Duke MBB vs. Illinois Post-Game Thread

[gw67]

The Devils continue to impress me. They are an outstanding shooting team from the field, make the opposition pay when they are fouled, they value the ball and have enough passers (Paulus, Scheyer and Smith), and they play strong team defense. I expected them to be good in these areas but so far the team has exceeded my expectations with their play.

The perimeter play has been outstanding: Henderson has raised his game and appears to be the top offensive player on the team; Nelson seems to be ready to have an outstanding senior year; Paulus and Scheyer have started out well and, IMO, will continue to prove their detractors wrong; and Smith has provided energy off the bench. Jumbo suggested that Henderson needs to look for open players on his drives. I don’t believe that either he or Nelson have that ability in their skill set. They are both outstanding going to the basket and neither is a particularly good or creative passer. On this team, I don’t see that as a particular weakness.

The frontcourt has also played well but I expect them to have some difficulties as the season plays out. Singler is very talented and tougher than I expected but he will have more games like last night against teams who have size and pound the ball low. Thomas has improved offensively but he has not rebounded well. Zoubek has played better than I expected considering that he is coming back from an injury. As the season progresses, I would expect for him to get as many or more minutes than Thomas because he is a better rebounder, blocks shots and has the potential to be a decent post player on offense.

Most predicted that the Devils were a 10-15 ranked team in the country. So far, I think that is a fair assessment although the team has loads of potential and could eventually be a top ten team.

gw67

[Jumbo]

It's an interesting question but I think this shows the limitations of +/- than it shows something wrong with Henderson. I think your implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Henderson can score a lot but perhaps doesn't do so efficiently because he sometimes takes ill-advised shots. Well, I don't agree with this.

Against Illinois when Henderson was playing, he had a huge usage rate (36.3% of Duke's possessions ended with Henderson when he was playing), but he did so very efficiently because he shot well (8 for 15, including 2 for 4 from behind the arc) and got to the line a lot (4 possessions ending with free throws) and had zero turnovers (125 efficiency for the game - only Paulus' and Nelson's were higher for the game with much lower usage rates).

My guess is that the difference is defensive. Oddly enough Henderson played good defense tonight as far as I could tell, forcing 3.5 missed shots (I give half-credit to two guys contesting a shot), allowing 3 field goals made, had 1 block, 1 steal, and 3 defensive rebounds.

So in short, I think +/- stats are interesting but for exactly this reason they are unclear. They don't really tell you a why but only a "that" without any way to really narrow down causes for why "that" happened.

No, see the difference is that I'm not purely a numbers guy. I think Gerald's offensive approach and lack of passing easily could have affected the way the rest of his teammates played at both ends. I could easily be wrong, but it's worth following in future games.

[Jumbo]

And...Jay compared him to (a smaller) Grant...

No, Jay compared a play he made to a "Grant Hill type of play," then compared their athleticism. That's not "comparing Henderson to Hill" in terms of how they play.

[Jumbo]

Jumbo - please don't hate on Henderson. He was our best player last night and to say his presence is more "bad" than good is ... absurd. Pointing out a couple situations where he could have made an extra pass (which were not obvious) overlooks the brilliance of his play. In addition, on multiple occassions, Illinois's defensive rotation was so quick that we had trouble getting good looks on the perimeter - so making the extra pass was no guarantee of an open shot. Even the game's greats could have found areas for improvement.

"Hating" on Henderson? Hardly. But comparing him to Kobe Bryant, the best basketball player on the planet, is so absurd it's not worth a response. And my only gripe with Gerald was that he is not learning how to take drive to the middle and kick to the weak side, which is a staple in this offense and where guys were open for most of the night. Did it diminish from an outstanding performance? Not really. Is it something he should strive to improve? Absolutely.

[duke74]

No, Jay compared a play he made to a "Grant Hill type of play," then compared their athleticism. That's not "comparing Henderson to Hill" in terms of how they play.

Sounds like semantics to me, but whatever...I thought I heard him compare him to a smaller Grant. That's all -- I wasn't commenting on a comparison to "how they play" or on any particular play. Just that the comparison (on whatever basis) was made.

Either way, it puts him in good company.

[feldspar]

"Hating" on Henderson? Hardly. But comparing him to Kobe Bryant, the best basketball player on the planet, is so absurd it's not worth a response. And my only gripe with Gerald was that he is not learning how to take drive to the middle and kick to the weak side, which is a staple in this offense and where guys were open for most of the night. Did it diminish from an outstanding performance? Not really. Is it something he should strive to improve? Absolutely.

