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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Steph Curry and his place among the all-time greats

    I remember reading some posts about whether Steph was a top 10 NBA player of all time. I think Jason said no f'in way (and made a very reasoned argument about the other players he thought were ahead of Steph.) I have no idea what thread that discussion was in (maybe NBA playoffs?), so I will just start a new thread with this article.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/t...-not-a-debate/

    This author has Steph in the top 5 of all time. He doesn't actually weigh Steph against other past greats (and that is where it would get difficult); it is mostly a paean to Steph's greatness.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SlimSlowSlider View Post
    I remember reading some posts about whether Steph was a top 10 NBA player of all time. I think Jason said no f'in way (and made a very reasoned argument about the other players he thought were ahead of Steph.) I have no idea what thread that discussion was in (maybe NBA playoffs?), so I will just start a new thread with this article.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/t...-not-a-debate/

    This author has Steph in the top 5 of all time. He doesn't actually weigh Steph against other past greats (and that is where it would get difficult); it is mostly a paean to Steph's greatness.
    Fun convo/debate for a slow time of year!

    This guy's primary point of why Curry is top 5 all time is based on..... an Andre Igoudala quote? Where Igoudala annoints Curry as the best PG of all time. What is the basis for this when comparing to other greats? What if NO point belongs in the top 5 all time?

    Curry might very well be top 5 most influential player of all time. He came along at a time where the analytics taking hold made teams truly understand the value of the 3pt shot... and there's a CLEARLY a legitimate argument to be made for him being the greatest 3pt shooter of all time (in fact, if I had to guess I'd imagine somewhere in the 80-99% of fans would say he IS). But if we're going to talk greatest players, let's look a individual domination of the league over a long period of time, as well as ability on BOTH ENDS of the court. To each his own, but I *cannot* in good conscious put a guy in the top 5 all time when he is a MAJOR defensive liability (when compared to other all-time greats, not just typical NBA players, where I still believe he falls in the "average to below average" defender, steals-touting-apologists notwithstanding). I'd also wager that no-one else in my PERSONAL top 5, or even top 10, all-time has been to 6 finals and secured finals MVP only once.

    Steph is a great, GREAT player. He changed the game. He can be both of those things and not a top 10 player all time.

    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan

    Close but... no. (again, in no particular order):
    Olajuwon
    West
    Barkley
    Stockton
    Malone
    Curry
    Isaiah Thomas
    Ewing
    Dirk
    Iverson

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000
    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan
    I definitely agree that Steph is not Top 10. Iíd delete two from your list to add Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. However, Iíd rank all 12 higher than Curry.

    Whenever, I think about Top 10 Iím always amazed how many were Lakers.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Fun convo/debate for a slow time of year!

    This guy's primary point of why Curry is top 5 all time is based on.... an Andre Igoudala quote? Where Igoudala annoints Curry as the best PG of all time. What is the basis for this when comparing to other greats? What if NO point belongs in the top 5 all time?

    Curry might very well be top 5 most influential player of all time. He came along at a time where the analytics taking hold made teams truly understand the value of the 3pt shot... and there's a CLEARLY a legitimate argument to be made for him being the greatest 3pt shooter of all time (in fact, if I had to guess I'd imagine somewhere in the 80-99% of fans would say he IS). But if we're going to talk greatest players, let's look a individual domination of the league over a long period of time, as well as ability on BOTH ENDS of the court. To each his own, but I *cannot* in good conscious put a guy in the top 5 all time when he is a MAJOR defensive liability (when compared to other all-time greats, not just typical NBA players, where I still believe he falls in the "average to below average" defender, steals-touting-apologists notwithstanding). I'd also wager that no-one else in my PERSONAL top 5, or even top 10, all-time has been to 6 finals and secured finals MVP only once.

    Steph is a great, GREAT player. He changed the game. He can be both of those things and not a top 10 player all time.

