2022-2023 PGA Tour Season

[Mal]

I agree that the team model that LIV is trying to sell seems to fall flat. Mickelson (or somebody from LIV) was suggesting that all the LIV golfers at the Masters would be at the final hole if an LIV golfer was in line to win it, and what a great sight that would be. All I could think is how unmoving it would be to see a celebration from a bunch of golfers whose common bond is 8- to 9-figure recruitment fees. Any team concept within LIV seems doomed to be overshadowed by that perception.

Good point. Presumably some portion of the psychology that values a carload of cash higher than the legacy impact and ethical considerations of jumping to LIV is some kind of "me above we," right? That does make it difficult to believe Dustin Johnson's all about loyalty and team now. Also worth noting that with the exception of Patrick Reed, unless I'm missing someone, all the American defectors have middling to crappy Ryder Cup histories, too, despite their talents and individual accomplishments. Makes it even harder to imagine they're really into the whole 4-person teams with ugly logo gear and stupid names thing.

A few related LIV at the Masters notes:

- maybe confirmation bias, but it seemed pretty clear to me that the CBS crew definitely preferred to see a PGA Tour player win
- imagine if Phil Mickelson had made that putt at 18 on Sunday to become the clubhouse leader 2 years ago, and compare that to the polite, subdued response from the crowd this last weekend. He's immolated his popularity. I was surprised not to hear cheers every time Koepka sprayed one into the woods, too
- it was jarring to see Koepka revert to the mean so hard. 4-5 years ago, you just expected him to put it in dominator mode and fire dart after dart when he got into winning position in a Major, but he just completely folded here. To the point where I wonder if he wouldn't have been better off without the advantage of a clean first 36 holes from the late Thurs/early Fri tee times. He may have done better without a 4 shot lead.

[elvis14]

Good point. Presumably some portion of the psychology that values a carload of cash higher than the legacy impact and ethical considerations of jumping to LIV is some kind of "me above we," right? That does make it difficult to believe Dustin Johnson's all about loyalty and team now. Also worth noting that with the exception of Patrick Reed, unless I'm missing someone, all the American defectors have middling to crappy Ryder Cup histories, too, despite their talents and individual accomplishments. Makes it even harder to imagine they're really into the whole 4-person teams with ugly logo gear and stupid names thing.

A few related LIV at the Masters notes:

- maybe confirmation bias, but it seemed pretty clear to me that the CBS crew definitely preferred to see a PGA Tour player win
- imagine if Phil Mickelson had made that putt at 18 on Sunday to become the clubhouse leader 2 years ago, and compare that to the polite, subdued response from the crowd this last weekend. He's immolated his popularity. I was surprised not to hear cheers every time Koepka sprayed one into the woods, too
- it was jarring to see Koepka revert to the mean so hard. 4-5 years ago, you just expected him to put it in dominator mode and fire dart after dart when he got into winning position in a Major, but he just completely folded here. To the point where I wonder if he wouldn't have been better off without the advantage of a clean first 36 holes from the late Thurs/early Fri tee times. He may have done better without a 4 shot lead.

Brooks would have done better with 2 good knees and not having to play 1.5 rounds on Sunday.
When I read posts like Mal's above I get pushed hard to support LIV. Same for the PGA's hypocrisy.
Normally, I'd be all in on the PGA and down on the LIV but the way people are being manipulated makes me push against the manipulation and hope the LIV golfers have nothing but success.

Also, every PGA golfer is a "me above we" player except when the Ryder cup is played.

[CameronDuke]

Brooks would have done better with 2 good knees and not having to play 1.5 rounds on Sunday.
When I read posts like Mal's above I get pushed hard to support LIV. Same for the PGA's hypocrisy.
Normally, I'd be all in on the PGA and down on the LIV but the way people are being manipulated makes me push against the manipulation and hope the LIV golfers have nothing but success.

