Remote Work - Long Term or Not

[SoCalDukeFan]

Last night I was discussing remote work with an exec who is convinced that his company is getting less out of its staff working from home. I have seen where some companies have instituted 3 days in the office protocols. I am trying to figure out if remote work is here to stay or not.

I personally had one career with a major company and an office. I then started a business with a partner and we worked out of our homes. I appreciated not spending time commuting and certainly at the start of our venture put in more hours than I would have if I was going to an office. While my partner and I talked several times a day on the phone I did miss more personal interactions. Since it was half my business I think I worked hard at it and did not cheat myself. I also know of one law firm that had recent record years with lawyers working from home and saving the office rent and another that has put in the "hotel" system for their lawyers. Basically work from home and reserve an office or conference room if you need. They plan to go from leasing three floors to one in their LA office.

However the exec I talked to is convinced that his people are not putting in the time.

I would say that fear of Covid for many is just an excuse. Restaurants in my area seem packed with non-mask wearing patrons.

Any thoughts.

SoCal

[Acymetric]

Last night I was discussing remote work with an exec who is convinced that his company is getting less out of its staff working from home. I have seen where some companies have instituted 3 days in the office protocols. I am trying to figure out if remote work is here to stay or not.

I personally had one career with a major company and an office. I then started a business with a partner and we worked out of our homes. I appreciated not spending time commuting and certainly at the start of our venture put in more hours than I would have if I was going to an office. While my partner and I talked several times a day on the phone I did miss more personal interactions. Since it was half my business I think I worked hard at it and did not cheat myself. I also know of one law firm that had recent record years with lawyers working from home and saving the office rent and another that has put in the "hotel" system for their lawyers. Basically work from home and reserve an office or conference room if you need. They plan to go from leasing three floors to one in their LA office.

However the exec I talked to is convinced that his people are not putting in the time.

I would say that fear of Covid for many is just an excuse. Restaurants in my area seem packed with non-mask wearing patrons.

Any thoughts.

SoCal

I think work from home is amazing. I was more productive working from home, was willing/able to work longer hours when needed without burning out, and arrived at the best place that I had been in physically and mentally in over a decade (more time to eat healthy, exercise, etc and I was going to bed at 9:30 half the time because I just ran out of stuff to do). I think it would be hard to start at a new company working from home, but that isn't insurmountable.

That said, there are absolutely people not putting in the time (and posting about it on social media, no less). I hate those people, because they're going to ruin it for the rest. I can also completely understand that some people are the opposite and can't be effective at home, and prefer to work in person (for a number of potential reasons).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Last night I was discussing remote work with an exec who is convinced that his company is getting less out of its staff working from home. I have seen where some companies have instituted 3 days in the office protocols. I am trying to figure out if remote work is here to stay or not.

I personally had one career with a major company and an office. I then started a business with a partner and we worked out of our homes. I appreciated not spending time commuting and certainly at the start of our venture put in more hours than I would have if I was going to an office. While my partner and I talked several times a day on the phone I did miss more personal interactions. Since it was half my business I think I worked hard at it and did not cheat myself. I also know of one law firm that had recent record years with lawyers working from home and saving the office rent and another that has put in the "hotel" system for their lawyers. Basically work from home and reserve an office or conference room if you need. They plan to go from leasing three floors to one in their LA office.

However the exec I talked to is convinced that his people are not putting in the time.

I would say that fear of Covid for many is just an excuse. Restaurants in my area seem packed with non-mask wearing patrons.

Any thoughts.

SoCal

I think it varies wildly. I worked from home about 13 years ago and I found I hated it. The only good thing was having my dog around. I found it difficult to communicate with my coworkers (the business was located hundreds of miles away) and I realized I really missed the social aspect of seeing coworkers, clients etc.

After 10 years of owning a retail location, I'm in the nonprofit industry doing a job I very much like, and we do a mix of working in office and at home.

