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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Disagree, the 80s defenses would grab Steph's jersey, hold him, body him, get underneath him on shots, etc, etc, etc. He'd enjoy NONE of the protections that today's rules afford shooters. To some degree*, the poorer shooting in the 80s and 90s was caused by the insane physicality - a shooter wasn't fouled unless he was slapped on the wrist/arm as he shot. Body contact, unless you blasted someone 5 feet and they landed flat on their back, just wasn't called nearly as much... even when jumpshooters were going up with their shot, you could body check them as long as you didn't straight up push them with extended arms while they were in the air.

    I think Steph would be a very good player if he played in the 80s and 90s, but not what he is today. That said, a lot of hall of famers including consensus top 5/10 guys like Shaq and Duncan among others wouldn't be the players they would if they had entered the league today.


    *Obv the skill was also less emphasized, worked on, targeted in personnel decisions, etc.
    Those guys wouldn’t have been able to catch him.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Sigh... why do people always forget that there are TWO ends of the basketball court?

    Curry is a better shooter than Bird. Curry is a better ball-handler. Bird is/was much better playing inside AND out, and a significantly better rebounder. Still, I'd give a SMALL edge to Curry overall offensively.

    BUT AGAIN - Offense is only HALF of the game. Bird 3 times made the all defensive second team. As far as I'm aware, not only has Steph never made an all defensive team, I actually don't think he's ever garnered a single VOTE to be on an all-defensive team.

    I'll also note that Bird was great (RoY and All-Star) from day one when he came into the league. Not until Steph's 5th season did he reach an all-star game. And while Steph may have more titles, you can make the "Kobe" argument. Multiple titles in Steph's pocket are ones where the was NOT objectively the best player on the team (also supported by only one Finals MVP - prob a better measure of "all time greats" than just counting rings... we gonna throw Bob Horry and Kerr into the mix for best players ever too?).

    It's to me a semi-sad indicator of the era in which we live that defense is discounted SO completely that more than a minor fraction of people DON'T EVEN TAKE IT INTO ACCOUNT when measuring a player's greatness. It's either ignored completely, or given about the same relevance as some majorly-obscure advanced-analytics stat.



    "What do you do after you score a bucket? Wait to get the ball back, then score again." - some posters upthread, probably.



    **I'm actually laughing about this and not heated. If anyone takes the tone of my post as angry, you're mistaken! (and apologies to anyone offended by my "quote" above, intended to be a light-hearted joke)
    Then is Steph the greatest offensive player of all time?

  3. #43
    *eats more popcorn*

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Disagree, the 80s defenses would grab Steph's jersey, hold him, body him, get underneath him on shots, etc, etc, etc. He'd enjoy NONE of the protections that today's rules afford shooters. To some degree*, the poorer shooting in the 80s and 90s was caused by the insane physicality - a shooter wasn't fouled unless he was slapped on the wrist/arm as he shot. Body contact, unless you blasted someone 5 feet and they landed flat on their back, just wasn't called nearly as much... even when jumpshooters were going up with their shot, you could body check them as long as you didn't straight up push them with extended arms while they were in the air.

    I think Steph would be a very good player if he played in the 80s and 90s, but not what he is today. That said, a lot of hall of famers including consensus top 5/10 guys like Shaq and Duncan among others wouldn't be the players they would if they had entered the league today.


    *Obv the skill was also less emphasized, worked on, targeted in personnel decisions, etc.
    Don't buy it. First of all Curry is too quick with both his moves and his release for physical play to matter. How often did today's quickest NBA players get to Curry before he released the ball in these finals? You really think Ainge, Tiny Archibald, Parrish, ML Carr, McHale and Bird are going to keep up with Steph coming off screens when he often made Smart look like a cone?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Sigh... why do people always forget that there are TWO ends of the basketball court?

    Curry is a better shooter than Bird. Curry is a better ball-handler. Bird is/was much better playing inside AND out, and a significantly better rebounder. Still, I'd give a SMALL edge to Curry overall offensively.

    BUT AGAIN - Offense is only HALF of the game. Bird 3 times made the all defensive second team. As far as I'm aware, not only has Steph never made an all defensive team, I actually don't think he's ever garnered a single VOTE to be on an all-defensive team.

    I'll also note that Bird was great (RoY and All-Star) from day one when he came into the league. Not until Steph's 5th season did he reach an all-star game. And while Steph may have more titles, you can make the "Kobe" argument. Multiple titles in Steph's pocket are ones where the was NOT objectively the best player on the team (also supported by only one Finals MVP - prob a better measure of "all time greats" than just counting rings... we gonna throw Bob Horry and Kerr into the mix for best players ever too?).

    It's to me a semi-sad indicator of the era in which we live that defense is discounted SO completely that more than a minor fraction of people DON'T EVEN TAKE IT INTO ACCOUNT when measuring a player's greatness. It's either ignored completely, or given about the same relevance as some majorly-obscure advanced-analytics stat.



    "What do you do after you score a bucket? Wait to get the ball back, then score again." - some posters upthread, probably.



