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  1. #301
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I used to work with somebody who previously had worked for the Finance Department for the PGA. He said that job drove him crazy because the PGA wasn't actually trying to maximize revenues/reduce expenses like a "typical business" and didn't really care if they made money -- they just wanted to be the organizing body and were complacent if the tour was popular and the tournaments made money for those organizers. Mind you, this was 10+ years ago so maybe things have changed or he didn't have real insights, but I still found the comments interesting. But when you have another entity with unlimited funding that cares even LESS about making money, certainly that is a form of major disruption to your industry.

    I knew a borderline professional tennis player who salivated over the PGA purses for borderline guys...in tennis, you get bupkus and have much higher travel expenses given tournaments are more widespread around the world. But maybe there's more revenue generated by golf tournaments than tennis, I do not know.
    Word on the street is that made a lot more money than they let on.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Sounds like a good plan for their nonprofit organization.
    Ah, is it a non-profit? Doesn't stop hospitals from raking in the $$$!! (And paying their CEOs huge sums...) But I digress...(Yes, a non-profit certainly should have different financial objectives of course.) And I recognize there are legal differences between "non-profit", "not-for-profit" etc. The NFL front office is also a non-profit but people don't really view it that way and certainly their mission is to maximize revenues for the league at large even if that single entity doesn't earn a profit.
    Last edited by Bluedog; 06-07-2023 at 02:58 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    They are in league with Al Khorayef Group, which is a Saudi company, and have been since, I think, 2016 or so.
    Lord knows I’ve tried to be an absolutist about these type of things but it’s near impossible. People are going to make their own choices and that’s fine. I believe there is a difference between directly supporting a regime (even by proxy) and criticizing a company that’s selling it farm equipment to feed people. (Side note: John Deere does a lot of things that are worse.) My EPL team’s kit is sponsored by a Saudi company. It’s the only one I’ve never owned because of that. The PGA turned down a tournament sponsorship from Raytheon a couple weeks ago because they of a Saudi missile deal. Now they are cutting out the middle man and directing taking the Saudi cash. For me that’s hypocrisy of the greatest order. I’m done with them and this is from someone that grow up playing and watching golf. It’s not going to matter to them or in the long run but it matters to me.

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    North of Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie View Post
    Pro sports has had a long line of very poor commissioners. Add Bud Selig; maybe the worst.
    Selig wasn't a good commissioner for baseball, but I find Goodell and Monahan to be worse simply because they seem to be worse human beings. Or not human beings at all. Just polished men of a certain age and demographic who only desire more money. Goodell's a yes man who got his job because his Dad was a Senator. It's not exactly an inspiring success story.

    Selig was more overwhelmed, IMO, by issues that baseball still really hasn't figured out how to address -- steroids, primarily. Pushing for the wild card and setting the table for unifying the rules between the AL and the NL were actually -- it appears -- in the long term interest of the game. Goodell has taken similar steps -- although I don't know that it's the same long term good for the NFL. He's been more effective, I guess, in addressing the NFL's gorilla in the corner -- CTE -- but he's not really addressed it in any meaningful way. People just hold their figurative noses and watch anyway. But he's kept the cash register ringing. Monahan's got nothing to hang his hat on other than this deal. So he'll probably go down as worse than any of these guys.

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Am I correct in assuming that sand traps are about to get much much larger? (I agree about Monahan, he and Goodell are just a pair of sock puppets).

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Am I correct in assuming that sand traps are about to get much much larger? (I agree about Monahan, he and Goodell are just a pair of sock puppets).
    I don't know. Goodell is basically the handsomely paid shield/errand boy/fall guy for the owners. Monahan by making this big move by creating a global golf company and making himself CEO is showing a lot more scheming and ambition. If Goodell somehow moves NFL assets out of the owners' hands and into his own, then he can reach Monahan status.

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    I don't know. Goodell is basically the handsomely paid shield/errand boy/fall guy for the owners. Monahan by making this big move by creating a global golf company and making himself CEO is showing a lot more scheming and ambition. If Goodell somehow moves NFL assets out of the owners' hands and into his own, then he can reach Monahan status.
    Monahan makes a pittance compared to Goodell, so he has some catching up to do...they are cut from the same cloth...

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Monahan makes a pittance compared to Goodell, so he has some catching up to do...they are cut from the same cloth...
    Do we know he didn't just make Phil money as part of this deal?

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    I believe there is a difference between directly supporting a regime (even by proxy) and criticizing a company that’s selling it farm equipment to feed people...Now they are cutting out the middle man and directing taking the Saudi cash. For me that’s hypocrisy of the greatest order. I’m done with them and this is from someone that grow up playing and watching golf. It’s not going to matter to them or in the long run but it matters to me.
    Thank you, and seconded.