I'm home 1.5-2 days week, and only have a few coworkers. The mix is nice. I've carved a nice little work place in the guest room and sort of put different tasks on those days that I know I can lean into.

So, it depends a lot on the type of work you are doing and your personality.

I'm not someone who believes in micromanaging, and I would suggest that your cohort who isn't getting as much out of his or her employees might not see much improvement on the job site.

Also, it's a great way to get laundry done during the week.

YMMV.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Last night I was discussing remote work with an exec who is convinced that his company is getting less out of its staff working from home. I have seen where some companies have instituted 3 days in the office protocols. I am trying to figure out if remote work is here to stay or not.

I personally had one career with a major company and an office. I then started a business with a partner and we worked out of our homes. I appreciated not spending time commuting and certainly at the start of our venture put in more hours than I would have if I was going to an office. While my partner and I talked several times a day on the phone I did miss more personal interactions. Since it was half my business I think I worked hard at it and did not cheat myself. I also know of one law firm that had recent record years with lawyers working from home and saving the office rent and another that has put in the "hotel" system for their lawyers. Basically work from home and reserve an office or conference room if you need. They plan to go from leasing three floors to one in their LA office.

However the exec I talked to is convinced that his people are not putting in the time.

I would say that fear of Covid for many is just an excuse. Restaurants in my area seem packed with non-mask wearing patrons.

Any thoughts.

SoCal

I have spent my whole career at very large companies. I thrive off of the human interaction of the office, and I find I get easily distracted at home, so I like going in at least occasionally. I am currently in a hybrid role where I am strongly encouraged to be in at least two, preferably three days a week. I have a fairly easy commute - my colleagues who have longer commutes grumble about this more.

I think that most DBR posters are probably 30+ and are relatively settled in their careers so remote work is easier. Though younger people are more tech savvy, I think that they have a lot to learn from working in person. I started my current role remotely in April, 2020. I found it very challenging to onboard remotely. Part of this was driven by the chaos of life at that time (I had two kids to manage in a small apartment, and my colleagues were buried by Covid-related work), and some of it is a reflection on the people who should have been helping me to onboard. And some of it reflects on me being old fashioned despite being in my 40s.

If I were advising someone in their 20s, I would strongly recommend that they take a job where they are at least occasionally in the office. The formal and informal mentoring you get in person is extremely valuable. And it is up to us older folks to be available to provide that, even those who feel they work better from home. The ideal situation is one where there is some in person element, but also plenty of flexibility. I like in person work more than most people but would not take a job with a strict five days in the office policy.

That being said, the increased acceptance of remote work has also opened up vast new pools of talent for recruiting. The best candidate might not live nearby and/or might not be willing to relocate. Hiring managers need to consider the nature of the job when making this decision. But even for a fully remote role, I think that a few weeks of in person exposure at the start is invaluable to onboard and build relationships.

[bundabergdevil]

Yes.

[YmoBeThere]

However the exec I talked to is convinced that his people are not putting in the time.

What is his objective data? Can he point to work quality that is deficient or dates that were missed? Perhaps he is reacting to the disappearance of time consuming work that produced little value?

I recently switched jobs from a role I was full-time in the office for 7+ years, remote for nearly two years during the pandemic, and then back to 3 days a week for 3 months before leaving. The new job is virtual with people in Europe, Canada, India and the 4 corners of the US.

I recently realized I miss the camraderie of even the few days in the office with about 30% of employees. I won't get that ever in my current role. That 30% staffing paled in feel to the old days, but those appear to be gone for good. But over the 7+ years I had built enough of an emotional bank account with enough other people that meeting/seeing them once every few weeks was enough to maintain that social bond. With the rotating nature of that 30% that was enough. (I'm 51.) So why did I leave? Because I didn't know what I had and what I valued. And the pay increase felt worth it. It doesn't after 10 weeks away.

[bundabergdevil]

Yes.

Okay, serious answer. I do believe that for certain positions and disciplines, the work world is fundamentally changed. In my profession, there has been an absolute explosion in recruiters reaching out offering remote flexible work situations and I believe they are here to stay because 1) firms can compete for certain types of talent on that angle, and 2) talented individuals can open that as a negotiation option if they so choose.