I disagree. There are a lot of elements of Henderson's play that can be compared to Kobe. His explosiveness, his amazing vertical, his inside-outside combo, his ability to slash to the basket at a moment's notice.

No one is saying Henderson is as good as Kobe. Merely observing that Henderson displays many of the same unique skills as Kobe, but on a much lower scale. And nobody (respectable) is going to disagree with your assertion that Henderson has a lot of things to work on. But that wasn't the point of the comment.

In other words, it's just a metaphor.

[wisteria]

I'm just glad we have such a large golf shirt budget.

hehe, just heard it from a friend in the athletic department, the basketball team and staff brought 12 different kinds of matching shirts to Maui.. We do have a large golf shirt budget. lol

[tbyers11]

Yeah, wasn't it odd that we were BOTH wearing road unis? What was up with that.

Orange is the Illinois de facto home uniform color. They don't wear white at home much. I remember a game against Wisconsin a few years ago were the Big 10 made Illinois wear white at home because the previous year the officials had a difficult team keeping the Wisconsin red and the Illinois orange straight.

[Troublemaker]

Jumbo suggested that Henderson needs to look for open players on his drives. I don’t believe that either he or Nelson have that ability in their skill set. They are both outstanding going to the basket and neither is a particularly good or creative passer. On this team, I don’t see that as a particular weakness.

I think Nelson is getting there. I feel like he's been a pretty good drive-and-kick guy this season, which is key for this team. He's never going to bat 1.000 with penetration decisions but I feel like his batting average there is much higher this season than in previous.

[elvis14]

I think Nelson is getting there. I feel like he's been a pretty good drive-and-kick guy this season, which is key for this team. He's never going to bat 1.000 with penetration decisions but I feel like his batting average there is much higher this season than in previous.

In watching Nelson what I see is that he makes up his mind before he makes his move. In other words, when he drives and kicks is when the kick out is already there and he can see it and he makes a move specifically with the intention of kicking it out. That's different than having real good court vision where you beat your guy in the lane and then "do the right thing". There are lots of good things at Nelson does on the court but I still don't see court vision and consistently kicking out to the right guy as one of his strengths. Here's to hoping he proves me wrong.

[CDu]

"Hating" on Henderson? Hardly. But comparing him to Kobe Bryant, the best basketball player on the planet, is so absurd it's not worth a response. And my only gripe with Gerald was that he is not learning how to take drive to the middle and kick to the weak side, which is a staple in this offense and where guys were open for most of the night. Did it diminish from an outstanding performance? Not really. Is it something he should strive to improve? Absolutely.

I think you're getting carried away with regard to the Kobe/Hill "comparisons." The announcers didn't actually compare Henderson to Hill or Kobe. They just said he did things in the game that reminded them of things Kobe does, and his "smoothness" and athleticism reminded them of Hill. That's a big difference, and I think what they said was completely reasonable.

Nobody said Henderson is the next Grant Hill or the next Kobe Bryant. That would certainly be silly. Instead, they just said he showed flashes of things that remind them of Hill and Bryant. And I'd say that they're completely accurate. He had a turn fadeaway that was very Kobe-esque. His smooth, gliding style and explosive leaping ability does bring back memories of a young (shorter) Grant Hill. The difference of course is that he OCCASIONALLY shows signs of this, whereas those guys repeatedly did it.

Is it overly meaningful statement to say he does things that remind you of Hill or Bryant? No. Henderson has a long way to go to develop as a player, sure. But he's really athletic, and can do things that some great athletic players did. And because of that, it is completely reasonable to be reminded of those guys whenever he does something like that.

[Wander]

Surprised no one's mentioned my favorite play of the game.

Randle picked up his second foul in the first half and Weber decided to keep him in. Henderson then immediately called for the ball, drove on Randle, and picked up the third foul. Very, very, very smart play. Kind of thing that doesn't necessarily appear in those +/- numbers.

[Saratoga2]

Despite the rebounding disadvantage, and we will have to live with that this year, our defensive pressure caused them to shoot poorly while our offense was very efficient.