    Some have tried to whatabout the moral questions here from the beginning, but individuals buying gas for their car or generally doing business in China or whatever is fundamentally not equivalent to directly taking money from MBS in order to do entertainment and publicity work for him. If those are equally "bad" then we may as well all just go live in caves and start hunting-gathering again so we can avoid every nasty entanglement that exists in a global economy. There is a spectrum. A sponsor company for some random golf tournament having business interests amounting to an insignificant portion of their overall enterprise in Saudi Arabia is not actually equivalent to the Saudi crown owning the sport.

    To dudog's question, if this goes through and ends up being what it seems to be in terms of structure and control, I'm out, too. I've been one of the vocal ones all along, and I'm not changing my moral compass just because it's easier to join 'em when you can't beat 'em. That saddens me. I love watching golf, and as my overall bandwidth for sports fandom has shrunk, it's been one of the few sports that's mostly maintained my attention. But you draw the line somewhere, and mine's been skipped over pretty easily here. I will do the same if a terrorist sponsoring, journalist murdering petrostate buys the Minnesota Twins.

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Thank you, and seconded.

    Some have tried to whatabout the moral questions here from the beginning, but individuals buying gas for their car or generally doing business in China or whatever is fundamentally not equivalent to directly taking money from MBS in order to do entertainment and publicity work for him. If those are equally "bad" then we may as well all just go live in caves and start hunting-gathering again so we can avoid every nasty entanglement that exists in a global economy. There is a spectrum. A sponsor company for some random golf tournament having business interests amounting to an insignificant portion of their overall enterprise in Saudi Arabia is not actually equivalent to the Saudi crown owning the sport.

    To dudog's question, if this goes through and ends up being what it seems to be in terms of structure and control, I'm out, too. I've been one of the vocal ones all along, and I'm not changing my moral compass just because it's easier to join 'em when you can't beat 'em. That saddens me. I love watching golf, and as my overall bandwidth for sports fandom has shrunk, it's been one of the few sports that's mostly maintained my attention. But you draw the line somewhere, and mine's been skipped over pretty easily here. I will do the same if a terrorist sponsoring, journalist murdering petrostate buys the Minnesota Twins.
    To each his own. When I was a kid, my father taught me that stealing a candy bar from 7-11 and robbing a bank were both of the same ilk. Is it worse to rob a bank than to steal a candy bar? It's the same act, just on a different scale. IMO, a person who believes that stealing is bad would condemn them both.

    Feel free to do what you want, but discontinuing watching golf tournaments isn't going to change anything other than what you do for a few hours on an occasional Sunday. If you really want to hurt the Saudi cause, divest yourself of every stock in your portfolio that deals with Saudis, completely stop using gasoline and other things sold here in America that come from Saudi Arabia, boycott everything and every company that takes money from Saudis. If it matters to you, do something that matters; something that if enough people did it would actually hurt them. Not watching a golf tournament doesn't and won't change anything, ever.

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    To each his own. When I was a kid, my father taught me that stealing a candy bar from 7-11 and robbing a bank were both of the same ilk. Is it worse to rob a bank than to steal a candy bar? It's the same act, just on a different scale. IMO, a person who believes that stealing is bad would condemn them both.

    Feel free to do what you want, but discontinuing watching golf tournaments isn't going to change anything other than what you do for a few hours on an occasional Sunday. If you really want to hurt the Saudi cause, divest yourself of every stock in your portfolio that deals with Saudis, completely stop using gasoline and other things sold here in America that come from Saudi Arabia, boycott everything and every company that takes money from Saudis. If it matters to you, do something that matters; something that if enough people did it would actually hurt them. Not watching a golf tournament doesn't and won't change anything, ever.
    I don't think Mal is looking to change the world. Sheesh.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    I don't think Mal is looking to change the world. Sheesh.
    What is he looking to do, then? I just don't understand.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    If it matters to you, do something that matters; something that if enough people did it would actually hurt them. Not watching a golf tournament doesn't and won't change anything, ever.
    If people stop watching PGA events, it will change things. That's the point. Will boycotting be a fruitless endeavor? Probably. As Roman showed, it's easier to entertain the masses than feed them.

