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Thread: Heyman's Number

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California
    In 2007, Jason Evans ran a 'favorite player' poll, matching Heyman with Shelden Williams. Here's the link.

    https://forums.dukebasketballreport...lden-vs-Heyman

    Shelden won by an eyelash, clearly due to recency bias. (2002-2006 v. 1960-1963.) A difference of 43 years, now grown to 59 years. In the comments, our old friend Olympic Fan filed an incredibly insightful post about Heyman's play and the honors he received, including making a strong argument that Heyman started Duke on its way to national basketball prominence. I'd link it separately, but the entire thread as it pertains to Heyman is worthwhile. Clearly Heyman was Duke's first 'Mofo." That alone is reason enough not to unretire his number.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by jgehtland View Post
    "If they cared" is a giant leap. If "they" cared is emblematic of the culture of the internet. Like, by all means, everyone can have their own principles about what jersey retirement means, and means to them. But there is a lot of preemptive "I've been wronged, other people are harming me purposefully" sturm-und-drang about this before literally *anything* has happened other than one post listing one player's number as #25. I'm simply suggesting pocketing the public disgust until somebody has a chance to explain whether it was intentional, accidental, or a "hey, GFY my Duke die-hards, we don't want you anymore" kick in the face. If it was the latter, I'll buy the pitchforks and kick in on part of the torches.
    I think you are blowing this a bit out of proportion. We are having a discussion about this. There is enough evidence at this point to confirm that Mitchell is wearing Heyman's number - it is on Goduke.com - it is not a hypothesis or a rumor. I think the underlying thought here is "I'm curious to hear why this happened" and "I kind of like the tradition of retired numbers staying retired so if there is not a good explanation, I'm not thrilled with this." There is a decent chance we will never get an answer. But I don't think anyone is saying 'this is a dealbreaker for me - I will never set foot in Cameron again because of this" or "Mitchell is dead to me for doing this."

    This is the nature of the internet. And issues like this are discussed a lot more intelligently and rationally here at DBR than in most other corners of the internet.

  3. #43
    Here is a great compromise. Because we are in-retiring a number, I think we need to add a replacement. Jim Spanarkel.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Hasn't been an issue for the CHeats down the road. Then again, nobody has ever accused them of being good with numbers.

    Attachment 14651
    My god, that’s dizzying. What is it??

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I think you are blowing this a bit out of proportion. We are having a discussion about this. There is enough evidence at this point to confirm that Mitchell is wearing Heyman's number - it is on Goduke.com - it is not a hypothesis or a rumor. I think the underlying thought here is "I'm curious to hear why this happened" and "I kind of like the tradition of retired numbers staying retired so if there is not a good explanation, I'm not thrilled with this." There is a decent chance we will never get an answer. But I don't think anyone is saying 'this is a dealbreaker for me - I will never set foot in Cameron again because of this" or "Mitchell is dead to me for doing this."

    This is the nature of the internet. And issues like this are discussed a lot more intelligently and rationally here at DBR than in most other corners of the internet.
    I was responding to the words “shameless” and, to a lesser extent, “super lame”, and the series of responses that appeared to agree with those sentiments. Nobody, to my reading, has suggested turning in their fan card over this. Several people have cast aspersions on the new staff. But, again, here I am on the internet arguing semantics so, I suppose I shouldn’t throw stones.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I think you are blowing this a bit out of proportion. We are having a discussion about this. There is enough evidence at this point to confirm that Mitchell is wearing Heyman's number - it is on Goduke.com - it is not a hypothesis or a rumor. I think the underlying thought here is "I'm curious to hear why this happened" and "I kind of like the tradition of retired numbers staying retired so if there is not a good explanation, I'm not thrilled with this." There is a decent chance we will never get an answer. But I don't think anyone is saying 'this is a dealbreaker for me - I will never set foot in Cameron again because of this" or "Mitchell is dead to me for doing this."

    This is the nature of the internet. And issues like this are discussed a lot more intelligently and rationally here at DBR than in most other corners of the internet.
    I know you're not calling out Mitchell, but this is not on the kid. He probably has no idea who Heyman is (I barely do, he was 20 years before me, but I can understand the respect that should be, and used to be, shown). There are supposed to be adults in the room.