I think if you are going to climb the corporate ladder, or manage a team, your presence will be required on a more regular basis. If you're a high level individual contributor or your team is elsewhere already, there will be a lot of flexibility. My current employer has been just decimated by people leaving for long-term remote situations as they've tried to get people back in office on a more regular basis.

I hate to say it but the rich will only get richer. If you're in demand, you're going to be able to command remote options if that's what you want.

[Bluedog]

Okay, serious answer. I do believe that for certain positions and disciplines, the work world is fundamentally changed. In my profession, there has been an absolute explosion in recruiters reaching out offering remote flexible work situations and I believe they are here to stay because 1) firms can compete for certain types of talent on that angle, and 2) talented individuals can open that as a negotiation option if they so choose.

I think if you are going to climb the corporate ladder, or manage a team, your presence will be required on a more regular basis. If you're a high level individual contributor or your team is elsewhere already, there will be a lot of flexibility. My current employer has been just decimated by people leaving for long-term remote situations as they've tried to get people back in office on a more regular basis.

I hate to say it but the rich will only get richer. If you're in demand, you're going to be able to command remote options if that's what you want.

There was an article I read theorizing that the "superstars" of certain industries will command multiples of other workers' pay like we see in sports. The argument was that with in office requirements, the pool of workers is so much smaller for each org but now with increased competition these "superstars" have much more leverage and will be able to wield that power. I think it was overstated myself, but agree with the theory to a certain extent.

I work in consulting. My company used to be on client site Mon-Thurs. Now, 90% of the company works from home 5 days a week. It's been a HUGE shift and we're not going back (although admittedly some clients request some on site presence). I personally love it but perhaps wouldn't if I was earlier in my career. You definitely lose the camaraderie and building relationships -- as it's harder to have those valuable organic dialogues with clients and peers. Newcomers also probably don't learn as much as we quickly. I do miss some killer whiteboarding sessions which just aren't the same on zoom.

[YmoBeThere]

Not mentioned is return to office plans. I know ours are lightly enforced.

Google chief warns bloated staff of ‘real concerns’ over productivity

CEO Sundar Pichai said productivity has fallen behind its targets considering its number of employees.

BY TRISTAN BOVE

August 01, 2022 11:14 AM EDT

https://fortune.com/2022/08/01/googl...-concerns/amp/


Between slowing revenue growth and an increasingly murky outlook for tech companies in general, Google is tasking its employees to put in harder shifts at work.

[aimo]

Depends on the people you are employing and the type of work they are doing. I have been working a lot from home, lately, but will be returning to the office three days a week. My telework agreement says ad hoc, so it's flexible, until my new supervisor decides it's not. I work well at home b/c I have an officemate at work. And that is distracting to me. When COVID started at my hospital, they sent all non-essential people home. And a bunch that I needed to communicate with disappeared. saw them posting frequent vacations on facebook. And when they were told this past winter/spring that they were expected to start coming in again, they whined. I laughed.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I know for a fact that Duke supports it. I've got a friend who has worked remotely since the pandemic, and her department has said that they don't see any changes in remote status for the distant future. She and her group are still as productive, and the silver lining is she's saving tons on gas. In reality, it's almost like having a raise since she doesn't have her 30 minute commute twice a day.

[bundabergdevil]

There was an article I read theorizing that the "superstars" of certain industries will command multiples of other workers' pay like we see in sports. The argument was that with in office requirements, the pool of workers is so much smaller for each org but now with increased competition these "superstars" have much more leverage and will be able to wield that power. I think it was overstated myself, but agree with the theory to a certain extent.