Also, every PGA golfer is a "me above we" player except when the Ryder cup is played.

But the PGA Tour’s gimmick or schtick isn’t playing off the teams concept trying to sell its product like LIV is doing. See the difference?

[dudog84]

Brooks would have done better with 2 good knees and not having to play 1.5 rounds on Sunday.
When I read posts like Mal's above I get pushed hard to support LIV. Same for the PGA's hypocrisy.
Normally, I'd be all in on the PGA and down on the LIV but the way people are being manipulated makes me push against the manipulation and hope the LIV golfers have nothing but success.

Also, every PGA golfer is a "me above we" player except when the Ryder cup is played.

Brooks was already collapsing before he played his 18th hole on Sunday.

[Kdogg]

I agree that the team model that LIV is trying to sell seems to fall flat. Mickelson (or somebody from LIV) was suggesting that all the LIV golfers at the Masters would be at the final hole if an LIV golfer was in line to win it, and what a great sight that would be. All I could think is how unmoving it would be to see a celebration from a bunch of golfers whose common bond is 8- to 9-figure recruitment fees. Any team concept within LIV seems doomed to be overshadowed by that perception.

That was Norman in exile from the Master's.

Good point. Presumably some portion of the psychology that values a carload of cash higher than the legacy impact and ethical considerations of jumping to LIV is some kind of "me above we," right? That does make it difficult to believe Dustin Johnson's all about loyalty and team now. Also worth noting that with the exception of Patrick Reed, unless I'm missing someone, all the American defectors have middling to crappy Ryder Cup histories, too, despite their talents and individual accomplishments. Makes it even harder to imagine they're really into the whole 4-person teams with ugly logo gear and stupid names thing.

One of my problems with the LIV defectors is their rhetoric. I'm sure it's from supplied talking points but when I hear guys like DJ or Watson say they want to "grow the game" and 'increase grass root efforts" I have to scream BS. I can say confidently, DJ does care about that. That's OK. I would have no problem with that. Just don't blow smoke up my arse. At least I can respect Harold Varner III because he's always been upfront that it's about the money. That's what LIV is about: money. And that's also fine if you are OK with where the money comes from.

When I read posts like Mal's above I get pushed hard to support LIV. Same for the PGA's hypocrisy.
Normally, I'd be all in on the PGA and down on the LIV but the way people are being manipulated makes me push against the manipulation and hope the LIV golfers have nothing but success.

Also, every PGA golfer is a "me above we" player except when the Ryder cup is played.

The Ryder Cup is run by the PGA of America not the PGA Tour. I was fortunate enough to live in an area where the PGA of America actively fostered junior golf. The local PGA would coordinate with the PGA Tour to bring a big name every year to talk to us kids. Both the PGA of American and the PGA Tour are involved with grass roots golf. That’s any other problem I have with LIV. It fosters nothing beyond itself.

[mkirsh]

That was Norman in exile from the Master's.



One of my problems with the LIV defectors is their rhetoric. I'm sure it's from supplied talking points but when I hear guys like DJ or Watson say they want to "grow the game" and 'increase grass root efforts" I have to scream BS. I can say confidently, DJ does care about that. That's OK. I would have no problem with that. Just don't blow smoke up my arse. At least I can respect Harold Varner III because he's always been upfront that it's about the money. That's what LIV is about: money. And that's also fine if you are OK with where the money comes from.



The Ryder Cup is run by the PGA of America not the PGA Tour. I was fortunate enough to live in an area where the PGA of America actively fostered junior golf. The local PGA would coordinate with the PGA Tour to bring a big name every year to talk to us kids. Both the PGA of American and the PGA Tour are involved with grass roots golf. That’s any other problem I have with LIV. It fosters nothing beyond itself.

