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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    Age old indie rock "ethic" derided and bemoaned any independent band's move from a small label to a major as "selling out" in essence, compromising your art for money. I wasn't really dialed into any sort of scene in 1988 when REM signed with WB so I can't attest to any backlash, but I'm sure there were those true believers who did. I think REM's work stands for itself and their integrity.

    Its just another form of tribalism, and a desperate attempt by some to cling to some indie cred ideal to come across as interesting people. I wish I could say I was lying when I've heard scenesters abandon certain bands because they had a song used as a transition bumper on NPR and were thus "too popular". That aint no way to live.
    Like Deadheads and Touch of Grey?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    Like Deadheads and Touch of Grey?
    Was that a thing? I mean where your only hit is like 20+ years after being an established touring act and and raised awareness of the band to anyone in under the age of say 35 can raise territorial indignation, I guess anything can.

    I'm pretty sure they got by.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    Was that a thing? I mean where your only hit is like 20+ years after being an established touring act and and raised awareness of the band to anyone in under the age of say 35 can raise territorial indignation, I guess anything can.

    I'm pretty sure they got by.
    I see what you did there.



    As to the indie 'sell-out' thing, I was one of those people back in the day that loved knowing bands that hardly anybody else knew. Coolest thing was discovering a band that none of your friends knew about. I remember Meat Puppets, the Minutemen, Dumptruck, Guadalcanal Diary, Blood on the Saddle, Hoodoo Gurus, Lords of the New Church, My Life With the Thrill Kill Cult, Pavement, etc, etc back before they they became more known. It was fun.

    Pre-major label REM wasn't really that small, but I do remember thinking they had made a big mistake signing to a major label. They were on IRS in the beginning, if memory serves. IRS was an indie label that we all thought was pretty cool.

    Obviously REM went on to continue to make good music even after they signed to a major label, but some of the other bands went bad after they switched. And it did feel a bit like a betrayal. But the no biggie, there was always another obscure band to find.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    I see what you did there.



    As to the indie 'sell-out' thing, I was one of those people back in the day that loved knowing bands that hardly anybody else knew. Coolest thing was discovering a band that none of your friends knew about. I remember Meat Puppets, the Minutemen, Dumptruck, Guadalcanal Diary, Blood on the Saddle, Hoodoo Gurus, Lords of the New Church, My Life With the Thrill Kill Cult, Pavement, etc, etc back before they they became more known. It was fun.

    Pre-major label REM wasn't really that small, but I do remember thinking they had made a big mistake signing to a major label. They were on IRS in the beginning, if memory serves. IRS was an indie label that we all thought was pretty cool.

    Obviously REM went on to continue to make good music even after they signed to a major label, but some of the other bands went bad after they switched. And it did feel a bit like a betrayal. But the no biggie, there was always another obscure band to find.
    Flashbacks!!! Did you ever listen to Human Sexual Response? The band, I mean.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    I think REM's work stands for itself and their integrity.

    I
    What does REM’s work stand for, by itself? This thread prompted me to go back and listen to the songs other than the popular hits and there are some songs I enjoy for sure, but this revisit will get me by for another decade or so.

    One example: Radio Free Europe was great to sing along to once more, but it is a song from its time that does not demand attention in my playlist.

    I do enjoy REM’s hits, but again, I’m not putting them in the rotation.

  6. #106
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    raleigh
    so, if a band did everything for themselves, they were considered "indy"? so, they managed themselves, booked themselves, made their on recordings, (releasing them as well) did their own merch, owned their own publishing and songs, toured where they wanted to and had a ton of fans......that's an "indy band"???


    or is the "tons of fans" the buzz stripper..?
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

  7. #107
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    so, if a band did everything for themselves, they were considered "indy"? so, they managed themselves, booked themselves, made their on recordings, (releasing them as well) did their own merch, owned their own publishing and songs, toured where they wanted to and had a ton of fans...that's an "indy band"???
    If so, the Grateful Dead were the kings of Indy.

  8. #108
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    Dec 2011
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    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    If so, the Grateful Dead were the kings of Indy.
    I would argue that the Dead were less kings of indy than creators of an entirely alternative path to commercial success

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    Age old indie rock "ethic" derided and bemoaned any independent band's move from a small label to a major as "selling out" in essence, compromising your art for money. I wasn't really dialed into any sort of scene in 1988 when REM signed with WB so I can't attest to any backlash, but I'm sure there were those true believers who did. I think REM's work stands for itself and their integrity.

