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  1. #61
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    scottdude8 is online now Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke2x View Post
    Amtrak only travels from Spokane to the East via Chicago once or twice a week. Amtrak works in the Acela corridor because of population density.

    Gonzaga benefits a lot from the current setup. I don't see them doing better in the NCAA tournament because they flew across the country to play Villanova and Georgetown. I also don't see them getting extra eyeballs with that schedule to warrant the expense. Gonzaga used to get an ESPN Saturday night game with Memphis when Calipari was there. Perhaps a 2 game Big East-WCC challenge with SMC the weekend of the Duke-UNC game that includes the Big Monday spots might work. That would also prevent the UVA/Syracuse/MD scheduled losses we always have.
    I wonder why Gonzaga just doesn't try to get into the Mountain West, a group of mid-majors for whom the lack of a football program wouldn't be a potential dealbreaker, but a consensus better conference than the WCC that makes sense geographically...
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  2. #62
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    Gonzaga's alternative is to greatly beef up its out of conference schedule...but looking at last year's schedule, once conference play is under way they don't have many dates for OOC games...

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    I wonder why Gonzaga just doesn't try to get into the Mountain West, a group of mid-majors for whom the lack of a football program wouldn't be a potential dealbreaker, but a consensus better conference than the WCC that makes sense geographically...
    It was discussed with some degree of seriousness in 2018, but Gonzaga backed away.

    It only makes sense if you’ve never had to get from Spokane to Laramie on a tight schedule in the dead of winter.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Gonzaga's alternative is to greatly beef up its out of conference schedule...but looking at last year's schedule, once conference play is under way they don't have many dates for OOC games...
    I'm not sure any school has a tougher non-conf schedule than the Zags, year in and year out.

    Also, the WCC was really good this year. Arguably the best it has ever been. Zags just laid an egg against the Razorbacks.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I'm not sure any school has a tougher non-conf schedule than the Zags, year in and year out.
    That may be but in conjunction with their conference schedule it just isn't enough (IMO, of course).

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I'm not sure any school has a tougher non-conf schedule than the Zags, year in and year out.
    Yeah, but once you hit January, their schedule starts to fall off the cliff. While virtually all the other national title contenders are testing themselves twice a week against teams with rosters full of top 100 recruits and quite often teams with multiple NBA players, Gonzaga is largely playing undersized teams that really struggle to find more than a few quality players. Patrick Tape could barely get off the bench at Duke (and would have only played mop-up minutes had he stayed this year) and yet he was the starting center for one of the top teams in the WCC this season.

    This season, which was about as good as any in the history of the WCC, may have been an outlier. Most years, Gonzaga is plays maybe 2 or 3 games against tournament teams once you hit January. Does it hold them back? Does it hinder their development? I don't know for certain but logic would seem to dictate that one way to get better and prepare to beat the best is to play high caliber opponents. Here are the number of WCC teams not named Gonzaga to make the NCAA tourney in recent years:

    2022 - 2
    2021 - 1
    2020 - tournament cancelled
    2019 - 1
    2018 - 0
    2017 - 1
    2016 - 0
    2015 - 1
    2014 - 1
    2013 - 1

    I think you get my drift...

    Want to know how many of those WCC teams were seeded higher than a #5 seed? Zero.

    So, once Gonzaga reaches the Sweet 16, it is playing teams better than anyone it has faced in three months... I cannot imagine how that would not be a problem for them. Maybe it is why they have failed to win a national title despite being considered one of the best teams in the land more often than not over the past decade.
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    I wonder why Gonzaga just doesn't try to get into the Mountain West, a group of mid-majors for whom the lack of a football program wouldn't be a potential dealbreaker, but a consensus better conference than the WCC that makes sense geographically...
    I don't think it makes much sense for Gonzaga to join another non-major conference.

    As things are, they have no trouble earning lofty seeds by scheduling aggressively in the non-conference and then mopping up during WCC play. And they're on ESPN all the damn time, getting plenty of exposure as it is.

