Tracking the Duke transfers (Joey Baker, Henry Coleman, Jaemyn Brakefield)

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Good call. I think we’re a bit more attached to Joey as a four year player than Jaemyn/Henry which was my thought process, but agreed this can/should be expanded. Mods, please do so if appropriate.

When I first glanced at the thread title I wondered why we were discussing Joey Beard after all these years.

[CDu]

This will almost certainly be a discussion we will be having in April this year regarding Jaden Schutt and perhaps even Jaylen Blakes. Duke has a lot of backcourt talent coming in Foster and McCain. There is at least some chance that Proctor sticks around for another season. How long with Schutt wait to get minutes? Now that Blakes has shown he can play at this level, will he want to play somewhere that will offer his a larger role?

I suspect that Scheyer's more liberal use of the bench this season may be an incentive to guys to stick around longer.

I hope so, although it is worth noting that both Brakefield and Coleman did play as freshmen. Brakefield averaged double-digit minutes, and Coleman at least played in most of the games and started playing a bit more later in the season.

But yeah, it will be very interesting and stressful to see what those two guards will decide to do.

[CDu]

I know we've had this conversation before, but I still strongly believe it was 100% the arrival of Theo John. Or at least that was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's spinal column.

Yeah, it's possible. We'll just never know how much the John decision was the driving force, the straw that broke the camel's back, or a just a symptom of the staff knowing or having a feeling that Coleman planning on leaving already.

[azzefkram]

I hope so, although it is worth noting that both Brakefield and Coleman did play as freshmen. Brakefield averaged double-digit minutes, and Coleman at least played in most of the games and started playing a bit more later in the season.

But yeah, it will be very interesting and stressful to see what those two guards will decide to do.

Does Schutt profile as a player who could fake the SF position for stretches? If so, wouldn't that give him a path toward playing time?

[CDu]

Does Schutt profile as a player who could fake the SF position for stretches? If so, wouldn't that give him a path toward playing time?

Any bigger guard can play SF at the college level. The problem is that not only do we have a potential glut of guards, but we also have a potential glut of PFs. Mgbako, Stewart, and Power are coming in, and there's no guarantee that both of Flip and Mitchell will go pro. I'd expect at least one to go pro, quite possibly both. But if either stays, then that will push some of the PFs to SF, and some to C.

It's a crowded rotation with a bunch of top-tier recruits.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, it's possible. We'll just never know how much the John decision was the driving force, the straw that broke the camel's back, or a just a symptom of the staff knowing or having a feeling that Coleman planning on leaving already.

Can we talk about Theo John for a moment? I don't know exactly what the Duke staff had in mind for his role, but I LOVED him in our uniform. He wasn't the most talented guy on the floor, but it seemed like he was a real leader, and really embraced his role. I saw a game in Cameron and I think he was not playing due to back issues, but he was incredibly vocal on the bench and encouraging his teammates. He lent a veteran presence to that squad and was not shy on the court.

I don't know how you can identify players like him, but he seemed an ideal piece last season.

[azzefkram]

Any bigger guard can play SF at the college level. The problem is that not only do we have a potential glut of guards, but we also have a potential glut of PFs. Mgbako, Stewart, and Power are coming in, and there's no guarantee that both of Flip and Mitchell will go pro. I'd expect at least one to go pro, quite possibly both. But if either stays, then that will push some of the PFs to SF, and some to C.

It's a crowded rotation with a bunch of top-tier recruits.

It seems like Mitchell is the important domino. If he goes, isn't Mgbako really the only one who profiles as SF-ish? My impression was that Stewart and Power were more in the PF-C camp.

[MChambers]

It seems like Mitchell is the important domino. If he goes, isn't Mgbako really the only one who profiles as SF-ish? My impression was that Stewart and Power were more in the PF-C camp.

From what I've read, Power is pretty much a "3", or SF (if Duke played positions, which, of course, it doesn't).

