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  1. #1
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    Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (spoiler thread)

    I wanted there to be a place where we could talk about this movie and its plot openly, without worrying about spoilers.

    If you have not seen the film, but plan to at some point, I strongly urge you not to read this thread further.

    You have been warned...

    Here is an image to help with spacing so folks won't accidentally see spoilers.

    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  2. #2
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    Dr Strange Multiverse (Spoilers)

    For those of you who have seen the movie.

    Let me start by echoing JE's comments. This movie is easily 50% horror. It's by far the darkest, scariest Marvel movie. There are some parts that are borderline over the top. As an adult, I liked it. Very different. But if I was a parent taking my 10 year old, I would be pretty upset because THERE IS NO WAY I would take a 10 year old to this movie, not unless you want them having nightmares for weeks. I think someone from 6-10 would be traumatized by it. It's that intense and scary at times.

    Overall, I liked it. I actually liked it more than the recent SpiderMan. Well, I guess I need to qualify that statement. I liked it better than the first half of the recent Spiderman. I think I would put it in the Top Tier of superhero movies (which is a big list), but near the very bottom of that tier, if not the very top of Tier 2.

    What I loved: the multiverse with the Illuminati. Give us a Fantastic Four with Krasinski. Make that happen ASAP!!! This was easily the best part.

    Also liked Wong, as always. And there was the typical good Marvel humor.

    Liked Ejiofor, but don't like that they never forwarded his story from the first Dr. Strange. It just got glossed over. I actually thought this movie was going to be about that (I was spoiler free), with Strange needing Wanda's help to beat him. Alas.

    What I didn't like so much:

    A) That Wanda so easily dispatched of the Illuminati. I mean, really? Captain Marvel is basically a god. You can't kill her that easily. And Wanda basically made Captain America nothing. If she was that powerful, she would have just killed Dr. Strange with ease. You can't make The Avengers a group that is super tough to kill, and then basically have a different version of them fight one witch and get easily wiped out. This was a mistake. Almost ruined the movie for me. Again, if that was the case, then Thanos would have immediately killed Captain America and Iron Man, then only had to deal with Thor and Captain Marvel.

    B) That Wanda was that dark, and it had nothing to do with Vision. I get that she liked being a mom. But she formed WandaVision to be with him. Where was he? I guess they couldn't afford the actor, but I find it a bit hard to believe that the kids that didn't show up until half way through WandaVision were all that she wanted. Also, she's an Avenger. Only now she's not. And is she dead? Clearly not, though they made it out like she was.

    C) Didn't like the third eye on Dr. Strange. But I guess that's part of the comic books, maybe?

    D) That they didn't really delve into the other Dr. Strange characters. It would have been more interesting to have our Dr. Strange be more like them, until he realized the course that put him on. Some development of character, you know?

    Overall was still good, and enjoyable. Much better than WW1984 (low bar). Better plot than Spiderman No Way Home

  3. #3
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    Funny that JasonEvans and Udaman started these multiverse multithreads at about the same time. Is there any way we could NOT merge them? Having two threads about this movie seems thematically appropriate.

  4. #4
    I read the plot Sunday on Wikipedia, didn't seem that scary to me.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post

    A) That Wanda so easily dispatched of the Illuminati. I mean, really? Captain Marvel is basically a god. You can't kill her that easily. And Wanda basically made Captain America nothing. If she was that powerful, she would have just killed Dr. Strange with ease. You can't make The Avengers a group that is super tough to kill, and then basically have a different version of them fight one witch and get easily wiped out. This was a mistake. Almost ruined the movie for me. Again, if that was the case, then Thanos would have immediately killed Captain America and Iron Man, then only had to deal with Thor and Captain Marvel.
    Ok. So Wanda isnít really just a witch. She has a natural ability to access chaos magic but this was really awoken by them experimenting with the mind stone on her. Also, Captain marvel isnít basically a god either. She got her powers from another infinity stone, the space stone. Wanda IS and will always be more powerful than Captain Marvel. Wanda IS by far the most powerful avenger we have seen on film. This has been shown by captain marvel matching thanos in combat while Wanda basically was going to tear him apart before the ship shot rockets at her from the sky.

    Strange can match Wanda to a certain extent because he uses order magic and is probably the second most powerful avenger we have seen on film. He is tough and has not got enough credit in previous films for his power. He actually defeats her in the comics on one occasion.

    So really, Wanda taking down avengers is on point for her ability. She IS that powerful and her arc has slowly been building to that.


