and with more experience, he will only get better. This is a flawed roster, and he's done some good things, and gotten more than his fair share of bad breaks.

[Southgate0809]

Yikes, that Shane Ryan tweet is very cringe . . . I actually think Jon has adjusted some of his recruiting focus towards guys who project as players who will stick around for more than a year. Even this year, I think only Lively and Whitehead are guaranteed OADs. Schutt should definitely be back next season, and it's no sure thing that Flip, Proctor, and Mitchell will all declare.

I think it's just bad form to post something that scathing not even 1 full year into this coaching tenure. Give the man a chance. If we're still posting 10+ L's each season for the next 3 years, then we can start asking these questions, but I'm still 100% behind Scheyer. I think he's already pretty good, and with more experience, he will only get better. This is a flawed roster, and he's done some good things, and gotten more than his fair share of bad breaks.

Agreed. I don't think we fall that far behind early in the games at State and Miami, but I don't know if our record would be any different this year under K.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

To be clear - I didn't mean to in any way defend Shane Ryan. But I did want to point out that "former DBR poster" sells his credentials and experience short.

[kAzE]

I'd much rather have Jon Scheyer as our coach than Hubert Davis or John Calipari. And Bill Self isn't exactly running the cleanest program, so in terms of blue blood coaches, I think we're definitely in the upper echelon.

[Kedsy]

He seems like he's learning that you have to have outlandish hot takes to make the most money in the sports journalism world.

No, Shane Ryan has always known that. It's what got him where he is today.

As for his opinion in this case, I agree with others who think it's an uneducated take. Probably more elite programs have gone with longtime assistants after iconic coaching retirements than not. Hard to consider something to be idiotic malpractice when it's such a common occurrence.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Yikes, that Shane Ryan tweet is very cringe . . . I actually think Jon has adjusted some of his recruiting focus towards guys who project as players who will stick around for more than a year. Even this year, I think only Lively and Whitehead are guaranteed OADs. Schutt should definitely be back next season, and it's no sure thing that Flip, Proctor, and Mitchell will all declare.

I think it's just bad form to post something that scathing not even 1 full year into this coaching tenure. Give the man a chance. If we're still posting 10+ L's each season for the next 3 years, then we can start asking these questions, but I'm still 100% behind Scheyer. I think he's already pretty good, and with more experience, he will only get better. This is a flawed roster, and he's done some good things, and gotten more than his fair share of bad breaks.

Completely agree with this.

Ryan is just wrong if he thinks that Scheyer is taking the same recruiting approach as Coach K did over the previous ~6 seasons. Granted, it's not all that different. Duke is still going after many talented players each year. But it's clear that the bulk of the guys are not of the Paolo/Zion/Tatum variety. Since the Class of 2014, you knew there were 2-4 guys each year that were only going to be on campus for one season and then the next class would have the next crop of guys with the hopes of maybe 1 or 2 guys being around for longer than that. I can see how it's not a big shift to 1-2 OADs with 2-4 multi-year guys, but it is a shift. It means that there will be more Luke Kennard/Tre Jones/Mark Williams types each year. I see that as a shift. Get to know some of the guys on the current roster, because they'll be here next year.

The other thing is that this season isn't written yet. There's a not-bad chance that things just kind of putter along from here. Duke is in the low 30s/high 40s in the dork polls. Maybe they get a 7 or 9 seed, lose in the first round, and that's it. It sucks, but that is how things go some years. Coach K certainly had a few dud years, even with higher-rated teams (2007, 2012, and 2014 come to mind). But it's also possible that what this team has needed is time or just the right breaks. Last year's Miami team was 54th on T-Rank at the end of the regular season before they made the Elite 8. Syracuse was 57th in T-Rank in 2021 before their Sweet 16 run. Oregon was 59th in 2019 before their run to the Sweet 16. There is usually at least 1-2 Power Conference teams that are sort of middling in the dork polls that make major runs each year. Why not Duke? The talent is there. Maybe they figure out the offense over the next 4 weeks with Whitehead providing the 3-point shooting they desperately need, giving everyone else the space they need to operate as teams scramble to find a shooter. Even if that doesn't happen, Duke offers a different look than other teams just by virtue of all that size. It could be hard to gameplan on a short turnaround. At any rate, you never know.

Either way, I see the griping as a sign of being spoiled with success. Things change. Take this article as an example. Is the future still bright in Chapel Hill? No more than the prospects dim in Durham.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...rn/9466484002/

[CDu]

To be clear - I didn't mean to in any way defend Shane Ryan. But I did want to point out that "former DBR poster" sells his credentials and experience short.