[jipops]

From what I've read, Power is pretty much a "3", or SF (if Duke played positions, which, of course, it doesn't).

Except when it does.

And TJ does project as a PF.
https://247sports.com/player/tj-power-46103238/
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/b...43435/tj-power

[dm9e24]

Can we talk about Theo John for a moment? I don't know exactly what the Duke staff had in mind for his role, but I LOVED him in our uniform. He wasn't the most talented guy on the floor, but it seemed like he was a real leader, and really embraced his role. I saw a game in Cameron and I think he was not playing due to back issues, but he was incredibly vocal on the bench and encouraging his teammates. He lent a veteran presence to that squad and was not shy on the court.

I don't know how you can identify players like him, but he seemed an ideal piece last season.

I think we did. His name is Ryan Young.

Powers is a 3/4. Good handle, good passer and his 3 point shooting this summer elevated him to 5 star status.

[CDu]

It seems like Mitchell is the important domino. If he goes, isn't Mgbako really the only one who profiles as SF-ish? My impression was that Stewart and Power were more in the PF-C camp.

Mgbako and Powers are both PF/SF types. Both better suited to play PF than SF at the college level. But both capable of playing down if need be.

[azzefkram]

Mgbako and Powers are both PF/SF types. Both better suited to play PF than SF at the college level. But both capable of playing down if need be.

Ahh. I can see where the heightened concern for Schutt comes from. Fudge.

[MChambers]

Except when it does.

And TJ does project as a PF.
https://247sports.com/player/tj-power-46103238/
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/b...43435/tj-power

Really thought I read that TJ was more of a perimeter player, but the links you've provided say otherwise. Thanks.

But I still think Duke doesn't have positions!

[brevity]

Flipped to the Michigan-Northwestern game to hear the unlikely words “And Joey Baker completes the 4-point play”. He is 5-for-6 and has tied his season high with 14 points, and there are still nearly 8 minutes to play.

One announcer said, “Joey Baker getting ready for the Duke-North Carolina game? What is going on?”

[kako]

I don't think Keenan is playing basketball this season anywhere...it's possible I'm mistaken but that's what it appears.

I was wondering about this again. Just did a Google search and found absolutely nothing.

Why would a guy decide to transfer if he had nowhere to go? I don't think Worthington staying would have affected much this season, but it's still a question. What happened?

9F

[johnb]

I would make that trade every day and twice on Sunday. Quality players staying multiple years and mixing with OAD is what many seem to be clamoring for. Henry would add not just experience to this year's team, but Duke experience.

This is an excellent example since, by all accounts, Henry Coleman was (and presumably still is) a particularly great guy. The consensus on the board was that his transfer would be a genuine loss, particularly in the locker room. But would I rather have him or Ryan Young, whose experience had been in a different uniform?

HC may have decided to transfer for any of a dozen reasons, or a combination of reasons, but let’s simplify it to PT. As a 4 star recruit to Duke (and KY, but maybe nowhere else), he should have known he’d be competing for minutes with 5 star recruits. At Duke, that generally means that serious rotation time won’t happen for a couple of years, if ever. Again, maybe he just wanted to be an Aggie or he loves the weather in College Station, or maybe he wanted to be on a team in which everybody else was a 3 or 4 star, and he could be one of the more talented guys.

It’d be a variation of what a Duke coach might tell a 4 star defensive lineman who is deciding between Duke and A&M: “A&M is two deep on the DL with 5 star recruits; I should know since I recruited them. Become an Aggie and get buried on the bench. Come to Duke, and you’ll likely be in the rotation within a year, which means not only an opportunity to play but to be a focus of excellent coaching.” Irl, maybe our coaches don’t compare Duke to other places, but that would likely be somewhere on the table.

It’s not unreasonable, or maybe Coleman was persuaded by something else. Regardless, he chose to leave, which kinda means he’s not a Duke guy anymore.