I'm not a LIV supporter at all, but in their view when they say "grow the game" they are thinking globally. Many of the other world tours are upset at the PGA tour as it has gobbled up all the good players, and, with a virtually year-round schedule, has sucked all the oxygen out of other tours. That is why many of the European and Australian players that have defected to LIV have extra hostility as their "home" tours are struggling and have been relegated to minor league status. And LIV hosts events around the globe and is trying to bolster the Asian tour. Now it is hypocritical to want more money but also be mad at a tour that consolidates talent to increase revenue and therefore purse size, but when LIV says "grow the game" its not the same local grass roots focus of the PGA and PGAT.

[rsvman]

Good point. Presumably some portion of the psychology that values a carload of cash higher than the legacy impact and ethical considerations of jumping to LIV is some kind of "me above we," right? That does make it difficult to believe Dustin Johnson's all about loyalty and team now. Also worth noting that with the exception of Patrick Reed, unless I'm missing someone, all the American defectors have middling to crappy Ryder Cup histories, too, despite their talents and individual accomplishments. Makes it even harder to imagine they're really into the whole 4-person teams with ugly logo gear and stupid names thing.

A few related LIV at the Masters notes:

- maybe confirmation bias, but it seemed pretty clear to me that the CBS crew definitely preferred to see a PGA Tour player win
- imagine if Phil Mickelson had made that putt at 18 on Sunday to become the clubhouse leader 2 years ago, and compare that to the polite, subdued response from the crowd this last weekend. He's immolated his popularity. I was surprised not to hear cheers every time Koepka sprayed one into the woods, too
- it was jarring to see Koepka revert to the mean so hard. 4-5 years ago, you just expected him to put it in dominator mode and fire dart after dart when he got into winning position in a Major, but he just completely folded here. To the point where I wonder if he wouldn't have been better off without the advantage of a clean first 36 holes from the late Thurs/early Fri tee times. He may have done better without a 4 shot lead.

Koepka was dominant a few times, but even before he went to LIV he had lost that killer instinct and several times played fair to middling on a Sunday when he was expected to win.

[Kdogg]

I'm not a LIV supporter at all, but in their view when they say "grow the game" they are thinking globally. Many of the other world tours are upset at the PGA tour as it has gobbled up all the good players, and, with a virtually year-round schedule, has sucked all the oxygen out of other tours. That is why many of the European and Australian players that have defected to LIV have extra hostility as their "home" tours are struggling and have been relegated to minor league status. And LIV hosts events around the globe and is trying to bolster the Asian tour. Now it is hypocritical to want more money but also be mad at a tour that consolidates talent to increase revenue and therefore purse size, but when LIV says "grow the game" its not the same local grass roots focus of the PGA and PGAT.

I do see your view but LIV events aren’t in areas where golf is growing. If LIV believes that it will increase the international TV viewership I would disagree. Most events are in the USA, then Europe, then Mexico and then one in Singapore, one in Australia and the final in Saudi Arabia. Where is the appeal for people to care? How do they except growth by their definition? I have no proof but I do think golf has the greatest ratio of people that watch and people that play the game than any other sport. How many of us on this thread play? Maybe tennis would be second? The point is if you don’t increase interest in the game at the base level people aren’t going to be engaged to care about the pro level. The PGA and PGAT has done and still does that. All events have a local charitable components and local meet and greets. The impact extends beyond the area. LIV doesn’t do that. They want to come and host their event, make some noise and move on. F1 can get away with this but I don’t think golf can. I had a front row seat to the decline of recreational golf through the last twenty years. It took a pandemic to reverse that in the US. If you don’t foster the game, do the pro-ams, contribute to the event’s community golf people won’t care.

[rsvman]

But the PGA Tour’s gimmick or schtick isn’t playing off the teams concept trying to sell its product like LIV is doing. See the difference?

The team idea isn't really working, but I can understand the thought behind it. It's pretty simple, really. By the last round of a tournament, there are sometimes only two to four golfers in contention. There are a lot of other players on the course, some of whom are ten or more strokes behind.