    It's about money. Just like the Off-Topic discussion of the golf LIV tour. Heyman has passed and will never give another dollar to Duke. Mitchell might.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    If they cared, they would have prefaced with an explanation rather than coming up with one when people are upset.

    Justification is different than explanation.

    Again, it's not a BIG deal, it's just one more small deal.
    To me, this IS A BIG DEAL. I think a number is honored to its fullest extent by retiring the number (with the name above it). I didn't like Bagley "borrowing" Ferry's number even if Ferry was OK with it. It shouldn't have come down to asking Ferry for permission. We obviously don't know the situation in this Mitchell/Heyman case. But if Mitchell was hell-bent on #25 knowing it was retired and hanging (and I don't believe he didn't know #25 was hanging, even if he didn't know who Heyman was), maybe Duke wasn't the place for him? Extreme???? I'm a *really* old-fart when it comes to these kinds of things... sorry

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SamHouston View Post
    Here is a great compromise. Because we are in-retiring a number, I think we need to add a replacement. Jim Spanarkel.
    You know, I was too young to follow Jim Spanarkel’s Duke career, but I do remember him playing pretty damn well in that magical NCAA tournament run in 1978. That was when I became a Duke fan. I had no idea who or what Duke was before that tournament. Spanarkel holds a special place in my sporting heart.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    I moved. Now 12 miles from Heaven, 13 from Hell
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    My god, that’s dizzying. What is it??
    The top row in Columbia blue are their retiredNumbers. The other rows are their honored jerseys with numbers that are not retired.

    Our system is retired numbers hanging inside the seating area, honored players that did not meet our retired jersey criteria are in the hall of honor. Both systems have “rules”, although I can’t quote them right now (and checking the one down the street would probably require a visit to an obscene web site.)

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    I know you're not calling out Mitchell, but this is not on the kid. He probably has no idea who Heyman is (I barely do, he was 20 years before me, but I can understand the respect that should be, and used to be, shown). There are supposed to be adults in the room.

    It's about money. Just like the Off-Topic discussion of the golf LIV tour. Heyman has passed and will never give another dollar to Duke. Mitchell might.
    Institutions rename bits of themselves all the time, often after the original donor (or pertinent family) has died. That’s even easier for naming situations that didn’t include money or a contract (Cameron, Wallace Wade), especially if/when someone comes along who wants to pay for something better. I’ve even heard of a whole university that changed its name from that of a core tenet of its religion (Trinity College) to honor tobacco barons. On a different note, in much of the world, burial plots are re-used, often after some amount of time (10 years, 30 years).

    Life is impermanent, grasshopper.

    I’m happy to wait for an explanation, but my best guess is that this was an unforced error on the part of Team Scheyer that had nothing to do with cash. While Duke has had a couple of big donations from its former players, basketball-playing alums are not known to be big donors to their former colleges; it’s absurd to think the underlying strategy was to finagle a donation from an 18 year old on the off-chance that he becomes a 15 year NBA pro.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Player introductions at Cameron!

    I'll never forget, "from Rockville Centre, NY, #25, Art Heyman. Coach Bubas thought enough of the young man to name him co-captain his second season. Freshmen were not allowed to play on the varsity team. I loved his hate to lose spirit.

    God bless you #25.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    I know you're not calling out Mitchell, but this is not on the kid. He probably has no idea who Heyman is (I barely do, he was 20 years before me, but I can understand the respect that should be, and used to be, shown). There are supposed to be adults in the room.

    It's about money. Just like the Off-Topic discussion of the golf LIV tour. Heyman has passed and will never give another dollar to Duke. Mitchell might.
    I’m not blaming Mitchell at all yet. I was just responding to the type of hyperbole the other poster seemed to be assigning to us with hyperbole that doesn’t exist.

    In Bagley’s case, based on what I know (key qualifier there!), I do place blame. He reasonably might not of known that 35 was retired but once someone said “we are going to call Danny and see what he thinks” he should have shut the whole thing down.

    I am very gradually accepting that Duke basketball has turned into the “West of Towerview Duke NBA training institute” separate from the rest of the university, but I still wishfully hope that some of these players are still embracing what Duke University as a whole and at least Duke basketball stand for and their traditions. Looking up into the rafters should mean something.