    **I'm actually laughing about this and not heated. If anyone takes the tone of my post as angry, you're mistaken! (and apologies to anyone offended by my "quote" above, intended to be a light-hearted joke)
    The Warriors are and have been an excellent defensive team. Steph may not be a plus defender, but he is good enough to fit into a team defense that is very high level.

    I don’t get all these comments about Steph not being the best player on the Warriors. Who was better? I think that Steph has been consistently underrated and we are now seeing just how instrumental he has been to this amazing Warriors run.

    The reason I think that Steph is a better player than Bird is because of his impact on the game. To me, Bird is more along the lines of Kobe — an all time great, for sure, but other all time greats have performed in a similar fashion. Steph is more like Magic — there hasn’t been anyone just like him. His career averages are over 50% FG, 40% 3P and 90% FT, on both high volume and high difficulty, as the/a focal point of the offense with the best defensive teams in the NBA trying to stop him.

    Bird is great, no doubt. But his reputation is inflated but the Boston Sports Industrial Complex.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Bird was an all-time great, obviously. But “Bird” didn’t beat those Lakers. Those great Celtics teams had FOUR Hall of Famers in the starting lineup (more than the Lakers had) plus their best team also had another all-time great in Bill Walton (end of his career and diminished by injury but still a key player) off the bench. Bird wasn’t playing one on five. Not by a very long shot.
    Dennis Johnson was a better, more athletic player before coming to Boston. Robert Parish was okay, but certainly not great before coming to Boston. Kevin McHale was always a Celtic and was greatly fortunate to always be with Bird. He made those guys appear to be better players than they would have otherwise been. They would not have been Hall of Famers without him.

    As soon as Bird’s major injuries began the team fell off dramatically. He was the genius element that made them special. He would have done much the same with any team. Heck, he took a bunch of average to below-average college players at nowheresville Indiana State to a 33-0 record and one win from a national championship.

    As revered as Larry Bird is by so many coaches and players who played with and against him — and he is clearly one of the most revered players in the history of the game — he is still underrated.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Disagree, the 80s defenses would grab Steph's jersey, hold him, body him, get underneath him on shots, etc, etc, etc. He'd enjoy NONE of the protections that today's rules afford shooters. To some degree*, the poorer shooting in the 80s and 90s was caused by the insane physicality - a shooter wasn't fouled unless he was slapped on the wrist/arm as he shot. Body contact, unless you blasted someone 5 feet and they landed flat on their back, just wasn't called nearly as much... even when jumpshooters were going up with their shot, you could body check them as long as you didn't straight up push them with extended arms while they were in the air.

    I think Steph would be a very good player if he played in the 80s and 90s, but not what he is today. That said, a lot of hall of famers including consensus top 5/10 guys like Shaq and Duncan among others wouldn't be the players they would if they had entered the league today.


    *Obv the skill was also less emphasized, worked on, targeted in personnel decisions, etc.
    I think you make many excellent arguments. And being a supporter of University of Virginia, that gives you extra points. Lots of extra points. Wahoowa.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Those guys wouldn’t have been able to catch him.
    Agree. Athletes today are bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled than their 70s and 80s forefathers. That Steph is doing what he does against an all around more physically imposing AND more skilled player set is mighty impressive.

    The players back then were more physical because half of them drank beer at halftime and suffered from diminished motor skills in the 2nd half.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    I know Steph is barely in it somewhere. Kobe has never been in and that’s my favorite player. Ok maybe an argument for Kobe at 10 but I’m doubtful.

    MJ
    LeBron
    Magic
    Bird
    Russel
    Shaq
    Duncan
    Kareem
    Steph
    Wilt


    Just outside are Kobe, West, Durant, Malone.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Steph Curry is better than Larry Bird.
    Oh my soul. Just now seeing this. No way. Steph is certainly top 20, probably top 15, but there’s no way he pushes Bird out of the top 10. That’s just crazy talk.

    Edit: Steven made all the points I would in favor of Bird. Had a not suffered multiple injuries at the midway point of his career, this would not even be a question. And no one‘s going to tell me the Curry is more clutch than Larry Bird.
    Last edited by SouthernDukie; 06-19-2022 at 05:31 PM.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by darthur View Post
    By the way, for people who like these debates, I think the youtube series on thinking-basketball on "highest peaks" is amazing:

    Kobe Bryant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY
    Larry Bird: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8n5tPbWB50
    Steph Curry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvTPxCOfjdE
    Meta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ

    Whether you agree with all he says or not, I haven't ever seen anything else with nearly as much detail and thought put into something like this.
    is there a corresponding series of videos for people who find such debates intractible?
    1200. DDMF.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    .

    BUT AGAIN - Offense is only HALF of the game.
    I agree with the whole of the post but just wanted to bring up one of my opinions that most people seem to consider controversial. I don’t value the defense prior to the mid 00’s as highly as I do todays guys. Defense back then wasn’t defense. It was amateur wrestling and stars were some the worst offenders. You used to could role out “bad defenders” and they be ok due to grabbing and hand checks. Now teams have to bench crucial role players and even some lower level stars because they get hunted on every possession.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    In fact, there's a REAL argument to be made that Durant is a greater player all-time than Steph. Steph has more rings, but Durant has more Finals MVPs. Steph has more league MVPs while Durant has more 1st team All-NBA selections. And like the argument I made about Bird upthread, Durant is 100x the defender Steph is, even if you want to give Steph a small edge overall offensively.
    There is, but that is what is so impressive about Steph winning the Championship this year as the undisputed leader of the team. Durant is (was?) an unstoppable in the right situation, but can be sufficiently checked when he doesn’t have the right team around him.

