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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    On the Road to Nowhere

    2022-2023 PGA Tour Season

    Heck, somebody had to do it. The '22 season is officially over.

    And there's news. The other Cam (Young, who will be Rookie of the Year) and Hideki are staying, both top-20 players. They were heavily rumored to be leaving. Just my take, but I believe it's the beginning of the end of LIV (which won't be anytime soon, but it will become a sideshow). It appears the Tiger meeting has had an impact.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...7oJ?li=BBnbfcL
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Heck, somebody had to do it. The '22 season is officially over.

    And there's news. The other Cam (Young, who will be Rookie of the Year) and Hideki are staying, both top-20 players. They were heavily rumored to be leaving. Just my take, but I believe it's the beginning of the end of LIV (which won't be anytime soon, but it will become a sideshow). It appears the Tiger meeting has had an impact.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...7oJ?li=BBnbfcL
    My guess is that the Tiger meeting had an impact because of negotiations between the players and the Tour over the course of the season. LIV made a stronger push than I thought they would, but I agree that the Tour seems to have charted the course to fend off the upstart.
    Carolina delenda est

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    The Tour has responded by upping the purses, planning some no-cut events, etc. Pressure from the LIV tour definitely changed the way the brass at the PGA think. Maybe in the long run, rather than ruining golf, as many people supposed, competition from the LIV Tour will end up producing a better PGA. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist... could be that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Really hoping fans can see Tiger compete in the 2022-2023 PGA Tour season outside the four majors, although if that’s all he plays due to the workload his body now allows, I will take that! Depending on his health, I think he may play in a few non-majors. I am thinking the Hero World Challenge in the Bahamas in December (I believe he is a host), maybe the Genesis Invitational at Riviera CC, the majors, and either The Players Championship at TPC Sawgrass or The Memorial at Muirfield Village. That would be ideal to me! But it will just depend on the workload his body can take and recovery, most notably his leg.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    The Tour has responded by upping the purses, planning some no-cut events, etc. Pressure from the LIV tour definitely changed the way the brass at the PGA think. Maybe in the long run, rather than ruining golf, as many people supposed, competition from the LIV Tour will end up producing a better PGA. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist... could be that.
    Optimism is good.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    The Tour has responded by upping the purses, planning some no-cut events, etc. Pressure from the LIV tour definitely changed the way the brass at the PGA think. Maybe in the long run, rather than ruining golf, as many people supposed, competition from the LIV Tour will end up producing a better PGA. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist... could be that.
    Another way to look at the changes that the PGA is making is that's it's an admission that Phil and others were right about much of what they were complaining about. This is the positive side of the LIV tour, it's brining to light places the PGA can improve and forcing their hand.

    Interesting that Cam Young says he's staying but we are still seeing reports that Cam Smith is going LIV. Like it or hate it, it's made for interesting storyline.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Like it or hate it, it's made for interesting storyline.
    After the last several years, I've decided that "interesting storylines" are overrated.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    The Tour has responded by upping the purses, planning some no-cut events, etc. Pressure from the LIV tour definitely changed the way the brass at the PGA think. Maybe in the long run, rather than ruining golf, as many people supposed, competition from the LIV Tour will end up producing a better PGA. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist... could be that.
    It is the most important question - is the PGA product going to be better? I don't think it's a clear answer. Compared to LIV, the PGA has a much more limited set of resources, so they are moving furniture around in the house instead of buying a bigger place. And as such they are making trade-offs and there will be winners and losers. The Tour is making two big gambles in 1) concentrating talent at "elevated" events, and 2) getting more money in the hands of top players. However to determine if this makes the PGA better, you really need to ask "for whom"?

    In concentrating talent at "elevated" events, the winners are clearly the events (and their sponsors) that achieve this status, as they will get better fields and know who is going to be there in advance so they can market and promote the field. Non-elevated events are losers as it basically relegates them to Korn Ferry type fields. Maybe the tour rotates the "elevated" events on a schedule to lessen this blow, and maybe you could argue that this was happening anyway, but it widens the "haves" vs "have nots" of tournaments.