    Its just another form of tribalism, and a desperate attempt by some to cling to some indie cred ideal to come across as interesting people. I wish I could say I was lying when I've heard scenesters abandon certain bands because they had a song used as a transition bumper on NPR and were thus "too popular". That aint no way to live.
    Well put. I sense this phenomenon accelerated in the early-mid '90's. I think the narrative goes that grunge and alt and college radio and smaller labels had rescued rock 'n roll from the dastardly hands of commerce, which had been diluting its purity since whenever any individual music fan thought it had peaked, leading to the barren, soulless landscape of the mid-late '80's when MTV was saturated with glitz and none of the music actually, you know, rocked. And then "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came out and it was pure and raging and Everything Changed blah blah blah, and so everyone felt even more betrayed by musicians who chose not to spend their entire lives fighting the system.

    There's been tension between art and commerce in rock music since forever.* But from 1992 and beyond there was definitely a feeling in the air that everyone who burst through those barriers to entry had an obligation to stick with the one who got them there/create a new class of competitors to the big labels/not care to make a living at their craft so as to safeguard the purity of their fans' love for them or whatever. Maybe this was because it felt like these rebels had made their music in direct opposition to the ethos that seemed to permeate the 1980's (money money money), as opposed to the classic rock rebellion against outdated social mores and prudishness and whatever else defined the culture wars of the '50's and '60's. Probably more that their fans imprinted that on them, though - they felt like they had just lived through their entire adolescence being told by commercial radio and big labels what they were supposed to like and had now been freed, so it felt icky to buy something with the Sony label on it.

    I never fully understood the backlash against anyone who wanted their music to actually be heard by more people, though. I was, however, admittedly one who was internally disappointed every time a band that I'd discovered before the general populace broke through, and all of the sudden they were on the CD player in every dorm room and those people didn't even appreciate it, man. Totally not a snob, though. Anyway, I've gotten over that stage. Related to this thread, Dave Matthews was one of those acts for me - I both took home an original release Remember Two Things CD I found at Schoolkids for winter break in '93 and played it for everyone I could find who would listen to it, and just 12 months later felt horrified when I heard "What Would You Say" at every party I went to over the following winter break.

    * IMHO best captured in song by Pink Floyd on "Have A Cigar."
    Last edited by Mal; 07-11-2022 at 04:14 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I’m listening to Tedeschi Trucks Band right now and wondering who their influences were.
    I wouldn't overthink that one too much. The Allmans, Bonnie Raitt and Irma Thomas probably gets you halfway there, with most of the rest just a general reference to "New Orleans". The first of them, especially, given Derek Trucks' background.

  11. #111
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    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    so, if a band did everything for themselves, they were considered "indy"? so, they managed themselves, booked themselves, made their on recordings, (releasing them as well) did their own merch, owned their own publishing and songs, toured where they wanted to and had a ton of fans...that's an "indy band"???


    or is the "tons of fans" the buzz stripper..?
    No. They just had to be on an indie label; in other words, not on a major label. Major labels were for sell-outs.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Well put. I sense this phenomenon accelerated in the early-mid '90's. I think the narrative goes that grunge and alt and college radio and smaller labels had rescued rock 'n roll from the dastardly hands of commerce, which had been diluting its purity since whenever any individual music fan thought it had peaked, leading to the barren, soulless landscape of the mid-late '80's when MTV was saturated with glitz and none of the music actually, you know, rocked. And then "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came out and it was pure and raging and Everything Changed blah blah blah, and so everyone felt even more betrayed by musicians who chose not to spend their entire lives fighting the system.

    There's been tension between art and commerce in rock music since forever.* But from 1992 and beyond there was definitely a feeling in the air that everyone who burst through those barriers to entry had an obligation to stick with the one who got them there/create a new class of competitors to the big labels/not care to make a living at their craft so as to safeguard the purity of their fans' love for them or whatever. Maybe this was because it felt like these rebels had made their music in direct opposition to the ethos that seemed to permeate the 1980's (money money money), as opposed to the classic rock rebellion against outdated social mores and prudishness and whatever else defined the culture wars of the '50's and '60's. Probably more that their fans imprinted that on them, though - they felt like they had just lived through their entire adolescence being told by commercial radio and big labels what they were supposed to like and had now been freed, so it felt icky to buy something with the Sony label on it.

    I never fully understood the backlash against anyone who wanted their music to actually be heard by more people, though. I was, however, admittedly one who was internally disappointed every time a band that I'd discovered before the general populace broke through, and all of the sudden they were on the CD player in every dorm room and those people didn't even appreciate it, man. Totally not a snob, though. Anyway, I've gotten over that stage. Related to this thread, Dave Matthews was one of those acts for me - I both took home an original release Remember Two Things CD I found at Schoolkids for winter break in '93 and played it for everyone I could find who would listen to it, and just 12 months later felt horrified when I heard "What Would You Say" at every party I went to over the following winter break.

