Reeves question

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Joey Baker, oh wait.

Too soon!

[CDu]

How many recruited players has Duke even redshirted in the last 15 years? Marshall Plumlee is the only one I remember. We've had several sit out a year after transferring, but that's different.

Alex Murphy is the other non-medical redshirt. It is rare. Coach K has talked about his regret of not doing it more (Ryan Kelly was the example; imagine 5th year senior Kelly on the 2014 team), but aside from that one season with Murph and MP3, he just didn’t do it In the the 25 years or so.

[Southgate0809]

I'm guessing there are few players who want to continue playing at the same school after a 4th season. Kihei Clarke and Leaky Black seem like they are the rare exceptions for guys who decided to play a 5th year at the same school.

[Southgate0809]

Alex Murphy is the other non-medical redshirt. It is rare. Coach K has talked about his regret of not doing it more (Ryan Kelly was the example; imagine 5th year senior Kelly on the 2014 team), but aside from that one season with Murph and MP3, he just didn’t do it In the the 25 years or so.

I had forgotten that Alex Murphy redshirted, probably because he played just as little the next season.

[scottdude8]

How many recruited players has Duke even redshirted in the last 15 years? Marshall Plumlee is the only one I remember. We've had several sit out a year after transferring, but that's different.

Alex Murphy too.

[UrinalCake]

Didn't Murphy sustain a concussion during the preseason trip to China? Not sure if that qualifies it as a "medical redshirt" but it may have been a factor. Also I could have sworn that Savarino redshirted.

Anyways, redshirting at a school like Duke doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're not good enough to play even a little bit as a freshman, the chances of earning time down the road are slim. You'd be better off going to a smaller school, showing what you can do and then transferring into a P5 school.

[CDu]

Didn't Murphy sustain a concussion during the preseason trip to China? Not sure if that qualifies it as a "medical redshirt" but it may have been a factor. Also I could have sworn that Savarino redshirted.

Yes, Murphy sustained a concussion. I'm quite sure, based on how little he played as a redshirt freshman and sophomore, that the concussion was not the reason he was redshirted. I also say that based on the fact that he wasn't given a medical redshirt, and thus when he transferred for the second time he had to go to a D2 school (because he couldn't sit out a year).

Savarino was a walk-on. Many of the walk-ons redshirt, but that's not really what we're talking about here.

Anyways, redshirting at a school like Duke doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're not good enough to play even a little bit as a freshman, the chances of earning time down the road are slim. You'd be better off going to a smaller school, showing what you can do and then transferring into a P5 school.

It's rare, but there are cases where it makes sense, typically when the player isn't physically ready and/or is blocked by a senior or two at his position. For example, Ryan Kelly would have been a perfect option to redshirt. He was the 5th big in 2010, and was clearly not physically ready to play PF/C at the college level. So he played sparingly. But he was a starter the next year after Thomas and Zoubek graduated.

Baker was another case where it would have made sense, as he clearly wasn't ready as a freshman, but might have benefited from a development track. Obviously he never developed anyway, but there's little reason why he didn't develop and Buddy Boeheim did. Imagine the possibility of getting a 5th-year version of Buddy Boeheim, all at the expense of a handful of minutes as a true freshman.

Reeves seems like another such case. It's usually more useful for project bigs than it is for guards. He could have used the year to really work on his physical attributes and getting up to speed, such that his size/length would be a huge asset if he wanted to be around for a 5th year. Kansas has redshirted guys pretty regularly for this purpose.

It's rare, as you say, for a guy to have the underlying potential to be a regular at Duke but not be ready to contribute as a freshman. And it's probably even more rare these days, when we have fewer upperclassmen to block one's path. But it can still be a useful option.

[CDu]

Is redshirting even a thing anymore? I mean, I know it is a legal option for a player, but is anyone exercising that option anymore in the brave new world of college basketball mobility?

The main reason a redshirt may still be useful is for the second, graduate transfer. Redshirting allows you to maintain that 4th year of eligibility while also allowing you to get closer to graduation. You can transfer once without penalty. But if you transfer a second time, it had better be as a grad student.

[UrinalCake]

It's rare, but there are cases where it makes sense, typically when the player isn't physically ready and/or is blocked by a senior or two at his position. For example, Ryan Kelly would have been a perfect option to redshirt. He was the 5th big in 2010, and was clearly not physically ready to play PF/C at the college level. So he played sparingly. But he was a starter the next year after Thomas and Zoubek graduated.

2010 wasn't that long ago, but in terms of Duke's strategy for roster development it feels like a lifetime. If Ryan Kelly came in today he would have to know that every year we'd be bringing in another round of five stars to compete with. The concept of waiting your turn doesn't really apply in most cases. I do agree with you though that the most likely scenario is a big man who has skill but not physical strength like Kelly or Reeves.

I think there's a psychological aspect of redshirting that we as fans tend to overlook. Even though Reeves isn't getting any playing time, he knows that he COULD get into a game at any time and thus his approach to practice and game preparation is different than if he were redshirting. He played one possession in the Purdue game at the end of the first half (and did very well) which in the big picture feels completely meaningless but for him it meant he was engaged on the bench and maybe the next day in practice he goes a little harder against Lively knowing that an opportunity may present itself. I felt the same way about Baker when he burned his redshirt. He may have only played ten minutes or whatever, but none of us knows how much it affected him and his teammates behind the scenes.

To throw out another example, suppose Jaylen Blakes had redshirted last season as some thought he would. He only played 94 minutes, far less than the 227 that Ryan Kelly played as a freshman. But I would argue that had Blakes redshirted he would not have been as prepared to make the leap that he has this season. The small amount of playing time coupled with the potential for playing time caused his development to accelerate. And had he not developed at that rate, he probably doesn't get any playing time this season either and then ends up transfering away.