    Similarly, concentrating money to top players widens the "haves" vs "have nots" of players. It's likely a positive for the top players as they will earn more money through larger purses and larger PIP, although it comes with giving up a lot of control over their schedule. Definitely worse for the mid-tier players, as James Hahn's comments this week indicate. [Personally I think the mid tier players have been subsidized by the guys driving the eyeballs (no one is actually showing up/tuning in to watch James Hahn, so when he finishes ahead of Rory or JT or Rahm or Scheffler and makes more money in a week than they do he is benefitting from their presence) and this is an attempt to even things out.]

    And then there is the question of whether all of this is better for golf fans. There will certainly be better fields to watch on a more consistent basis, but there will be fewer quality events to watch during the year. Is that a net positive? For some it probably is, but for golf junkies maybe not. The PGA Tour is certainly betting that it will increase revenue as they are increasing purses and PIP money (unless you believe as the LIV guys do that the PGA tour has been sitting on billions already and not giving it to the players). I'm not sold on limited field or no cut events (WGCs have this and haven't been spectacular viewing) but I also don't think those details are finalized yet.

    What's clear to me is why the Tour didn't do any of this sooner - no matter what they do they have to upset some of their constituents, so it's much easier to stick with status quo unless they have to, even if status quo is leading to declining ratings and an aging audience. However with the threat of LIV poaching players the Tour had to act and live with the collateral damage. Time will tell if these moves are the right ones.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Another way to look at the changes that the PGA is making is that's it's an admission that Phil and others were right about much of what they were complaining about. This is the positive side of the LIV tour, it's brining to light places the PGA can improve and forcing their hand.

    Interesting that Cam Young says he's staying but we are still seeing reports that Cam Smith is going LIV. Like it or hate it, it's made for interesting storyline.
    Whether Phil was "right" is open to interpretation. Phil wants to earn more and play less, and the only way for the Tour to do that would be 1) find a new revenue source, 2) cut costs (developmental tour expenses, admin expenses, other) or 3) re-allocate $ between players. Did Phil have a suggestion other than saying the Tour is somehow sitting on $20B in reserves (which is provably false)? PGA Tour is doing a bit of everything, creating elevated fields and increasing PIP to get more money to top players (and likely away from mid tier players), and pushing sponsors that this will be a better product and they should pay more for. Will this actually result in a better product? Maybe, but not definitively. But they had to do this to compete with an irrational actor in LIV that doesn't have any of these constraints. Or, to put in another way, say the PIF has a change in leadership in the next two years and decides they no longer want to subsidize professional golf and LIV goes away - is what's left a better golf product for players, fans, and sponsors than what was there before? Probably yes for some and no for others, so I'm not sure the "Phil was right" argument is entirely accurate.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    In not-surprising-news, it's official. Cam Smith gone.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...Pa0?li=BBnbfcL
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    In not-surprising-news, it's official. Cam Smith gone.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...Pa0?li=BBnbfcL
    Smith, Neimann, and Leishman leaving for LIV deals a pretty big blow to the already struggling President's Cup

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    Smith, Neimann, and Leishman leaving for LIV deals a pretty big blow to the already struggling President's Cup
    Yes, the biggest impact will be on the President's Cup, which never had close to the interest of the Ryder Cup.

    Smith is the catch. Not just the talent and accomplishments, but the persona. Niemann is pretty good, but nobody's going to lose sleep over a Chilean golfer even fans don't really know, who's won twice in 4 years on the tour and has never had a top-20 in a major. But he's only 23, definitely a possible up-and-comer but now we'll never know. Leishman is a bit more well known, but is clearly on the downside of his career. He's almost 39 and has not won an individual event on the tour in over 2 years, and has almost as many cuts as finishes in majors in that span. He started the year 36 in the OWGR, and has fallen to 62 (not even worth a legit 2 points to you degenerates). I'm not sure he'd even qualify for any majors in the coming year.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    The Tour has responded by upping the purses, planning some no-cut events, etc. Pressure from the LIV tour definitely changed the way the brass at the PGA think. Maybe in the long run, rather than ruining golf, as many people supposed, competition from the LIV Tour will end up producing a better PGA. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist... could be that.
    So basically they are doing the very thing Phil talked about when LIV first started up. He was demonized by Rory and others, but the end result is EXACTLY what he was trying to accomplish. And yet he's the "bad" guy. Whatever...