    * IMHO best captured in song by Pink Floyd on "Have A Cigar."
    Maybe it depends on what era you grew up in, but I would say the timing in your story is all wrong. It was in the mid-to late 80s that all the cool 'college rock' bands were in their heyday.

    Nirvana and Sound Garden sold out right away. Nevermind and BadMotorFinger, respectively, were both major label releases. Nirvana had one EP on an indie prior to their explosive success. Some of the other, less well known grunge bands were indie for awhile, li? E Screaming Trees and Mother Love Bone, and the like, although if I recall correctly, even Screaming Trees got a major label release not that long after Nirvana and Soundgarden, riding on their coat tails, as it were.

    The bottom line was really that if you got a lot of commercial radio play you were no longer cool. Kind of how Facebook went from being hip to being anathema once the soccer moms got on there. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry knew your band, you were no longer obscure, no longer 'exclusive' to the cool kids who sought you out and defined themselves, at least partially, by the bands they listened to. At that point we had no more use for you. We were off to find the next obscure band. Sometimes guys who were on an indie label, and sometimes guys who sold their own cassette tapes out of the trunk of their car on Maple Street in New Orleans, like Dash Rip Rock, still cool after all these years.
    Last edited by rsvman; 07-11-2022 at 04:45 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Maybe it depends on what era you grew up in, but I would say the timing in your story is all wrong. It was in the mid-to late 80s that all the cool 'college rock' bands were in their heyday.

    Nirvana and Sound Garden sold out right away. Nevermind and BadMotorFinger, respectively, were both major label releases. Nirvana had one EP on an indie prior to their explosive success. Some of the other, less well known grunge bands were indie for awhile, li? E Screaming Trees and Mother Love Bone, and the like, although if I recall correctly, even Screaming Trees got a major label release not that long after Nirvana and Soundgarden, riding on their coat tails, as it were.

    The bottom line was really that if you got a lot of commercial radio play you were no longer cool. Kind of how Facebook went from being hip to being anathema once the soccer moms got on there. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry knew your band, you were no longer obscure, no longer 'exclusive' to the cool kids who sought you out and defined themselves, at least partially, by the bands they listened to. At that point we had no more use for you. We were off to find the next obscure band. Sometimes guys who were on an indie label, and sometimes guys who sold their own cassette tapes out of the trunk of their car on Maple Street in New Orleans, like Dash Rip Rock, still cool after all these years.
    Soundgarden was the first Seattle area band (of the grunge era) to be signed to a major label (A&M) and Louder Than Love was their first major label release in 1989. Nirvana released their first record, and a few singles and one EP on SubPop before deciding to go with DGC with the help of coaxing by future label mates and touring partners Sonic Youth. Screaming Trees' major label debut Uncle Anesthesia predates Nevermind by about 9 months. Mother Love Bone was signed to a major (Polygram) and were set to release their major label debut in 1990 but Andrew Wood OD'd. Certain indie darlings like The Pixies and The Smiths released pretty much all of their output on major labels, so the whole definition of what "selling out" is becomes a constantly moving goalpost that tends to suit whoever is making the definition so they can be the bastion of musical ethics. It really manifested from the 70s punk DIY credo. I would argue that simply being signed to a major is not "selling out" necessarily, but again, I'm not the sole arbiter of this term. I don't even think it even applies in today's music industry.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoKogan View Post
    Soundgarden was the first Seattle area band (of the grunge era) to be signed to a major label (A&M) and Louder Than Love was their first major label release in 1989. Nirvana released their first record, and a few singles and one EP on SubPop before deciding to go with DGC with the help of coaxing by future label mates and touring partners Sonic Youth. Screaming Trees' major label debut Uncle Anesthesia predates Nevermind by about 9 months. Mother Love Bone was signed to a major (Polygram) and were set to release their major label debut in 1990 but Andrew Wood OD'd. Certain indie darlings like The Pixies and The Smiths released pretty much all of their output on major labels, so the whole definition of what "selling out" is becomes a constantly moving goalpost that tends to suit whoever is making the definition so they can be the bastion of musical ethics. It really manifested from the 70s punk DIY credo. I would argue that simply being signed to a major is not "selling out" necessarily, but again, I'm not the sole arbiter of this term. I don't even think it even applies in today's music industry.
    Thanks for the corrections to my timeline, album titles, etc. (Duh, I knew that Louder than Love was Soundgarden's first album...brain fart.)

    Interesting point about the Pixies, Smiths, and the like. Maybe the same would be true for Husker Du, and probably a lot of other bands (Jesus and Mary Chain, The Cult, and a bunch of others). Maybe the indie/major label thing was more about bands that started on an indie label, made some waves, and then moved on to a major label; made it feel like something different from critical darlings that were always on a major label.