    Joining the MWC gives them no meaningful competitive advantages and likely only a moderate financial bump. Also, the MWC just signed a new TV deal for football and basketball that runs through 2026, so it might not be able to leverage the hypothetical addition of Gonzaga for years. The current MWC deal averages $45m/year and Gonzaga would be a 12th team (and only playing basketball, whereas the deal is football + basketball).

    The Big East is in the middle of a deal too, but has since added UConn and - hypothetically - Gonzaga as a 12th team, and its deal is purely basketball. On top of TV money, the Big East is a stronger conference that gets more conference pool money from NCAA Tournament shares.

    Anyway, the Big East makes plenty of sense (geography aside), whereas a small step up in conference strength and money to the MWC seems unnecessary. Gonzaga should go big or stay home.

  8. #68
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    Personally, I think the Pac-12 would be crazy not to admit Gonzaga and grant them a waiver from participating in football. It could boost the conference's basketball profile up to the level of the Big Ten and Big 12. UCLA, Arizona, Gonzaga... those are three of the top programs of the past two decades. USC has been on the rise lately and you know Oregon is going to start to bring in the recruits now that they have some Nike NIL money behind them. I see it as a no-brainer. What is the downside to the Pac 12?
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Personally, I think the Pac-12 would be crazy not to admit Gonzaga and grant them a waiver from participating in football. It could boost the conference's basketball profile up to the level of the Big Ten and Big 12. UCLA, Arizona, Gonzaga... those are three of the top programs of the past two decades. USC has been on the rise lately and you know Oregon is going to start to bring in the recruits now that they have some Nike NIL money behind them. I see it as a no-brainer. What is the downside to the Pac 12?
    Well, "history" and tradition mitigate against it. Here is my memory of the evolution of PAC-12: first, there was the Pacific Coast Conference, which had nine schools -- one was Idaho. Yes, Idaho. Moreover, Montana was a member up until 1950. Then, the conference fell apart as the four California schools plus Washington formed the AAWU. Although there were other issues, it was primarily economics.

    Three PCC members were later admitted to the group -- all but Idaho (which is only a 90-minute drive from Gonzaga). Don't take it personal, Idaho, but... Then the two Arizona schools were added and two more(Utah and Colorado) in the last conference land grab. Moreover, the conference spurned BYU, reportedly because of its ban on Sunday contests, but who knows?

    IMHO (where the H drifted away into the atmosphere), with that history, there is no way a basketball-only school is getting invited to join the PAC-12.

    Kindly,
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Personally, I think the Pac-12 would be crazy not to admit Gonzaga and grant them a waiver from participating in football. It could boost the conference's basketball profile up to the level of the Big Ten and Big 12. UCLA, Arizona, Gonzaga... those are three of the top programs of the past two decades. USC has been on the rise lately and you know Oregon is going to start to bring in the recruits now that they have some Nike NIL money behind them. I see it as a no-brainer. What is the downside to the Pac 12?
    Pac 12, without football, does seem like the best choice for all concerned--if the money is clearly positive for the PAC-12. which may be unlikely. Most substantive risk would be that the program slides whenever Mark Few leaves. As a relatively small Catholic school (1000 freshman) and a fairly small grad/professional school presence, it may also not really fit in with the other PAC universities, which are largely big state universities.

    But don't poo poo Gonzaga on the gridiron. In their 50 years of football, they've lost under a hundred games (134-99-20). In their last bowl game, they lost to the eventual national champs. The coach (Ray Flaherty) and running back (Tony Canadeo) from that team are in the pro football hall of fame; Flaherty, as a player, was the first pro player to have his number retired (by the NY Giants). He'd also been a teammate of Houston Stockton, whose grandson turned out to be a good basketball player. Another Gonzaga coach had been a Notre Dame quarterback whose leading receiving target was Knute Rockne.

    No reason not to field a team of scrappy undergrads just because the school paused the program for WWII.




    PS
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    Last edited by johnb; 04-07-2022 at 01:59 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I'm not sure any school has a tougher non-conf schedule than the Zags, year in and year out.