    Also, this film is rated PG-13.
    Last edited by LasVegas; 05-06-2022 at 11:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    Still chewing on this, but feels like it really undermined Wanda's arc in WandaVision. The horror bits couldn't seem to decide whether they were going for actual horror or riffing on horror tropes which made it difficult for them to land (one part did make me jump admittedly but I forget which part).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Still chewing on this, but feels like it really undermined Wanda's arc in WandaVision. The horror bits couldn't seem to decide whether they were going for actual horror or riffing on horror tropes which made it difficult for them to land (one part did make me jump admittedly but I forget which part).
    At the end of WandaVision, she was using the darkhold in her astral form to search for a real version of Billy and Tommy. She wanted the real deal, not some fake reality. I think marvel couldíve done a way better job of actually explaining this in WandaVision though. She might have ended that fake reality but no way was she done with Tommy and Billy.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    At the end of WandaVision, she was using the darkhold in her astral form to search for a real version of Billy and Tommy. She wanted the real deal, not some fake reality. I think marvel could of done a way better job of actually explaining this in WandaVision though. She might have ended that fake reality but no way was she done with Tommy and Billy.
    No, I understood the end of WandaVision, but the transition from "wow terrorizing these people was awful I should stop" to "I'm going to brutally murder everyone indiscriminately" shouldn't have happened off-screen. I didn't buy it, at least. I understand why it happened (in-universe) I just don't find it compelling. Maybe it will hit better on a subsequent watch.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    So really, Wanda taking down avengers is on point for her ability. She IS that powerful and her arc has slowly been building to that.

    .
    Yup. Wanda seems like a fairly innocuous hex-casting superhero until you start really delving into how her powers work. Itís only then that you realize she is world-shakingly powerful.

    And then you start to realize that sheís mentally unstable.

    I dug the movie, liked it better than the first one. With all her powers, though, Wanda should conjure some less annoying kids.

  10. #10
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    Though I am not ordinarily a horror fan, I loved Raimi's use of horror tactics to ramp up the tension in the back half of the film. It gave the movie a totally different feel from the usual Marvel films and made the typical CGI-driven final battle feel a lot more fresh and enjoyable. Compare the excitement and thrills of this finale with the yawn educing mess that was two pyramid-sized gods battling with each other at the end Moon Knight. Actually, don't bother because you cannot compare them.

    Though I really enjoyed the film and loved Raimi's style on display, I can't help but think that the script was full of missed opportunity. Oh, it was a very good movie, probably in the top third of all Marvel movies, but my goodness, the chances they had to make something really great that juuuuust fell short. So, allow me to nitpick a bit at some of the things that could have been done better.

    Scarlet Witch - I thought Elizabeth Olsen was fabulous as Wanda/Scarlet Witch, but I agree with many folks who felt the character is poorly designed. I would have loved to have seen what drove her to be willing to kill many people in order to get her children. It is worth noting that part of the "get her children" plan involves MURDERING A VERSION OF HERSELF FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE! That's pretty strong stuff and the movie just glossed it over. As with pretty much all Marvel movies, the strength of the film is directly tied to the quality of the bad guy character. This film had a great performance and a really compelling bad guy, but because we have some much prior knowledge of her character, we needed to understand more of her motivations and what brought her to this dark place.

    Multiversal Madness - Playing off the above, I really wanted this movie to dive into the notion of meeting and interacting with over versions of yourself. There is some deep-seeded psychological stuff that comes with seeing another version of you and the movie just glossed it over. The end of the film was Strange against Strange... how did the movie not dive head first into the insanity and confusion of something like that?!?!

    Earth 616's Dr. Strange - The biggest thing this movie was missing was a real character arc for Dr. Strange -- something more thoughtful than, "are you happy?" The movie opens with a version of Strange who makes the decision to kill America Chavez (but fails). The movie ends with Strange deciding he must find a way to save her instead. Throughout the film we hear the Illuminati and America talk about other versions of Strange across the multiverses, almost always other versions who succumbed to evil or failed to always "do the right thing." Ok, what was it about the Earth 616 version of Strange that sets him apart from all the others? I mean, this (and Wanda's journey to evil) should have been the core of the film. But, it was just glossed over by folks asking Strange if he was happy. A real missed opportunity.

    America Chavez - It seems crazy that after talking about how much more we neeeded from other characters that I would be on that same beat again, but America Chavez was barely a character in this film. I mean, had she merely been a doohickey that could teleport between worlds I'm not sure how the movie is different (I think Strange would still care if Wanda wanted to murder a version of herself on steal children so he would still be motivated to stop her). I'm guessing she will play a role in future films but I feel utterly unattached to her at this point.

    The Illuminati - Of course, I enjoyed seeing these other characters on screen and I know fanboys are going crazy for FFour and X-Men movies now, but I thought the film was derailed a bit to bring in the Illuminati and I hated all of them dying at Wanda's hands. As Udaman said, we have been programmed to think of these superheroes as super powerful and she dispatched them with such ease. I think there could have been a middle ground where she incapacitated one of two of them and she killed one or two of them and the film continued with Wanda chasing Strange/America without having Wanda kill the entire Illuminati. That said, the way she killed Black Bolt, by blowing the back of his head off because he could not expel his power word, was amazing!