    Before this season, I would have put Durant ahead of Steph. But after the Warriors persevered against amazing teams with only one consistent overwhelming offensive threat, an aging Green (who played really, really well in Game 6) and a Klay who may have to turn in his Splash Bro card this post season, Steph has shown just how unprecedented he is. In fact, one of his greatest strengths may be his ability to fit into a team concept and scheme, notwithstanding his greatness.

    I do take your point about recency bias. It will be interesting to revisit this conversation when Steph’s career has been in the books for a few years. But I also great players of the past get elevated by the hagiography that develops around the greats, particularly the ones during peak NBA cultural dominance, Michael Jordan being examples 1A, B and C.

    Speaking of which, and getting to a more apples-to-apples comparison they Steph and Bird. Who was the better point guard: Oscar Robertson or Stephen Curry?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    There is, but that is what is so impressive about Steph winning the Championship this year as the undisputed leader of the team. Durant is (was?) an unstoppable in the right situation, but can be sufficiently checked when he doesn’t have the right team around him.

    Before this season, I would have put Durant ahead of Steph. But after the Warriors persevered against amazing teams with only one consistent overwhelming offensive threat, an aging Green (who played really, really well in Game 6) and a Klay who may have to turn in his Splash Bro card this post season, Steph has shown just how unprecedented he is. In fact, one of his greatest strengths may be his ability to fit into a team concept and scheme, notwithstanding his greatness.

    I do take your point about recency bias. It will be interesting to revisit this conversation when Steph’s career has been in the books for a few years. But I also great players of the past get elevated by the hagiography that develops around the greats, particularly the ones during peak NBA cultural dominance, Michael Jordan being examples 1A, B and C.

    Speaking of which, and getting to a more apples-to-apples comparison they Steph and Bird. Who was the better point guard: Oscar Robertson or Stephen Curry?
    I think you are really underselling Green in those last couple of games, and Klay for the last three games. Not to mention the streaky hot shooting of Poole. I’m not buying that Steph carried this whole team to a championship by himself. His supporting cast has been pretty darn good for the Warriors entire run these last seven years.

    Oh, and I have to say Oscar is the better point.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    I think you are really underselling Green in those last couple of games, and Klay for the last three games. Not to mention the streaky hot shooting of Poole. I’m not buying that Steph carried this whole team to a championship by himself. His supporting cast has been pretty darn good for the Warriors entire run these last seven years.
    Steph didn’t carry the whole team by himself. No one can do that and win an NBA Championship. He was certainly the best player and 100% earned his Finals MVP award this year and his supporting cast would confirm this.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    Oh, and I have to say Oscar is the better point.
    Based on what? Winning, scoring, efficiency?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Steph didn’t carry the whole team by himself. No one can do that and win an NBA Championship. He was certainly the best player and 100% earned his Finals MVP award this year and his supporting cast would confirm this.
    I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t have been named MVP. But he had a darn good supporting cast, including Wiggins who I didn’t even mention.

    I just think Oscar was more of a true PG. Steph is a little bit more of a hybrid guard, in my opinion.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    is there a corresponding series of videos for people who find such debates intractible?
    I recommend this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RmdI7plK3Q&t=0s

  19. #59
    Steph Curry is a truly elite player — one of the all-time greats at the PG position — and obviously the best shooter of his era. But to consider him equivalent to (or some have actually said better!) than any of Michael, Larry, Kareem, LeBron, Magic and a few select others just isn’t realistic.

    That being said, congratulations again to the Golden State Warriors and Finals MVP Steph Curry. As an aside, Warriors fans, I very much like and respect your team. Y’all just won the title. Revel in it!

    Fingers-crossed that Jayson and the rest of the Celtics will be seeing your team again in the Finals next season, and hopefully the outcome will go the other way next time. 🍀

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Sigh... why do people always forget that there are TWO ends of the basketball court?
    I agree, but I also think the argument for Curry isn't ignoring defense, it is "He is SO MUCH better at shooting than anyone else that the gap makes up for deficiencies in defense". I personally agree with that the balance of this isn't enough to put him over Bird. I think Curry is top 10 all time but not ahead of Bird. But it IS enough to put him ahead of Kobe, Durant, and many others.

    Just two quick points:

    1. I don't buy the "Bird played tougher opponents" as a huge selling point. Those Lakers teams were great, definitely. But IMO one of Curry's biggest selling points is that his and his team's dominance happened (mostly, not this season) while Lebron was in his prime.

    2. Curry is by no means a better defender than many of the guys we're talking about comparing him to, agreed... but he absolutely was not a "defensive liability" this year. I think someone used that term, and it is not true.

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