    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan

    Close but... no. (again, in no particular order):
    Olajuwon
    West
    Barkley
    Stockton
    Malone
    Curry
    Isaiah Thomas
    Ewing
    Dirk
    Iverson
    I like your Top 10, though I would definitely put Hakeem Olajuwon above Shaq. And Iím lukewarm on Bryant being quite that high. But itís probably semantics because theyíre close enough regardless.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Whenever, I think about Top 10 Iím always amazed how many were Lakers.
    Well, Chamberlain, Alcindor (Abdul Jabbar), James and OíNeal were already very well-established with other teams before becoming vagabonds and ending up on the LA Lakers.

    But yeah, the LA Lakers dominate the list of Top 15.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Well, Chamberlain, Alcindor (Abdul Jabbar), James and OíNeal were already very well-established with other teams before becoming vagabonds and ending up on the LA Lakers.

    But yeah, the LA Lakers dominate the list of Top 15.
    At a significant point in their professional career, many, if not most, of the greatest players end up playing for the Lakers or Yankees. Professional football is a very different story.

  7. #7
    Jabbar, Wilt, MJ, Lebron, Hakeem - doesn't break the top five not even close.

    Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.

    Nope. Not too ten.

    Not ranking these necessarily, just quickly naming ten guys better.

    Now, if we are talking about most exciting players to watch, it's a very different conversation:

    MJ, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Iverson...

    Okay, I'd say Curry is top ten most exciting to watch. But probably if I spent 30 minutes thinking, he'd land between 15-20 all time best, maybe even lower.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    At a significant point in their professional career, many, if not most, of the greatest players end up playing for the Lakers or Yankees. Professional football is a very different story.
    Because professional football players can't play for the Lakers or Yankees? Kidding.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan

    Close but... no. (again, in no particular order):
    Olajuwon
    West
    Barkley
    Stockton
    Malone
    Curry
    Isaiah Thomas
    Ewing
    Dirk
    Iverson
    This is actually pretty close to what I'd have... but I would swap Kobe and Curry. I'd have Curry just barely in the top 10 and Kobe just barely out. It's close.

    I could go through the stats and comparing title and MVPs between Curry and other players on this list, but instead I will just say this: if you are essentially universally agreed upon to be by far the best shooter in a sport where the entire point is to make shots, so much so that you changed how the sport is played, there has to be room for you somewhere near the top almost by definition.

  10. #10
    I would consider him the best of the modern era, since say the days of Larry Bird.

    Why?

    It's simple, he's not some freak athlete or physical specimen that comes along and dominates the game because of their genetics. I'm looking at you MJ, Shaq, etc.

    What Curry has done has changed the game of basketball more in the past 40 years than anyone else in the league, and that's why he is the best of the modern era and one of the best of all time. When you are so good that you force all the other teams to change the way they play and coach the game is to be truly great. Everyone could try and go get an MJ, a Lebron, a Shaq, but those guys aren't the best because they are transcendent ball players, they were the best because they were genetically perfect for the game. You couldn't go out and get another player like them.

    disclaimer: I'll make any argument possible to get someone other than MJ named as the best player...because I live the 9f life.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    ...**For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10...
    I think Wahoo nails it. Curry would have been welcomed by any of those vets whether top ten or top eleven.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Fun convo/debate for a slow time of year!

    This guy's primary point of why Curry is top 5 all time is based on.... an Andre Igoudala quote? Where Igoudala annoints Curry as the best PG of all time. What is the basis for this when comparing to other greats? What if NO point belongs in the top 5 all time?

    Curry might very well be top 5 most influential player of all time. He came along at a time where the analytics taking hold made teams truly understand the value of the 3pt shot... and there's a CLEARLY a legitimate argument to be made for him being the greatest 3pt shooter of all time (in fact, if I had to guess I'd imagine somewhere in the 80-99% of fans would say he IS). But if we're going to talk greatest players, let's look a individual domination of the league over a long period of time, as well as ability on BOTH ENDS of the court. To each his own, but I *cannot* in good conscious put a guy in the top 5 all time when he is a MAJOR defensive liability (when compared to other all-time greats, not just typical NBA players, where I still believe he falls in the "average to below average" defender, steals-touting-apologists notwithstanding). I'd also wager that no-one else in my PERSONAL top 5, or even top 10, all-time has been to 6 finals and secured finals MVP only once.