Eh, his credentials are basically being the print version of shock-jock radio. There are any number of posters at DBR whose opinion I would give more weight on this matter.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Eh, his credentials are basically being the print version of shock-jock radio. There are any number of posters at DBR whose opinion I would give more weight on this matter.

Now we're all going to wonder which of us you hold in high regard...

[ChillinDuke]

Did Shane Ryan go on record that Scheyer was a malpractice hire before the season started? Because if he didn't, his take is essentially worthless.

- Chillin

[azzefkram]

Now we're all going to wonder which of us you hold in high regard...

I think I may have just missed the cut.

[kako]

Shane Ryan, occasional DBR poster, goes in on Scheyer after last night's win.

@ShaneRyanHere
It was always a kind of malpractice to give the reins of a program like Duke to a guy who had never been a head coach before, but because it was Coach K's call, Duke fans en masse would never point out how idiotic it was. Too much groupthink. There's a reason Duke wanted Amaker. Buckle up, we're in for 3-5 years of the same one-and-done we've had with K for the last decade, but with worse coaching and probably worse recruiting with time. Only mystery is how long Duke waits to go against the guru and send Scheyer packing.

I think Ryan is off-base. To be honest, I would have liked Amaker as well. He's won at Harvard, of all places. And he was a part of the legacy that is K. But in Ian O'Conner's book on K, it was clear how K wanted this succession to go... and it made sense to me. He wanted a plan and smooth transition, not a sudden departure and scrambling recovery. In order for that to happen, the new coach would have to be on his bench for the year, and that guy would recruit the new class. Pulling Amaker in didn't make sense, as that meant someone would have to be demoted on this staff. K is nothing if not loyal. And he didn't want to be accused of recruiting a new class then bailing on them. Like I said, I would have picked Amaker, but K definitely earned the right to handle this however he wanted to handle it. Not doing what K wanted might have had unforeseen repercussions beyond just going "against the guru" as Ryan supposedly says. Duke rode the K-train for so long (and rightfully so), so upsetting that train at the end would not have been smart unless they were absolutely convinced they would be hiring the next K outside of the Brotherhood.

But I'm fine with Scheyer, even if it takes some time for him to get things going. There was going to be some drop off after K (he is the GOAT, after all). I also think this season would have been quite different if there had been more returning players, which was not Scheyer's fault. There's nothing that's happened this season that makes me think Scheyer was a bad choice. Scheyer is not going to be K, so one could argue he will always be a worse coach unless he becomes the new GOAT. And there's no indication that recruiting will get worse over time. All coaches eventually leave, but Ryan's prognostications are basically his own... which are no more valid than mine.

9F

[robed deity]

After reading some Shane Ryan articles over the years, while he can be entertaining at times, I've never thought he had any idea what he was talking about when it comes to basketball.

[DukieInBrasil]

Yikes, that Shane Ryan tweet is very cringe . . . I actually think Jon has adjusted some of his recruiting focus towards guys who project as players who will stick around for more than a year. Even this year, I think only Lively and Whitehead are guaranteed OADs. Schutt should definitely be back next season, and it's no sure thing that Flip, Proctor, and Mitchell will all declare.

I think it's just bad form to post something that scathing not even 1 full year into this coaching tenure. Give the man a chance. If we're still posting 10+ L's each season for the next 3 years, then we can start asking these questions, but I'm still 100% behind Scheyer. I think he's already pretty good, and with more experience, he will only get better. This is a flawed roster, and he's done some good things, and gotten more than his fair share of bad breaks.

Duke still hasn't lost 10 games this year, and there's no guarantee that Duke will, although it is very likely...

[ClemmonsDevil]

He had me with the brilliant switch to zone in the last minute at UVA. It was a chess move. Absolutely brilliant. And I HATE zone. But excellent call.

[DukeTrinity11]

Ryan is a bright dude but he tends to be a bit reactionary.

Scheyer’s doing just fine. He’s not K. Tommy Amaker also is not K.

K was also not K this past decade and I think everyone knows it. Its hard to say whether K would have done better with this roster but I expected a bit more out of Scheyer to be sure.

I want 1990s Coach K back or Bill Self but it ain't happening so we have to live with what we have.

[Jeffrey]

K was also not K this past decade and I think everyone knows it.

Must confess, I didn’t know it. Maybe I was confused by the 2015 banner?

[cato]

Must confess, I didn’t know it. Maybe I was confused by the 2015 banner?

Or the FF banner from (checks notes) last April? Maybe that is what tripped you up.