    Also, the WCC was really good this year. Arguably the best it has ever been. Zags just laid an egg against the Razorbacks.

    I see a LOT of room for improvement. This year they played Dixie State, Alcorn St., Bellarmine, Central Michigan, Tarleton State, Merrimack and Northern Alabama, winning by an average of 34 points...sure, you can point out that Duke has a bunch of easy games, but the ACC schedule is usually a good more robust than the WCC. Gonzaga played UCLA, Duke, Texas, Texas Tech and Alabama which would be a good augmentation to the tough conference schedule they clearly don't have.

    KenPom has their adjust SOS at #93, which goes a long way towards explaining why they are seeking better competition.

    I agree with others, though, that perhaps trying to get into the PAC as a hoops only school would be good for them, but the Conference of Champions (ha) has a lot of logical symmetry now, not sure why they'd feel compelled to invite Gonzaga.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I see a LOT of room for improvement. This year they played Dixie State, Alcorn St., Bellarmine, Central Michigan, Tarleton State, Merrimack and Northern Alabama, winning by an average of 34 points...sure, you can point out that Duke has a bunch of easy games, but the ACC schedule is usually a good more robust than the WCC. Gonzaga played UCLA, Duke, Texas, Texas Tech and Alabama which would be a good augmentation to the tough conference schedule they clearly don't have.

    KenPom has their adjust SOS at #93, which goes a long way towards explaining why they are seeking better competition.

    I agree with others, though, that perhaps trying to get into the PAC as a hoops only school would be good for them, but the Conference of Champions (ha) has a lot of logical symmetry now, not sure why they'd feel compelled to invite Gonzaga.
    That's fair. I thought they only had a couple of cupcakes; not the ~7-8 that you pointed out.

    The Zags are in a tough place. Football makes more $$$, and the PAC12 shouldn't allow the Zags entry unless they have a functioning football team. Another alternative is the Zags create their own conference that only includes fairly strong basketball teams. Kinda like what the Big East did a few years back when all their strong football teams left for the ACC.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I see a LOT of room for improvement. This year they played Dixie State, Alcorn St., Bellarmine, Central Michigan, Tarleton State, Merrimack and Northern Alabama, winning by an average of 34 points...sure, you can point out that Duke has a bunch of easy games, but the ACC schedule is usually a good more robust than the WCC. Gonzaga played UCLA, Duke, Texas, Texas Tech and Alabama which would be a good augmentation to the tough conference schedule they clearly don't have.

    KenPom has their adjust SOS at #93, which goes a long way towards explaining why they are seeking better competition.

    I agree with others, though, that perhaps trying to get into the PAC as a hoops only school would be good for them, but the Conference of Champions (ha) has a lot of logical symmetry now, not sure why they'd feel compelled to invite Gonzaga.
    Again, to me the problem isn't who they play but when they play them.

    We played Kentucky. And we played Campbell. We played both of them early. Then we spent January and February playing a weak ACC that still had UNC, Notre Dame, UVA, Wake, etc, one or twice.

    Gonzaga played a great non conference schedule. A long, long time ago.

    And then ran the gauntlet of a two game conference tournament, specifically geared to be an easy win.

    I absolutely believe that move to Big East or Pac 10 would mean for a tougher team in March.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Again, to me the problem isn't who they play but when they play them.

    We played Kentucky. And we played Campbell. We played both of them early. Then we spent January and February playing a weak ACC that still had UNC, Notre Dame, UVA, Wake, etc, one or twice.

    Gonzaga played a great non conference schedule. A long, long time ago.

    And then ran the gauntlet of a two game conference tournament, specifically geared to be an easy win.