    Steph is a great, GREAT player. He changed the game. He can be both of those things and not a top 10 player all time.

    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan

    Close but... no. (again, in no particular order):
    Olajuwon
    West
    Barkley
    Stockton
    Malone
    Curry
    Isaiah Thomas
    Ewing
    Dirk
    Iverson
    Any list of greatest players that is 20 names long and doesn't include Oscar Robertson is fundamentally flawed.

  13. #13
    I just thought of something: Where is Julius Erving, the legendary Dr. J?? Iíll take him over Stockton any day and twice on Sunday. Certainly his impact on the league ó and in popular culture ó was infinitely greater than that of Stockton. I know thatís not necessarily what this list is about, but still. For half a decade or more Dr. J was The Man.

    And then came Bird and Magic.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Any list of greatest players that is 20 names long and doesn't include Oscar Robertson is fundamentally flawed.
    Yeah, heís got to be above Iverson, right?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Any list of greatest players that is 20 names long and doesn't include Oscar Robertson is fundamentally flawed.
    Agreed. And perhaps it is just my total distaste for him as a human being that blurs my vision, but Isaiah should not be on this list. He probably belongs in the next batch, though I think there are some other old-timers who should also be there as well.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Any list of greatest players that is 20 names long and doesn't include Oscar Robertson is fundamentally flawed.
    Yikes! Defending myself, I was going completely off the top of my head. For the record, I *would* almost definitely put The Big O in that 11-20 range (although his #1 claim to fame/greatness has lost a chunk of the luster with Westbrook accomplishing the feat multiple times... and you see Westbrook on practically ZERO people's "all time greats list").

    Steven43 makes a good point about Julius Erving as well. Honestly when you get outside the top 15ish, the next 10-15 guys are prob nearly interchangeable. The farther you get from the absolute peak performers, the muddier the waters get.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Agreed. And perhaps it is just my total distaste for him as a human being that blurs my vision, but Isaiah should not be on this list. He probably belongs in the next batch, though I think there are some other old-timers who should also be there as well.
    Double agreed. I sporked RSV for his comment you quoted and in my message to him, I said I'd likely slide Zeke out for Robertson.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    Fun convo/debate for a slow time of year!

    This guy's primary point of why Curry is top 5 all time is based on.... an Andre Igoudala quote? Where Igoudala annoints Curry as the best PG of all time. What is the basis for this when comparing to other greats? What if NO point belongs in the top 5 all time?

    Curry might very well be top 5 most influential player of all time. He came along at a time where the analytics taking hold made teams truly understand the value of the 3pt shot... and there's a CLEARLY a legitimate argument to be made for him being the greatest 3pt shooter of all time (in fact, if I had to guess I'd imagine somewhere in the 80-99% of fans would say he IS). But if we're going to talk greatest players, let's look a individual domination of the league over a long period of time, as well as ability on BOTH ENDS of the court. To each his own, but I *cannot* in good conscious put a guy in the top 5 all time when he is a MAJOR defensive liability (when compared to other all-time greats, not just typical NBA players, where I still believe he falls in the "average to below average" defender, steals-touting-apologists notwithstanding). I'd also wager that no-one else in my PERSONAL top 5, or even top 10, all-time has been to 6 finals and secured finals MVP only once.

    Steph is a great, GREAT player. He changed the game. He can be both of those things and not a top 10 player all time.

    **For those 1% reading this post curious of my personal top 10, here they are in no particular order - assume some mild bias towards players post 1980 as that's most of my personal viewing experience:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Russell
    Chamberlain
    Kareem
    LeBron
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan

    Close but... no. (again, in no particular order):
    Olajuwon
    West
    Barkley
    Stockton
    Malone
    Curry
    Isaiah Thomas
    Ewing
    Dirk
    Iverson
    Steph Curry is better than Larry Bird.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Steph Curry is better than Larry Bird.
    *Grabs a bag of popcorn*

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Steph Curry is better than Larry Bird.
    At virtually nothing.

    But Curry is an all-timer (Top 20) nonetheless.

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