On the PGA tour, tv generally rest tsmto only showing the top three or four players, so there is a lot of down time in which we get to see Rahm eat a sandwich or listen to Speith's running commentary with his caddy about his club selection for five minutes. It's BORING.

LIV was trying to find a way to make the shots of golfers besides the top three have some meaning. Maybe a guy is ten shots back but the has a 15-foot putt that would put his team in first place. Suddenly, that putt has meaning, and therefore can me shown. That means less watching players eat or walk to the outhouse for a potty break. I'm 100% behind the idea of showing more shots and less bs.

The reason it hasn't really worked is that golf has always been an individual sport and it has been hard for the average guy to think about it in any other way.

But the thought of trying to make a few more players and a few more snots relevant was a good one. It just hasn't really panned out.

[Kdogg]

The team idea isn't really working, but I can understand the thought behind it. It's pretty simple, really. By the last round of a tournament, there are sometimes only two to four golfers in contention. There are a lot of other players on the course, some of whom are ten or more strokes behind.

On the PGA tour, tv generally rest tsmto only showing the top three or four players, so there is a lot of down time in which we get to see Rahm eat a sandwich or listen to Speith's running commentary with his caddy about his club selection for five minutes. It's BORING.

LIV was trying to find a way to make the shots of golfers besides the top three have some meaning. Maybe a guy is ten shots back but the has a 15-foot putt that would put his team in first place. Suddenly, that putt has meaning, and therefore can me shown. That means less watching players eat or walk to the outhouse for a potty break. I'm 100% behind the idea of showing more shots and less bs.

The reason it hasn't really worked is that golf has always been an individual sport and it has been hard for the average guy to think about it in any other way.

But the thought of trying to make a few more players and a few more snots relevant was a good one. It just hasn't really panned out.

I guess the F1 equivalent would be driver points (individual) and constructor points (team). It’s not a direct comp even though F1 is also an individual sport with a team component.

[CameronDuke]

$3,000,000 in bonus money will be coming off Rory McIlroy’s PIP total for the year after he chose to skip the RBC Heritage - which is an elevated event, a source tells Sports Illustrated

[Mal]

When I read posts like Mal's above I get pushed hard to support LIV. Same for the PGA's hypocrisy.
Normally, I'd be all in on the PGA and down on the LIV but the way people are being manipulated makes me push against the manipulation and hope the LIV golfers have nothing but success.

Why? You said the same sort of thing last fall when this was the topic. Your thoughts on the underlying sportswashing issue are different because of the way these guys are being criticized? Poor, poor Bryson, everybody's being mean to him so I'm going to be contrarian now and hope LIV succeeds just to cheese off his critics who I think are being too strident? I really hope that what a bunch of people on the internet think isn't a major factor in your stance on all this.

What manipulation? And what PGA hypocrisy are you referring to? If I'm guessing correctly on the latter, I'll respond in advance that there's a massive difference between living in the world of modern commerce, in which bad actors also live, and directly contracting with the Saudi royal family to take tens of millions of their dollars to be an ambassador of sport for them. Phil Mickelson himself indirectly acknowledged this in his leaked interview before the split. Buying golf clubs manufactured in China, or operating within a tour infrastructure that includes sponsorships from corporations who might not be angelic, is a far cry from signing on the dotted line across the table from MBS. IMHO.

[Jeffrey]

Watching the final round made me wonder… how can you drive your ball to a completely different fairway and not receive an out of bounds penalty? Even as a lame amateur, I’d be apologizing to the players actually playing the correct hole and consider myself out of bounds.

[CameronDuke]

Tiger Woods announced Wednesday that he has undergone another surgery on the right leg that was severely injured in his 2021 car accident.

Woods’ latest procedure was a fusion of the subtalar joint “to address his post-traumatic arthritis from his previous talus fracture,” according to a statement released on Woods’ Twitter account. The subtalar joint is located just below the ankle joint, between the talus bone and heel bone, according to footcaremd.org.