    I absolutely believe that move to Big East or Pac 10 would mean for a tougher team in March.
    yeah, for sure timing is an issue...I'm still skeptical they'll make a move, but if they do I agree it will help them...they evidently think so themselves.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Yeah, but once you hit January, their schedule starts to fall off the cliff. While virtually all the other national title contenders are testing themselves twice a week against teams with rosters full of top 100 recruits and quite often teams with multiple NBA players, Gonzaga is largely playing undersized teams that really struggle to find more than a few quality players.
    If Gonzaga wants to play tougher competition in Jan/Feb, they could probably schedule a few tough non-conference games during this time. Sure, there are not a lot of openings for non-conference games during this period and they might have to occasionally play 3 games in a week* to do it, but I suspect Gonzaga could find 3-4 mid-level or above P6 teams willing to squeeze in an extra, high-profile game.




    *or strongarm the WCC to schedule a few conference games in Dec.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Again, to me the problem isn't who they play but when they play them.

    We played Kentucky. And we played Campbell. We played both of them early. Then we spent January and February playing a weak ACC that still had UNC, Notre Dame, UVA, Wake, etc, one or twice.

    Gonzaga played a great non conference schedule. A long, long time ago.

    And then ran the gauntlet of a two game conference tournament, specifically geared to be an easy win.

    I absolutely believe that move to Big East or Pac 10 would mean for a tougher team in March.
    Not to mention, the ACC wasn't really as weak as the metrics showed. I think it's fair to say the conference as a whole developed late, after the poor early season metrics and publicity of a down year had taken hold. Once we were all only playing in conference games we couldn't get out of the statistical hole, although a number of teams got much better.
    Rich
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    If Gonzaga wants to play tougher competition in Jan/Feb, they could probably schedule a few tough non-conference games during this time. Sure, there are not a lot of openings for non-conference games during this period and they might have to occasionally play 3 games in a week* to do it, but I suspect Gonzaga could find 3-4 mid-level or above P6 teams willing to squeeze in an extra, high-profile game.




    *or strongarm the WCC to schedule a few conference games in Dec.
    Yeah, I suspect that to do that, they would need to create more space in the conference schedule.

    Most teams have one MAYBE two "open dates" in January/February. Finding top teams that sync up with you for those one or two spots is gonna be complicated. Finding three or four...

  18. #78
    Finally gonzaga would be playing some reasonable competition, but how does the Big East for them make sense travel-wise!?

    Why not the Pac-12?

    Really odd.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Yeah, but once you hit January, their schedule starts to fall off the cliff. While virtually all the other national title contenders are testing themselves twice a week against teams with rosters full of top 100 recruits and quite often teams with multiple NBA players, Gonzaga is largely playing undersized teams that really struggle to find more than a few quality players. Patrick Tape could barely get off the bench at Duke (and would have only played mop-up minutes had he stayed this year) and yet he was the starting center for one of the top teams in the WCC this season.

    This season, which was about as good as any in the history of the WCC, may have been an outlier. Most years, Gonzaga is plays maybe 2 or 3 games against tournament teams once you hit January. Does it hold them back? Does it hinder their development? I don't know for certain but logic would seem to dictate that one way to get better and prepare to beat the best is to play high caliber opponents. Here are the number of WCC teams not named Gonzaga to make the NCAA tourney in recent years:

    2022 - 2
    2021 - 1
    2020 - tournament cancelled
    2019 - 1
    2018 - 0
    2017 - 1
    2016 - 0
    2015 - 1
    2014 - 1
    2013 - 1

    I think you get my drift...

    Want to know how many of those WCC teams were seeded higher than a #5 seed? Zero.

    So, once Gonzaga reaches the Sweet 16, it is playing teams better than anyone it has faced in three months... I cannot imagine how that would not be a problem for them. Maybe it is why they have failed to win a national title despite being considered one of the best teams in the land more often than not over the past decade.
    Really well put. Been saying this for years, their conference schedule really masks their real ranking year in year out.

    They get the #1 seed by virtue of not losing, rather than beating good teams.

    Whereas all the other P5 teams beat on each other for months on end.

    Glad to see they are finally putting themselves in a competitive conference.

    Pleasantly surprised that they would forgoe what has been an almost automatic #1 seed every year.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukehk View Post
    Finally gonzaga would be playing some reasonable competition, but how does the Big East for them make sense travel-wise!?

    Why not the Pac-12?

    Really odd.
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