    We are not just talking about golf though. This is the start. It's just another beachhead in a long, systematic sportswashing campaign. They started with golf, then moved to the EPL (Newcastle). They bring (or try to bring) the biggest international stars (Ronoldo & Messi) to play in their domestic leagues. They hire brand ambassadors (Messi & Beckham). They have F1 (Aston Martin sponsor), and boxing. They are going after the Indian IPL league (cricket) with a competing league promised more money. (Sound familiar?) The WWE /UFC is still on their radar. The NBA and the NFL will be next. After that what's next? Maybe college football? It's all part of the plan to normalize and sanitize the country's image.

    I would love to be Inspector Javert in all think. I really, really would. I have tried. A morally black and white world is easy. It's also impossible so I bend where I have to and standup where I can. The alternative is the fate of Javert.

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeDude View Post
    Do we know he didn't just make Phil money as part of this deal?
    I have no doubt that he was robustly compensated...

  15. #315
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    To each his own. When I was a kid, my father taught me that stealing a candy bar from 7-11 and robbing a bank were both of the same ilk. Is it worse to rob a bank than to steal a candy bar? It's the same act, just on a different scale. IMO, a person who believes that stealing is bad would condemn them both.

    Feel free to do what you want, but discontinuing watching golf tournaments isn't going to change anything other than what you do for a few hours on an occasional Sunday. If you really want to hurt the Saudi cause, divest yourself of every stock in your portfolio that deals with Saudis, completely stop using gasoline and other things sold here in America that come from Saudi Arabia, boycott everything and every company that takes money from Saudis. If it matters to you, do something that matters; something that if enough people did it would actually hurt them. Not watching a golf tournament doesn't and won't change anything, ever.
    I find it odd to deny a middle ground. For starters, completely stopping gasoline consumption is a) essentially impossible for most people living in the U.S. today, and b) a severe over-reaction, since not all oil comes from Saudi Arabia, and the particular gas I buy doesn't say what the source is so I can't tell which gas is made from Saudi oil and which is not. Some electricity sold by my power company comes from oil, too, and there's a good chance that at least some of that oil comes from Saudi Arabia, but there's also no way to tell which electrons are which (and to make matters worse, the composition is likely different on different days). Does that mean I need to unhook from the grid, too? Can I use other people's electricity? Can I go get an MRI? Can you even look at a computer screen under those kinds of restrictions? Part of it is plastic which comes from oil. I don't see how an absolutist response is worthy of consideration. Essentially every rational response to this problem has to have lines drawn somewhere.

    Not watching a golf tournament won't do a lot, that's true. But it will do something: It will affect the profitability of the enterprise, since if nobody watches the sport, it won't be profitable to operate. You may not agree that it is enough to be worth considering, but surely you would concede that someone else could reach a reasonable conclusion that it does? Also, failing to view a golf enterprise does not exclude also making other responses, so I'm not sure what your point is.

    I usually really respect your posts, but this one has me mystified.

  16. #316
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    What is he looking to do, then? I just don't understand.
    I shouldn't speak for Mal, but he's allowed to make his own choices for his own reasons, as are you.

    It's been posted here before, but 'If you don't like the Saudis, don't buy gas' is one of the lamest things I've ever seen around here. Why not say 'Don't buy anything with plastic' either? They're virtually all petroleum based. While we're at it, 'JUST STOP EATING!'. Fertilizers are petroleum based.

    I can't believe it's necessary to state that there is a difference between the necessities of living your life in the modern world and being a sports fan (I was so tempted to write athletic supporter). For pete's sake.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  17. #317
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    The US is a net exporter of petroleum products per the Dept. of Energy.

    The 9/11 attack was conducted by Saudi nationals, organized by Osama, with no support from any government in the Arab world.

    That said, MBS, the de facto leader of the Saudi kingdom has carried out evil acts and outright blunders, shoeing and shows no signs of reversing course.

    I am taking a wait-and-see attitude about the PGA-LIV-DP Tour merger. This is in terms of MBS/Saudi participation and control and in the rewards to loyal PGA players who stayed and penalties to those who cashed in with LIV.
    Last edited by sagegrouse; 06-08-2023 at 08:10 AM.

  18. #318
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Thank you, and seconded.

    Some have tried to whatabout the moral questions here from the beginning, but individuals buying gas for their car or generally doing business in China or whatever is fundamentally not equivalent to directly taking money from MBS in order to do entertainment and publicity work for him. If those are equally "bad" then we may as well all just go live in caves and start hunting-gathering again so we can avoid every nasty entanglement that exists in a global economy. There is a spectrum. A sponsor company for some random golf tournament having business interests amounting to an insignificant portion of their overall enterprise in Saudi Arabia is not actually equivalent to the Saudi crown owning the sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    What is he looking to do, then? I just don't understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    It's been posted here before, but 'If you don't like the Saudis, don't buy gas' is one of the lamest things I've ever seen around here. Why not say 'Don't buy anything with plastic' either? They're virtually all petroleum based. While we're at it, 'JUST STOP EATING!'. Fertilizers are petroleum based.