Ryan Young, otoh, signed to play on a team where he’d be competing for minutes. He knew that Flip and Lively would be taller and more athletic, and that Mitchell would also be able to play inside against college teams (Mitchell’s taller than Miami’s tallest starter, and their team is not bad (too soon?). Ryan’s become invaluable for this team, but he might easily have been a 5 minute/game substitute if things had played out differently.

So, do I want the guy who took an educated gamble on Duke or the guy who transferred after a year? Duke experience is a good thing, but Duke enthusiasm is at least as important.

[accfanfrom1970]

I would make that trade every day and twice on Sunday. Quality players staying multiple years and mixing with OAD is what many seem to be clamoring for. Henry would add not just experience to this year's team, but Duke experience.

For what it's worth Henry is averaging 10 points and 6 rebounds in 26 minutes a game. I don't see him getting 26 minutes a game here?

[CDu]

This is an excellent example since, by all accounts, Henry Coleman was (and presumably still is) a particularly great guy. The consensus on the board was that his transfer would be a genuine loss, particularly in the locker room. But would I rather have him or Ryan Young, whose experience had been in a different uniform?

HC may have decided to transfer for any of a dozen reasons, or a combination of reasons, but let’s simplify it to PT. As a 4 star recruit to Duke (and KY, but maybe nowhere else), he should have known he’d be competing for minutes with 5 star recruits. At Duke, that generally means that serious rotation time won’t happen for a couple of years, if ever. Again, maybe he just wanted to be an Aggie or he loves the weather in College Station, or maybe he wanted to be on a team in which everybody else was a 3 or 4 star, and he could be one of the more talented guys.

It’d be a variation of what a Duke coach might tell a 4 star defensive lineman who is deciding between Duke and A&M: “A&M is two deep on the DL with 5 star recruits; I should know since I recruited them. Become an Aggie and get buried on the bench. Come to Duke, and you’ll likely be in the rotation within a year, which means not only an opportunity to play but to be a focus of excellent coaching.” Irl, maybe our coaches don’t compare Duke to other places, but that would likely be somewhere on the table.

It’s not unreasonable, or maybe Coleman was persuaded by something else. Regardless, he chose to leave, which kinda means he’s not a Duke guy anymore.

Ryan Young, otoh, signed to play on a team where he’d be competing for minutes. He knew that Flip and Lively would be taller and more athletic, and that Mitchell would also be able to play inside against college teams (Mitchell’s taller than Miami’s tallest starter, and their team is not bad (too soon?). Ryan’s become invaluable for this team, but he might easily have been a 5 minute/game substitute if things had played out differently.

So, do I want the guy who took an educated gamble on Duke or the guy who transferred after a year? Duke experience is a good thing, but Duke enthusiasm is at least as important.

I agree with your point here, but probably worth mentioning that Young and Coleman were never competing options. It was Theo John who theoretically replaced Coleman.

But in reality, we can't know if it was John pushing Coleman out or John replacing Coleman who had one foot out the door already. As you note, he wasn't going to play more than 10-15 mpg last year (and that's assuming Duke would play him at the 5), and the expectation would have been another 10-15 mpg role this year as Duke was surely going to add 5-star recruits. So it's possible he was already making clear his uncertainty about staying, which would have pushed Duke to find a replacement. It's also possible that Duke told him they needed a C and that he'd be the backup PF, and he decided to leave. We'll never know.

But the point is a good one that, for whatever reason, Coleman wasn't willing to be a backup again as a sophomore, and as such decided to go elsewhwere. Whereas Young (and John before him) CHOSE to be a backup at Duke.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I was wondering about this again. Just did a Google search and found absolutely nothing.

Why would a guy decide to transfer if he had nowhere to go? I don't think Worthington staying would have affected much this season, but it's still a question. What happened?

9F

I am still trying to figure out where he went and how he completely dropped off the grid. I have asked some people who I thought might have some inside info and have gotten nothing. He has a pretty unique name so one would think he would turn up on Google. I had heard rumors he was doing something similar to Savarino (grad school and playing at a lower level school) but then he would be on a roster and I don't think he is unless he changed his name.