I work in consulting. My company used to be on client site Mon-Thurs. Now, 90% of the company works from home 5 days a week. It's been a HUGE shift and we're not going back (although admittedly some clients request some on site presence). I personally love it but perhaps wouldn't if I was earlier in my career. You definitely lose the camaraderie and building relationships -- as it's harder to have those valuable organic dialogues with clients and peers. Newcomers also probably don't learn as much as we quickly. I do miss some killer whiteboarding sessions which just aren't the same on zoom.

It's probably overstated to some extent but I've observed it in my area. I'm in the process of switching from corporate to one of the Big 3, albeit in an internal role, but I have been receiving recruitment notes on LinkedIn weekly for the last year or so. My LI 'flag' is not up; recruiters are just expanding their net for certain positions and it's really been a boon. For some industries, like consulting, and disciplines, options (and therefore leverage) for some folks has greatly increased.

[Bluedog]

It's probably overstated to some extent but I've observed it in my area. I'm in the process of switching from corporate to one of the Big 3, albeit in an internal role, but I have been receiving recruitment notes on LinkedIn weekly for the last year or so. My LI 'flag' is not up; recruiters are just expanding their net for certain positions and it's really been a boon. For some industries, like consulting, and disciplines, options (and therefore leverage) for some folks has greatly increased.

I found the article:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/death-offices-rise-remote-could-163146706.html

I agree that recruiting is bananas because there aren't geographic constraints, just not convinced two people with same title at company could exist with one of them making 20x the other. At least that'd be extremely rare still I suspect, but we shall see.

[Acymetric]

I wonder if work from home will drive up wages for some jobs where work from home is impossible?

[bundabergdevil]

I found the article:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/death...163146706.html

I agree that recruiting is bananas because there aren't geographic constraints, just not convinced two people with same title at company could exist with one of them making 20x the other. At least that'd be extremely rare still I suspect, but we shall see.

Oh, agree. 20X seems silly.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I've worked from home since 1994, whether doing my own gig or working for someone else (outside sales), or doing both.

[elvis14]

When Covid hit we started working remotely and it pretty much went on that way for about 2 years. Earlier this year the offices opened back up and we have a new hybrid model. You basically reserve your desk for the day and come to work if you want. Our group has a preferred work day (Tuesday) which is when we have our team meeting but you can still stay home if you want.

After a while we were told that overall productivity went up. We develop (and test) software and hardware. For me, it was a mixed bag. Sometimes I was more productive, other times I was not. I always missed being around people. I'm back to working 2-3 days a week...although some days there aren't that many people here. There have been a few times recently where I had a hallway conversation that mattered.

My companies overriding message has been "do what makes you happy and productive". I have one co-worker that works from the office 5 days a week now. I have several that only come in on Tuesday (and often just for half a day, going home after our team meeting at 1pm).

The other thing that has changed is remote workers. My team is in RTP and our last hire was in Pittsburgh, as far as I know he has no obligation to move to RTP. One of my co-workers' wife is in medical school and her residency is in NYC. He moved a month ago and is working remote full time. We have one more open position and we are actually looking to hire in Ireland (new site there). That's a huge shift. Previously all of our team members would have been local. So far having one person remote has been fine. Our team has 5 QA engineers, right now we only have 2 local and every now and then we do need to do tasks in the lab (had to test last week moving some cables arounds, for example).

I also think my company has done a few things to try and stem attrition (company wide pay increase for low-medium level employees, better raises, etc). I think that as we have all become comfortable working remotely, quite a few people realized that if they are working from home that they can do that for just about any company. As such, the competition to hire and keep good software engineers (both dev and test) is ramping up. I've worked for this company a long time and with kids in college, I'm fairly risk-averse right now but I have little doubt that I could get a financial boost if I moved around a bit...

[Acymetric]

When Covid hit we started working remotely and it pretty much went on that way for about 2 years. Earlier this year the offices opened back up and we have a new hybrid model. You basically reserve your desk for the day and come to work if you want. Our group has a preferred work day (Tuesday) which is when we have our team meeting but you can still stay home if you want.