    Perhaps the real issue is two-fold: 1) how much radio play (not on "college stations" but on "commercial" stations) did the band get, and 2) how popular did they get with people who don't/didn't know anything about them before they hit the mainstream, or among people who don't/didn't know any of the other "cool" bands that the cool kids knew.

    If you got a lot of commercial radio play and you became popular among people who were previously only listening to the J Geils Band, etc., then you were automatically a "sell-out" and no longer had any cachet, period.

    Bands like the Pixies, the Smiths, and Sonic Youth (among many others) were therefore cool despite their major labels, because they didn't get much commercial air time and remained (relatively speaking) under the radar.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Thanks for the corrections to my timeline, album titles, etc. (Duh, I knew that Louder than Love was Soundgarden's first album...brain fart.)

    Interesting point about the Pixies, Smiths, and the like. Maybe the same would be true for Husker Du, and probably a lot of other bands (Jesus and Mary Chain, The Cult, and a bunch of others). Maybe the indie/major label thing was more about bands that started on an indie label, made some waves, and then moved on to a major label; made it feel like something different from critical darlings that were always on a major label.

    Perhaps the real issue is two-fold: 1) how much radio play (not on "college stations" but on "commercial" stations) did the band get, and 2) how popular did they get with people who don't/didn't know anything about them before they hit the mainstream, or among people who don't/didn't know any of the other "cool" bands that the cool kids knew.

    If you got a lot of commercial radio play and you became popular among people who were previously only listening to the J Geils Band, etc., then you were automatically a "sell-out" and no longer had any cachet, period.

    Bands like the Pixies, the Smiths, and Sonic Youth (among many others) were therefore cool despite their major labels, because they didn't get much commercial air time and remained (relatively speaking) under the radar.
    Sorry if I came across as a "well, actually" music snob. The early 90s alternative and indie rock scene was my scene for sure so I have vivid memories on what was popular at the time. I cannot attribute the quote nor remember it with 100% accuracy , but it was something to the effect that whatever defined your music taste when you were 19, defines your taste for the rest of your life. Probably doesn't hold up to real scrutiny but it certainly applied to me. Those bands that I really got into in 93-94, those albums released during that time, even the older ones that I discovered during that time (like the Smiths or REM) have stuck with me to this very day.
    Anyway, I did a stint of being a DJ on college radio, it was super fun, exposed me to all kinds of music, but also exposed me to the almost cartoon like nature of the indie scenester. Sometimes, I would play stuff like Stone Temple Pilots simply because they hated it.
    I think the concept of selling out has definitely changed, it changed at the turn of the millennium. I remember seeing commercials using music from Flaming Lips, Lush and Modest Mouse, this was unthinkable like 10 years prior. But I wasn't bothered by it. If they got a payday because Ford wanted to use their song as background music, and they don't have to get crappy day jobs and can do what they love, great for them. The concept of selling out may still exist, but maybe for real extreme examples, those artists that actively changed their sounds solely to sell more records, but I don't know if you're going to find too many glaring examples of that now.

  16. #116
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    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    One way they differ? REM would never poo this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave...River_incident

  17. #117
    Then again…

    Wikipedia:
    British Airways Flight 48: After attendants on the April 21 flight from Seattle to London[56] refused to serve R.E.M. guitarist Peter Buck, 44, a 16th glass of wine, he became disorderly, tearing up the "yellow card" the airline gives to passengers whose behavior is becoming unacceptable, trying to play a CD on the drinks cart and spraying two flight attendants with yogurt. After his arrest, he attributed his behavior to the interaction of the alcohol with the sleeping pills he took, and claimed to remember nothing between when he fell asleep in his seat and when he woke up at the police station. He was acquitted on the grounds of non-insane automatism.[57]

    btw, the ‘air rage incidents’ wiki is fascinating. What a species.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by fidel View Post
    Then again…

    Wikipedia:
    British Airways Flight 48: After attendants on the April 21 flight from Seattle to London[56] refused to serve R.E.M. guitarist Peter Buck, 44, a 16th glass of wine, he became disorderly, tearing up the "yellow card" the airline gives to passengers whose behavior is becoming unacceptable, trying to play a CD on the drinks cart and spraying two flight attendants with yogurt. After his arrest, he attributed his behavior to the interaction of the alcohol with the sleeping pills he took, and claimed to remember nothing between when he fell asleep in his seat and when he woke up at the police station. He was acquitted on the grounds of non-insane automatism.[57]

    btw, the ‘air rage incidents’ wiki is fascinating. What a species.
    That sounds like a scene from The Wolf of Wall Street. Wow.

  19. #119
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    Apr 2011
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    Winston’Salem
    Posted without further commentary.

    44803F6A-1779-489B-927A-0ABAC5DEB078.jpg
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

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