That being said, Duke basketball is a huge commitment. It is obviously a dream for all of us. But at some point, there might be a sense of "been there, done that" and he might have been ready to move on. I'm just curious where he moved on to.

[azzefkram]

This is an excellent example since, by all accounts, Henry Coleman was (and presumably still is) a particularly great guy. The consensus on the board was that his transfer would be a genuine loss, particularly in the locker room. But would I rather have him or Ryan Young, whose experience had been in a different uniform?

HC may have decided to transfer for any of a dozen reasons, or a combination of reasons, but let’s simplify it to PT. As a 4 star recruit to Duke (and KY, but maybe nowhere else), he should have known he’d be competing for minutes with 5 star recruits. At Duke, that generally means that serious rotation time won’t happen for a couple of years, if ever. Again, maybe he just wanted to be an Aggie or he loves the weather in College Station, or maybe he wanted to be on a team in which everybody else was a 3 or 4 star, and he could be one of the more talented guys.

It’d be a variation of what a Duke coach might tell a 4 star defensive lineman who is deciding between Duke and A&M: “A&M is two deep on the DL with 5 star recruits; I should know since I recruited them. Become an Aggie and get buried on the bench. Come to Duke, and you’ll likely be in the rotation within a year, which means not only an opportunity to play but to be a focus of excellent coaching.” Irl, maybe our coaches don’t compare Duke to other places, but that would likely be somewhere on the table.

It’s not unreasonable, or maybe Coleman was persuaded by something else. Regardless, he chose to leave, which kinda means he’s not a Duke guy anymore.

Ryan Young, otoh, signed to play on a team where he’d be competing for minutes. He knew that Flip and Lively would be taller and more athletic, and that Mitchell would also be able to play inside against college teams (Mitchell’s taller than Miami’s tallest starter, and their team is not bad (too soon?). Ryan’s become invaluable for this team, but he might easily have been a 5 minute/game substitute if things had played out differently.

So, do I want the guy who took an educated gamble on Duke or the guy who transferred after a year? Duke experience is a good thing, but Duke enthusiasm is at least as important.

Without knowing the players personally, I don't see how anyone can make a statement as to said players' Duke enthusiasm. As for PT, Henry was looking at going from a (lightly used) backup as a freshman to a backup's backup as a sophomore. That's a huge ask. I have no idea if Henry was already considering leaving or if Theo coming pushed him out the door, but the timing is a tad suspicious. Do you think Ryan decides to compete for minutes if Dereck, Flip, and Henry are at Duke?

For what it's worth Henry is averaging 10 points and 6 rebounds in 26 minutes a game. I don't see him getting 26 minutes a game here?

I could easily see a junior Henry getting 20+ minutes a game here, given that he is playing 26 on an arguably better team.

I agree with your point here, but probably worth mentioning that Young and Coleman were never competing options. It was Theo John who theoretically replaced Coleman.

But in reality, we can't know if it was John pushing Coleman out or John replacing Coleman who had one foot out the door already. As you note, he wasn't going to play more than 10-15 mpg last year (and that's assuming Duke would play him at the 5), and the expectation would have been another 10-15 mpg role this year as Duke was surely going to add 5-star recruits. So it's possible he was already making clear his uncertainty about staying, which would have pushed Duke to find a replacement. It's also possible that Duke told him they needed a C and that he'd be the backup PF, and he decided to leave. We'll never know.

But the point is a good one that, for whatever reason, Coleman wasn't willing to be a backup again as a sophomore, and as such decided to go elsewhwere. Whereas Young (and John before him) CHOSE to be a backup at Duke.

Coleman wasn't willing to be a backup's backup as a sophomore. Again, a huge ask. Also, it is highly suspect to assume that Young would choose to be a backup's backup at Duke (which is what he would have been if Henry was still on the roster).