Great game for Demarcus. He played terrific defense, rebounded well and most of all he chose high percentage shots and converted them. He also has improved at the free throw line. He was careful with his ball handling and just showed a will to win and the senior leadership this team needs,

Henderson also played really well defensively and he is looking like the go to guy we didn't have last year. He can go to the basket with the best and his elevation on the fade away mid range jumper makes it virtually unstoppable. He also hit from outside. Teams are going to have to key on him with their best defender.

Scheyer also played a great game. He should be given more credit for his defense which is suffocating and he is disruptive of passing as well. He took at least two charges that I saw as well. He is figuring out his offense but I didn't see the reluctance to shoot that seemed to creep into his game late last year.

Paulus ran the team efficiently and his turnovers weren't a problem for the team. He did make one really ill advised pass, but in general he played a strong floor game. He contributed 10 points and didn't force shots.

I also liked Singler's game. He was up against really good big men and defenders but stuck in there. I thought Illinois keyed on him so he had a couple of guys to beat. Despite that, given the slightest opening, this kid can finish.

Thomas also shows that he worked this summer as his footwork and moves around the basket are much better. Both he and Singler need to be very careful about fouling, since we are not deep inside.

Smith is a good defender and can score. He does need to gain some experience in running the team as he did appear to have trouble running the team. Game experience at this level will improve his game and he has what it takes to be a good one.

Zoubek can and will make a difference for us inside. I thought he was weak with the ball duriing the first half. He had trouble catching the ball and frequently tried to tip the ball outside rather than rebound it. He may have gotten some encouragement from the coaches at half time because he was rebounding a better in the second half and keeping the ball high when he did. He also showed that he has moves around the basket which will only get better. I am one of those people that believes in game experience against a good opponent is critical to gaining confidence and making improvements.

Coach K didn't play three guys and I am sure there were solid reasons. King in particular has the big body needed to contest inside and we were getting dangerously close to losing most of our front line. King needs to show more and he will get PT.

[elvis14]

A few observations:

• I really enjoyed watching this game. Especially the fist half. Duke didn't come out in a funk or flat, Ill. was playing well at the start of the game. The cool part was how we handled that. We just got better, played hard, used our talent, kept at it. Unlike watching blow outs, this was a good competitive game and I really enjoyed it. I thought our team D was great tonight and I'm impressed with how K used the zone tonight. I think using a little zone to complement our standard man-to-man adds greatly to what we can accomplish on defense. Plus it's a much better fit for Zoubek and Paulus.
• It bothered me that we didn't finish the half strong, a Duke trademark.
• Gerald was just great tonight. His Kobe move was spectacular and his Grant block was amazing. His first step is so smooth, quick and long! I think his pull up mid-range jumper is a very very important asset to our 1/2 court offense. At one point in the first half Randle picked up his second foul and the TV bozos were talking about him being left in the game. Then they showed him guarding G. I said to myself, he's about to get that 3rd foul...sure enough G beats him off the dribble and Randle's first half ended...classic.
• Singler does a really nice job of sealing off his defender when he's getting an entry pass and this leads to what look like easy layups. They are easy because he's sealing off his defender so well (which isn't always easy, he's just good at it).
• Lance is starting to show what I have thought he was capable of showing. He is much quicker than most bigs and he can score because of it.
• Zoubek was good tonight. Someone else mentioned already that he did a good job of not leaving his feet as often. Big-Z, you're 7'1", keep your feet down and hands up and you'll give shooters trouble all night long!
• Nolan Smith looked much better tonight than in the previous 3 games. That was a really good thing because we are going to need his defense.
• Paulus, love the kids grit but he is a liability way too often on the defensive end. Also, I'm worried every time he starts dribbling the ball on offense, especially if he has a defender on him because he
  can't lose anyone.
• Scheyer had a good game I agree with others about his toughness and nose for the ball. He did make a few "interesting" decisions on offense tonight but that's OK. He just contributes in so many ways.
• Wasn't surprised that we didn't see David or Marty. I was disappointed that we didn't see Marty. He had a poor showing against Princeton but I don't want to get into what we had last year where every time he did something not-perfect he was looking over his shoulder at the bench expecting to get pulled. I wish he would have been given a few minutes as a vote of confidence.
• Enough about individuals, however. What was so great about this game is how is showed our depth and overall talent. I loved the way sooner or later everyone did something good. You don't know which Duke player is going to beat you next. Sweet!