    Again, I hope this was just a brain fart by the staff. This is far from my biggest problem in life right now. I am curious to get an explanation but I am not counting on one unless a reporter specifically asks.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I’m not blaming Mitchell at all yet. I was just responding to the type of hyperbole the other poster seemed to be assigning to us with hyperbole that doesn’t exist.

    In Bagley’s case, based on what I know (key qualifier there!), I do place blame. He reasonably might not of known that 35 was retired but once someone said “we are going to call Danny and see what he thinks” he should have shut the whole thing down.

    I am very gradually accepting that Duke basketball has turned into the “West of Towerview Duke NBA training institute” separate from the rest of the university, but I still wishfully hope that some of these players are still embracing what Duke University as a whole and at least Duke basketball stand for and their traditions. Looking up into the rafters should mean something.

    Again, I hope this was just a brain fart by the staff. This is far from my biggest problem in life right now. I am curious to get an explanation but I am not counting on one unless a reporter specifically asks.
    Must spread those sporkzz. Your post sums up how I feel about the whole situation. Thanks.

    GoDuke!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I’m not blaming Mitchell at all yet. I was just responding to the type of hyperbole the other poster seemed to be assigning to us with hyperbole that doesn’t exist.

    In Bagley’s case, based on what I know (key qualifier there!), I do place blame. He reasonably might not of known that 35 was retired but once someone said “we are going to call Danny and see what he thinks” he should have shut the whole thing down.

    I am very gradually accepting that Duke basketball has turned into the “West of Towerview Duke NBA training institute” separate from the rest of the university, but I still wishfully hope that some of these players are still embracing what Duke University as a whole and at least Duke basketball stand for and their traditions. Looking up into the rafters should mean something.

    Again, I hope this was just a brain fart by the staff. This is far from my biggest problem in life right now. I am curious to get an explanation but I am not counting on one unless a reporter specifically asks.
    I agree again.

    This is just one more thing. But the list of things is getting longer and longer.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    My god, that’s dizzying. What is it??
    The cheats do not retire numbers (well, maybe a few). They have the status of honored numbers. That is the mass of ceiling laundry you see in the nose dome - honored numbers.

    Is it possible that these actually represent players who actually attended at least one legitimate college course during their career?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Institutions rename bits of themselves all the time, often after the original donor (or pertinent family) has died. That’s even easier for naming situations that didn’t include money or a contract (Cameron, Wallace Wade), especially if/when someone comes along who wants to pay for something better. I’ve even heard of a whole university that changed its name from that of a core tenet of its religion (Trinity College) to honor tobacco barons. On a different note, in much of the world, burial plots are re-used, often after some amount of time (10 years, 30 years).

    Life is impermanent, grasshopper.

    I’m happy to wait for an explanation, but my best guess is that this was an unforced error on the part of Team Scheyer that had nothing to do with cash. While Duke has had a couple of big donations from its former players, basketball-playing alums are not known to be big donors to their former colleges; it’s absurd to think the underlying strategy was to finagle a donation from an 18 year old on the off-chance that he becomes a 15 year NBA pro.
    Not saying they're counting on it. Just saying they're playing the odds.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    The cheats do not retire numbers (well, maybe a few). They have the status of honored numbers. That is the mass of ceiling laundry you see in the nose dome - honored numbers.

    Is it possible that these actually represent players who actually attended at least one legitimate college course during their career?
    The larger ones are the retired numbers. The rest are honored. Several of the retired numbers are from players who did not attend any classes.
    Hard at work making beautiful things.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I agree again.

    This is just one more thing. But the list of things is getting longer and longer.
    I emailed Coach Scheyer's admin assistant regarding my disappointment with #25 being unretired. Will see if I get a response.
    Basketball staff email addresses can be found on GoDuke.com.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA
    Mitchell has #25 as part of his twitter handle. You can't expect him to have to change that just because of something that happened years ago, can you? /sarc

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by BigWayne View Post
    Mitchell has #25 as part of his twitter handle. You can't expect him to have to change that just because of something that happened years ago, can you? /sarc
    There's this weird dichotomy. We want to be attached to numbers like Heyman's while telling Mitchell he can't be attached to his.


    For better or worse in the modern world, he likely wouldn't be at duke if we didn't let him wear 25.
    1200. DDMF.

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