A subtalar fusion is “appropriate for diseased joints that can’t be replaced,” according to the site. “Once a fusion heals together, it acts as one unit and can restore function and provide significant pain relief.”

No timetable was given for Woods’ return. The surgery was performed by Dr. Martin O’Malley at HSS Sports Medicine in New York City. The statement said O’Malley declared the surgery a success.

Guidance from the Cleveland Clinic says 6-12 weeks until you can put any weight on the ankle after this type of surgery. Then it's walking in a boot. Then you do rehab.

I'd be shocked if he plays in any of the 3 remaining majors in 2023.

Get well soon Tiger!

https://www.pgatour.com/article/news...ters?webview=1

[sagegrouse]

Watching the final round made me wonder… how can you drive your ball to a completely different fairway and not receive an out of bounds penalty? Even as a lame amateur, I’d be apologizing to the players actually playing the correct hole and consider myself out of bounds.

Good question. "Out-of-bounds" markers set the limits of play. You can hit the ball almost anywhere and remain in play, as long as you remain on the course itself. Actually, in an adjacent fairway is often better than in the trees that divide the holes.

[cato]

Good question. "Out-of-bounds" markers set the limits of play. You can hit the ball almost anywhere and remain in play, as long as you remain on the course itself. Actually, in an adjacent fairway is often better than in the trees that divide the holes.

Indeed. My local course is Torrey Pines, but I don’t play there all that often because (a) you have to plan ahead to get a tee time, and (b) it’s too hard for my level of play.

That said, I end up scoring around the same at Torrey, which has quite a few adjacent holes laid out next to each towers, than an easier course that doesn’t have as many back and forth holes. Getting an iron shot from a clean lie in the adjacent fairway is *much* better than playing out of the rough with a poor angle.

[sagegrouse]

Indeed. My local course is Torrey Pines, but I don’t play there all that often because (a) you have to plan ahead to get a tee time, and (b) it’s too hard for my level of play.

That said, I end up scoring around the same at Torrey, which has quite a few adjacent holes laid out next to each towers, than an easier course that doesn’t have as many back and forth holes. Getting an iron shot from a clean lie in the adjacent fairway is *much* better than playing out of the rough with a poor angle.

Now, what is the wording on the signs at Torrey Pines that warn of rattlesnakes in the rough and beyond?

[rsvman]

Watching the final round made me wonder… how can you drive your ball to a completely different fairway and not receive an out of bounds penalty? Even as a lame amateur, I’d be apologizing to the players actually playing the correct hole and consider myself out of bounds.

"Out of bounds" is any place that is off the COURSE (not off the HOLE), and any other place arbitrarily designated as "out of bounds" by local rules and marked by white stakes.

ANY other place AT ALL (other than ground under repair or casual water or areas permanently or temporarily marked as a free drop) is "play it as it lies."



In other words, "out of bounds" is a construct, aside from literally being off the course itself, which is out of bounds in all localities.

[arnie]

Indeed. My local course is Torrey Pines, but I don’t play there all that often because (a) you have to plan ahead to get a tee time, and (b) it’s too hard for my level of play.

That said, I end up scoring around the same at Torrey, which has quite a few adjacent holes laid out next to each towers, than an easier course that doesn’t have as many back and forth holes. Getting an iron shot from a clean lie in the adjacent fairway is *much* better than playing out of the rough with a poor angle.

I don’t understand your 2nd paragraph. Why not hit the ball straight down the middle, slightly left of middle on doglegs to the right or slightly right of middle on doglegs to the left? Seems the best strategy on a tight course.😊

[dudog84]

Golf is a funny game.

S. Y. Noh, who hasn't had a top-10 in 6 years, just shot 60 at the Byron Nelson and currently leads the field by 5 shots. He must be playing on a tournament invitation, because he finished 186th in the FedEx Cup last year. Good for him, can he hold on?