After a while we were told that overall productivity went up. We develop (and test) software and hardware. For me, it was a mixed bag. Sometimes I was more productive, other times I was not. I always missed being around people. I'm back to working 2-3 days a week...although some days there aren't that many people here. There have been a few times recently where I had a hallway conversation that mattered.

My companies overriding message has been "do what makes you happy and productive". I have one co-worker that works from the office 5 days a week now. I have several that only come in on Tuesday (and often just for half a day, going home after our team meeting at 1pm).

The other thing that has changed is remote workers. My team is in RTP and our last hire was in Pittsburgh, as far as I know he has no obligation to move to RTP. One of my co-workers' wife is in medical school and her residency is in NYC. He moved a month ago and is working remote full time. We have one more open position and we are actually looking to hire in Ireland (new site there). That's a huge shift. Previously all of our team members would have been local. So far having one person remote has been fine. Our team has 5 QA engineers, right now we only have 2 local and every now and then we do need to do tasks in the lab (had to test last week moving some cables arounds, for example).

I also think my company has done a few things to try and stem attrition (company wide pay increase for low-medium level employees, better raises, etc). I think that as we have all become comfortable working remotely, quite a few people realized that if they are working from home that they can do that for just about any company. As such, the competition to hire and keep good software engineers (both dev and test) is ramping up. I've worked for this company a long time and with kids in college, I'm fairly risk-averse right now but I have little doubt that I could get a financial boost if I moved around a bit...

It definitely sounds like you've found a great company to work for congrats! You're right about the pay though, definitely a trade of between comfort/stability and looking for more money. I'll probably be needing to make a move myself before too long.

[aimo]

When Covid hit we started working remotely and it pretty much went on that way for about 2 years. Earlier this year the offices opened back up and we have a new hybrid model. You basically reserve your desk for the day and come to work if you want. Our group has a preferred work day (Tuesday) which is when we have our team meeting but you can still stay home if you want.

After a while we were told that overall productivity went up. We develop (and test) software and hardware. For me, it was a mixed bag. Sometimes I was more productive, other times I was not. I always missed being around people. I'm back to working 2-3 days a week...although some days there aren't that many people here. There have been a few times recently where I had a hallway conversation that mattered.

My companies overriding message has been "do what makes you happy and productive". I have one co-worker that works from the office 5 days a week now. I have several that only come in on Tuesday (and often just for half a day, going home after our team meeting at 1pm).

The other thing that has changed is remote workers. My team is in RTP and our last hire was in Pittsburgh, as far as I know he has no obligation to move to RTP. One of my co-workers' wife is in medical school and her residency is in NYC. He moved a month ago and is working remote full time. We have one more open position and we are actually looking to hire in Ireland (new site there). That's a huge shift. Previously all of our team members would have been local. So far having one person remote has been fine. Our team has 5 QA engineers, right now we only have 2 local and every now and then we do need to do tasks in the lab (had to test last week moving some cables arounds, for example).

I also think my company has done a few things to try and stem attrition (company wide pay increase for low-medium level employees, better raises, etc). I think that as we have all become comfortable working remotely, quite a few people realized that if they are working from home that they can do that for just about any company. As such, the competition to hire and keep good software engineers (both dev and test) is ramping up. I've worked for this company a long time and with kids in college, I'm fairly risk-averse right now but I have little doubt that I could get a financial boost if I moved around a bit...

My new supervisor is only detailed through September, for now. We are waiting to hear who the new permanent hire is. She lives a couple+ hours away and is only planning on being on-site one week a month. Her predecessors had to spend A LOT of time physically at the hospital, so I do not see how she can be doing the same job working remotely most of the time. I am hoping this is a factor in the hiring, but I'm not holding my breath. When someone introduces herself as not being a micromanager, that usually means she is one. and she seems to be so far.

[PackMan97]

Starting a new gig in two weeks that is my first remote job, though I did work at home since COVID. The company is 60% remote and always had been. Up to around 400 employees right now and hiring constantly. Best of all, they spend the savings on office space on salaries and perks.

If I never have to go back on the office again, that's OK with me.