[Southgate0809]

Ryan Kelly was the #17 recruit in the country. If he came to Duke today, he would declare for the NBA draft after 1 season. A redshirt would be out of the question.

[scottdude8]

Didn't Murphy sustain a concussion during the preseason trip to China? Not sure if that qualifies it as a "medical redshirt" but it may have been a factor. Also I could have sworn that Savarino redshirted.

Anyways, redshirting at a school like Duke doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're not good enough to play even a little bit as a freshman, the chances of earning time down the road are slim. You'd be better off going to a smaller school, showing what you can do and then transferring into a P5 school.

Murphy's plan was always to redshirt, since he came to school a year early to practice with the team. He was Joey before Joey!

(Side note: I actually interviewed both Marshall and Alex for a piece while I was at The Chronicle about their decision to redshirt... I'm always sad that Alex didn't pan out in a Duke uniform. But I'll always remember getting to interview Marshall because, well, he's Marshall, and was just as fun and engaging in person as you'd expect.)

[Edouble]

Ryan Kelly was the #17 recruit in the country. If he came to Duke today, he would declare for the NBA draft after 1 season. A redshirt would be out of the question.

For argument's sake, Matthew Hurt was ranked #12 in 2019 and stayed two seasons.

[Southgate0809]

For argument's sake, Matthew Hurt was ranked #12 in 2019 and stayed two seasons.

And he stands out to us as an obvious counterexample because he was a glaring aberration.

[JasonEvans]

And he stands out to us as an obvious counterexample because he was a glaring aberration.

No he isn't.

Tre Jones was a top 15 recruit (#13 in RSCI) who stuck around 2 years.
Wendell Moore was a top 25 recruit who was here 3 seasons.
Jeremy Roach was top 20 recruit and he's here as a junior.
Mark Williams was top 25 and he lasted 2 seasons.
Grayson Allen was top 25 and he played 4 years.
Derryk Thornton and Chase Jeter were both top 15 recruits who played a long time in college (just not all of those years at Duke).
Marquis Bolden was the #11 recruit who stuck around for 3 season.

Check your facts... Matthew Hurt was far from a "glaring aberration."

[JasonEvans]

I'm guessing there are few players who want to continue playing at the same school after a 4th season. Kihei Clarke and Leaky Black seem like they are the rare exceptions for guys who decided to play a 5th year at the same school.

This isn't even close to being true. I'm not going to look it up because it would take too long, but there are scores of players across college basketball this year who are playing their 5th year at the same school.

At just Notre Dame there are 2 players who are 5th year seniors who know nothing but playing for Mike Brey. Clemson's Hunter Tyson is another one who is in his 5th year at the same school. It isn't nearly as uncommon as you seem to imply. Again, some research would have helped you here.

[JasonEvans]

Is Ryan Young in grad school? I thought he was in a 2-year grad program for a master's but do not recall where I heard that.

He is in a 1 year master of business program at Duke. Do not confuse it with the 2-year MBA program as they are quite different. Should he wish to remain at Duke next year -- which seems at least reasonably likely -- then he would have to enroll in a different graduate program.

[DoubleBlue]

He is in a 1 year master of business program at Duke. Do not confuse it with the 2-year MBA program as they are quite different. Should he wish to remain at Duke next year -- which seems at least reasonably likely -- then he would have to enroll in a different graduate program.

Could this imply that Young only anticipated a 1-year stint at Duke? Or perhaps he did not want to commit in advance to 2 years? Either way, it seems that there should be an option for another 1-year degree program if he really wants to stay.

[tommy]

It's rare, as you say, for a guy to have the underlying potential to be a regular at Duke but not be ready to contribute as a freshman. And it's probably even more rare these days, when we have fewer upperclassmen to block one's path.

Jaden Schutt sure hopes he's one of those rare exceptions . . .

[flyingdutchdevil]

Could this imply that Young only anticipated a 1-year stint at Duke? Or perhaps he did not want to commit in advance to 2 years? Either way, it seems that there should be an option for another 1-year degree program if he really wants to stay.

My guess is 1-year programs provide optionality. Also, the MMS program (Ryan's program) isn't a challenging program.

I would read nothing into Ryan's graduate school programs and Ryan's future plans.

[Southgate0809]

No he isn't.

Tre Jones was a top 15 recruit (#13 in RSCI) who stuck around 2 years.
Wendell Moore was a top 25 recruit who was here 3 seasons.
Jeremy Roach was top 20 recruit and he's here as a junior.
Mark Williams was top 25 and he lasted 2 seasons.
Grayson Allen was top 25 and he played 4 years.
Derryk Thornton and Chase Jeter were both top 15 recruits who played a long time in college (just not all of those years at Duke).
Marquis Bolden was the #11 recruit who stuck around for 3 season.

Check your facts... Matthew Hurt was far from a "glaring aberration."

Kyrie
Rivers
Jabari Parker
Okafor
Tyus Jones
Winslow
Ingram
Giles
Tatum
Frank Jackson
Bagley
Wendell Carter
Duval
Trent
RJ
Zion
Reddish
Vernon Carey
Cassius Stanley
Jalen Johnson
DJ Steward
Paolo
Keels
Griffin

I would argue that Matthew Hurt was one of the most highly regarded, if not the most highly regarded, recruit in the list you mentioned. Given how long the list is of guys who left and how most of the guys who stayed were ranked lower than Matthew Hurt, yes, I would say his staying for a second year was an aberration. You can encourage me to do more research. I can encourage you to be less condescending in your counterarguments.