[Troublemaker]

In watching Nelson what I see is that he makes up his mind before he makes his move. In other words, when he drives and kicks is when the kick out is already there and he can see it and he makes a move specifically with the intention of kicking it out. That's different than having real good court vision where you beat your guy in the lane and then "do the right thing". There are lots of good things at Nelson does on the court but I still don't see court vision and consistently kicking out to the right guy as one of his strengths. Here's to hoping he proves me wrong.

Oh, I agree with you. His court vision is one my (and everyone's, really) biggest complaint about Markie. I'm just saying through 7 games this season, he appears improved.

[ugadevil]

Singler also picked up some silly fouls and he will need to be on the floor in big games, but I did like his spunk going face to face with that punk guard in the second half.

I thought that was a really bizarre sequence of events. It was a hard foul and Singler and the other guy definitely were glaring at each other but it didn't look like anything was going to happen other than looking at each other. Then, I seem to remember the ref running in and blowing things up and pushing Singler, pretty aggressively to get him away from the Illinois guard. I found it amusing that the referee looked like he wanted to fight more than anyone else.

[Billy Dat]

-HELLO GERALD HENDERSON. Seriously folks, if this kid gets the confidence to go with his talent, we will finally have the top flight superstar that this team needs to aspire to greatness.

-Demarcus played the type of game he needs to play. If we get Demarcus and Gerald keeping the defense honest with the slash and finish/kick for the 3 game, we are going to be very tough. Illinois is a solid defensive squad and they were driving on them at will.

-If you don't love Scheyer's game, then you don't love basketball

-Singler is HUGE for this team. I love the fact that he was making Randle work on defense. Did you see that little through the leg dribble spin move that he threw out there? He didn't get the hoop, but the kid has game.

-Paulus played a really steady game, and I like that we can bring Smith in to give a different look

-I love that we are throwing the zone out there, it totally changed the pace in the first half. That will really keep teams on their heels as very few teams throw those kind of different looks out there.

-We must accept that our frontline is going to be small and that we will be punished on the offensive boards. Once we get McClure back, and King better understands what we need from him on D, it's going to be a matter of rotating Zoubek, Thomas, Singler, McClure and King out against the other teams' frontlines and hoping for the best. Against good frontlines, like Carolina, I fully expect 2 of our guys to foul out.

Big test tonight - James and McNeal are as good a backcourt as we will see all year. This is a great early season test.

Random notes:
-The "Duke gets all the calls" cries were getting loud last night and Webber was fueling the fire
-I don't get Webber's rotation, we were up 10-11 with 5 minutes left and he had 4 freshmen on the floor, including MJ's son Jeffrey who was getting his first minutes. A little strange, no? The game was far from over at that point.
-Love that both Tark and MJ were at the game...ghosts of Duke past...once a gym rat always a gym rat.
-In the first half, when Illinois went up 6 and looked like they were going to create some separation, Markie hits a big momentum stopper bucket. We need him to have the stones to take and make those kind of shots - he showed flashes last year.
-How about Scheyer's look away pass that led to Gerald's devastating slam...reminded me of his feed to McClure that won the Clemson game.
-Rafferty talked about it - I love how Singler goes baseline.
-Lance has some nice drop step moves in his repetoire...we need to feed the post a little more.

[Dukerati]

There are already too many notes about the game itself for me to add anything constructive on that front but did anyone else have their heart in their throats after Gerald had that monster dunk on the break? He landed kinda awkwardly on one foot and then quickly pirouetted. I thought his spin was one of pain (as in torn ACL) and my cheering was about three seconds delayed out of worry for G. I hope he has some smoother two footed landings in the future...

[wisteria]

There are already too many notes about the game itself for me to add anything constructive on that front but did anyone else have their heart in their throats after Gerald had that monster dunk on the break? He landed kinda awkwardly on one foot and then quickly pirouetted. I thought his spin was one of pain (as in torn ACL) and my cheering was about three seconds delayed out of worry for G. I hope he has some smoother two footed landings in the future...

er... All I was able to think at that moment was, "Man, that is Beautiful!"

[Jeffrey]

Hi,

IMO, the star of the game was Coach K. I think he completely out-coached Weber by making in-game adjustments that left the Illini looking weaker and weaker as the 1st half progressed.

I have yet to hear Coach K get the credit, that IMO, he deserves for making the rather extreme changes that he has. IMO, there are few people who would substantially reinvent themselves at age 60 after having the extreme success that Coach K has experienced/created.

Best regards,
Jeffrey