    -Jason "that will do for now..." Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    That said, the way she killed Black Bolt, by blowing the back of his head off because he could not expel his power word, was amazing!
    Iím just happy that Black Boltís real name being Blackagar Boltagon made it into a movie.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    No, I understood the end of WandaVision, but the transition from "wow terrorizing these people was awful I should stop" to "I'm going to brutally murder everyone indiscriminately" shouldn't have happened off-screen. I didn't buy it, at least. I understand why it happened (in-universe) I just don't find it compelling. Maybe it will hit better on a subsequent watch.
    Yeah, I can agree to that. More on screen transformation would of been nice for her character. I was just fine with the WandaVision ending knowing that a motherís love for their children is so great and Wanda was in such a dark place.


    It also looks like Marvel may have missed the mark on the build up of her powers. I see a lot of takes about how she should not of taken care of the Illuminati but this is just on point for her abilities.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    It also looks like Marvel may have missed the mark on the build up of her powers. I see a lot of takes about how she should not of taken care of the Illuminati but this is just on point for her abilities.
    I mean, they literally showed her create an alternate reality for an entire town (and have shown off her strength at other points in the movies as well, for people who didn't see the show). Not sure what more they could have done, this is just people being silly. And she did all that before having a powerful dark magic artifact at her disposal.

  14. #14
    I liked the Illuminati stuff. I liked that she killed them all, and that the MCU is telling us "Do not get too attached to these other universes Ė the main one is the audience's universe, and the one that you should care the most about". I was afraid the multiverse plots would cheapen the main universe a bit, so if they keep that message I am happy. I also like that the council was not Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, etc Ė that would have felt cheap.

    I also like how much most of the post-Avengers stuff really respects that importance of the Thanos story (Loki, What If, and Moon Knight do not, which is part of why I like them less than the others). Everything else has been really driven by the fallout of the Avengers movie, which is nice and makes sense.

    My main complaint is that Wandavision should have had a darker ending to set this up (by the way, isn't the "bad guy" from that show basically proven right by this?). It would have taken away some of the surprise of who the villain was (which did very much surprise me, good work keeping that under wraps despite it being revealed 20 minutes in), but made it make a lot more sense.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    My main complaint is that Wandavision should have had a darker ending to set this up (by the way, isn't the "bad guy" from that show basically proven right by this?). It would have taken away some of the surprise of who the villain was (which did very much surprise me, good work keeping that under wraps despite it being revealed 20 minutes in), but made it make a lot more sense.
    The argument in defense of Marvel that I've sen is that they didn't want to tip their hand that Wanda would be the villain. I don't think this is a very good explanation.

    The other explanation I've seen is that they weren't really sure what they were going to do when they originally filmed WandaVision, which explains why it doesn't really jive with MoM and why the scene at the end with her and the Darkhold felt kind of tacked on (in an effort to steer the story more in the direction that had at that point chosen for MoM).

    I've come around to the idea that my problem with MoM isn't MoM itself but rather that WandaVision was a poor setup for it, but as a big fan of the show I can't find that very satisfying. I do look forward to rewatching MoM again without the weight of any expectations or hopes.

  16. #16
    Saw it last night, and was decidedly underwhelmed.

    First off, the Wanda-as-bad-guy felt FAR too sudden. Yeah yeah, I get that she was reading the Darkhold at the end of Wandavision, but she really needed a bit more development to get there, given that she was basically back to good guy Avenger Wanda at the end of Wandavision.

    Didn't like the battle at Kamar-Taj... I hate the whole "magic is a thing, but that just means magic bows and magic shields and magic swords" thing... like, regular items, but they are MAGIC. I know that, visually, that is the easiest to "sell" but I still don't like it.

    Hated that there was no mention of Vision or Agatha. I know that Wandavision came mid-production on Dr. Strange, but they really needed to go back and "fit them together" a bit more neatly.

    I DID love that moment that Wanda straight up broke the 4th wall for a second.

    The different multiverses looked fantastic.

    America Chavez didn't get to do much in this one.

    Honestly, there was so much spectacle that it lacked the grounded nature that make most Marvel movies hit home. The best Marvel movies may have big set action pieces, but they also have a whole lot of heart... it is largely what makes them different than the DC films. But this one... it just didn't feel like it had much heart. If they had played Wanda as less of a "true evil" villain and more as a heartbroken good guy, maybe it would have been more effective.

    Was REALLY looking forward to the Illuminati, but ultimately found them a bit jarring. Seeing John K. as Reed Richards in particular felt... strange. I did like that Professor X had a moment of "I might die but I sense good here"... I mean, he IS Professor X! Black Bolt... that's a tough translation into live action. Patrick Stewart is looking old!

    Yeah, I don't know... I hope that Thor blows everything out of the water, because so far, other than Spider Man, the post-Infinity Marvel movies have not been big hits for me.
    Last edited by Lord Ash; 05-16-2022 at 09:24 AM.

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