    And before anyone jumps on their high horse, yes I get the part about the Saudi's and all that. It was a terribly worded statement from Phil at the beginning of all this. But he also said the primary reason he was supporting LIV was to get the PGA to budge and be willing to change a bit with the times. So Rory, Tiger and everyone else should be thanking Phil for the increase in pay they'll be receiving going forward.

    EDIT: Just noticed Elvis mentioned this already. Sorry for the repeat.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Yep. Kinda like 49ers QB John Brodie, who signed with Al Davis's Raiders of the then AFL, and resulted in the NFL-AFL merger. As a result of the merger agreement, Brodie had to go back to the 49ers -- but he kept the money.

    I don't think Phil will go back to the PGA Tour, but never say never about a merger down the road.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    After the last several years, I've decided that "interesting storylines" are overrated.
    I find they usually mean that they are all speculating.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Lefty has made $95M in purses alone. He supposedly made about $830M while on the PGA Tour. How much is enough?

    Here is what some guys made in the past season (endorsements excluded):

    Rory: $26M
    Scottie: $20M
    Xander: $11.5M
    Patrick: $11.5M
    Justin: $9.5M
    Aaron Wise made about $4.5M and didn't win a tournament.

    Not sure what all the complaints were about unless money was disappearing. If the money is there to pay them, fine. But I fear it will come out of the charitable contributions.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Lefty has made $95M in purses alone. He supposedly made about $830M while on the PGA Tour. How much is enough?

    Here is what some guys made in the past season (endorsements excluded):

    Rory: $26M
    Scottie: $20M
    Xander: $11.5M
    Patrick: $11.5M
    Justin: $9.5M
    Aaron Wise made about $4.5M and didn't win a tournament.

    Not sure what all the complaints were about unless money was disappearing. If the money is there to pay them, fine. But I fear it will come out of the charitable contributions.
    Good old fashioned American capitalistic economy greed!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    So basically they are doing the very thing Phil talked about when LIV first started up. He was demonized by Rory and others, but the end result is EXACTLY what he was trying to accomplish. And yet he's the "bad" guy. Whatever...

    And before anyone jumps on their high horse, yes I get the part about the Saudi's and all that. It was a terribly worded statement from Phil at the beginning of all this. But he also said the primary reason he was supporting LIV was to get the PGA to budge and be willing to change a bit with the times. So Rory, Tiger and everyone else should be thanking Phil for the increase in pay they'll be receiving going forward.

    EDIT: Just noticed Elvis mentioned this already. Sorry for the repeat.
    Another knock against the LIV Tour is they’re paying guys more to do less, though. That didn’t make much sense to Tiger. He believes in earning your bucks it seemed like to me. I do agree Phil’s pressure on the PGA Tour could in some ways feel like a win for him and LIV. They got Jay Monahan and the PGA Tour “dancing” so to speak - or in other words, got them moving to make adjustments. Ignoring that is Saudi blood money primarily being paid to LIV Golfers, it is still more money for doing less. And for winning tournaments that don’t have any history or legacies to them. For a tour that doesn’t have a television deal. Or as many current superstars as the PGA Tour does.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    Another knock against the LIV Tour is they’re paying guys more to do less, though. That didn’t make much sense to Tiger. He believes in earning your bucks it seemed like to me. I do agree Phil’s pressure on the PGA Tour could in some ways feel like a win for him and LIV. They got Jay Monahan and the PGA Tour “dancing” so to speak - or in other words, got them moving to make adjustments. Ignoring that is Saudi blood money primarily being paid to LIV Golfers, it is still more money for doing less. And for winning tournaments that don’t have any history or legacies to them. For a tour that doesn’t have a television deal. Or as many current superstars as the PGA Tour does.
    Gotcha. Tiger = Smart, Principled & Righteous. Phil = Dumb, Corrupt & Unrighteous.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    Gotcha. Tiger = Smart, Principled & Righteous. Phil = Dumb, Corrupt & Unrighteous.
    Lol, well we both know that isn’t what I said, but since you went there, we know where one of them has been trending recently and the opposite direction the other has been trending! Everyone has their issues, both of them included. But regarding the PGA Tour, Tiger has way more allegiance to it.

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