    I can't believe it's necessary to state that there is a difference between the necessities of living your life in the modern world and being a sports fan (I was so tempted to write athletic supporter). For pete's sake.
    It seems to me that rsv may have skipped the part in Mal's post that he specifically brought this up.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  19. #319
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    I find it odd to deny a middle ground. For starters, completely stopping gasoline consumption is a) essentially impossible for most people living in the U.S. today, and b) a severe over-reaction, since not all oil comes from Saudi Arabia, and the particular gas I buy doesn't say what the source is so I can't tell which gas is made from Saudi oil and which is not. Some electricity sold by my power company comes from oil, too, and there's a good chance that at least some of that oil comes from Saudi Arabia, but there's also no way to tell which electrons are which (and to make matters worse, the composition is likely different on different days). Does that mean I need to unhook from the grid, too? Can I use other people's electricity? Can I go get an MRI? Can you even look at a computer screen under those kinds of restrictions? Part of it is plastic which comes from oil. I don't see how an absolutist response is worthy of consideration. Essentially every rational response to this problem has to have lines drawn somewhere.

    Not watching a golf tournament won't do a lot, that's true. But it will do something: It will affect the profitability of the enterprise, since if nobody watches the sport, it won't be profitable to operate. You may not agree that it is enough to be worth considering, but surely you would concede that someone else could reach a reasonable conclusion that it does? Also, failing to view a golf enterprise does not exclude also making other responses, so I'm not sure what your point is.

    I usually really respect your posts, but this one has me mystified.
    A lot of good points here.

    When some NFL players were kneeling for the national anthem, there were a fair number of people that took the same tack; ie, 'I'm not watching the NFL anymore!' I personally know a guy that was a sure fan who hasn't watched a game since that controversy came to light. The thought process behind the boycott was the same: if people stop watching the product, advertising revenue will dry up, and it will hurt their bottom line.

    I understand the idea, but what actually happened was that revenues continued to soar. They make more money every year. In your post, you say that if everybody stops watching golf tournaments it won't be profitable. Of course that's true, but the thing is that people aren't going to do that, and so the sport will continue and it will continue to attract viewers, so the act of not watching will impact nobody's life except that of the person who chooses not to watch. It might impact their life in a positive way, for all I know. Maybe the time that would be spent watching golf could be spent learning a new language or reading great books, or exercising, or any of a number of other things that might enrich a life. But it's not going to have an effect on the PGA, much less on the Saudis.

    I realize I am talking out of both sides of my mouth here with, on the one hand, advocating for voting your conscience in an election, even if that means voting for a third-party candidate, but then saying, in this thread, that one's individual actions won't have any effect on anything.

    Sometimes we all get a little illogical. And some of the posts in this thread have convinced mw that my stance on this matter was a little pigheaded. Sometimes I enjoy playing devil's adcocarelamd stirring people up little, especially during the off-season. And I didn't really think things through with my prior posts.

    I apologize to Mal for being unnecessarily harsh. I certainly am not trying to usurp anyone's freedom to act and do as they will; if it really bothers somebody that the tours are merging, they should feel free to express their displeasure here, and also to stop watching pro golf as a form of protest.

    The world and global politics are complex issues and I have no business sticking my nose into somebody else's approach to this situation.

    Sorry to the whole board.

  20. #320
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    I understand the idea, but what actually happened was that revenues continued to soar. They make more money every year. In your post, you say that if everybody stops watching golf tournaments it won't be profitable. Of course that's true, but the thing is that people aren't going to do that, and so the sport will continue and it will continue to attract viewers, so the act of not watching will impact nobody's life except that of the person who chooses not to watch. It might impact their life in a positive way, for all I know. Maybe the time that would be spent watching golf could be spent learning a new language or reading great books, or exercising, or any of a number of other things that might enrich a life. But it's not going to have an effect on the PGA, much less on the Saudis.
    Good post, and it being conciliatory is appreciated. Sometimes one's boycott is more than just about hurting the bottom line of a company, it's about one's personal morals. There are a couple of companies (not naming names) doing just fine without my business today that I refuse to buy from, and in fact, since I've taken my stance with them (going on years now), they've likely made even more money annually than when I started.
    But I feel personally better for not being party to their underlying ethics that made me take my position in the first place.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

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