Russia & Ukraine

[dudog84]

The Guardian should be fairly trustworthy. Don’t trust rags like The Sun or The Daily Mail/Mirror…

https://pressgazette.co.uk/trust-in-news-uk/

I didn't read the link (skydog saved me from that), but there's a difference between an article and a column. Was it clearly one or the other? Authors have become pretty good at blurring that line.

[niveklaen]

I think that the problem with the article is that it suggests that the pervasive corruption in the Ukraine (a well sourced and almost certainly true problem) means that Z's banning of opposition parties for being Russian sympathizers was a pretext to entrench his power. This is absurd. The opposition party is run by a pro-russia oligarch with close ties to Putin. He banned a pro russian party during a russian invasion. The existence of corruption elsewhere in the Ukraine's government is does not change that. This article is what-about-ism at its finest.

[Kdogg]

I don't know how trustworthy The Guardian is. Maybe a Brit can chime in here. My assessment was more about the article itself. It was well sourced and I seemed credible.

They are as credible as them come. They lean left on the editorial side but are independent on the the reporting. More importantly they have no owner and take no advertising. It’s funded by a trust and donations. It’s setup to be independent of commercial or political influence.

[Section 15]

I think that the problem with the article is that it suggests that the pervasive corruption in the Ukraine (a well sourced and almost certainly true problem) means that Z's banning of opposition parties for being Russian sympathizers was a pretext to entrench his power. This is absurd. The opposition party is run by a pro-russia oligarch with close ties to Putin. He banned a pro russian party during a russian invasion. The existence of corruption elsewhere in the Ukraine's government is does not change that. This article is what-about-ism at its finest.

Wait a minute... The Guardian article was "First published on Wed 4 Feb 2015 01.00 EST." The two articles from the NYT were dated 2016. They should be carbon dated, not used as evidence of the current situation. They have absolutely nothing to do with the Zelenesky presidency. As you say, to imply that they are relevant to the current situation is absurd.

I'm no expert, but I doubt that if Ukraine were such a hotbed of corruption that the citizens would be putting up the fight against an invader that they are.

[Ultrarunner]

I have so much more to say on this but it probably veers out of bounds so this is probably sufficient but if you are deeply worried about corruption and bribery I would encourage folks to stop worrying about Ukraine and focus your attention more locally.

I would second this.

[OldPhiKap]

At minimum, regionally.

[Acymetric]

At minimum, regionally.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply only at the local municipality level (although obviously that too), the word I was looking for was "domestically".

[Skydog]

.

I'm no expert, but I doubt that if Ukraine were such a hotbed of corruption that the citizens would be putting up the fight against an invader that they are.

Huh? Mexico is a ‘hotbed of corruption’ (corruption is pervasive in the ranks of their politicians and their law enforcement agencies) but I’m 100% certain their citizens would still do everything in their power to repel an invader intent on destroying their nation.

No nation’s morality is just black and white - there are always shades of grey. Because all have deep flaws, including ours. But those flaws don’t mean their occupants wouldn’t give their lives to fight off being conquered by an imperialist neighbor. And rightfully so.

[Section 15]

Huh? Mexico is a ‘hotbed of corruption’ (corruption is pervasive in the ranks of their politicians and their law enforcement agencies) but I’m 100% certain their citizens would still do everything in their power to repel an invader intent on destroying their nation.

No nation’s morality is just black and white - there are always shades of grey. Because all have deep flaws, including ours. But those flaws don’t mean their occupants wouldn’t give their lives to fight off being conquered by an imperialist neighbor. And rightfully so.

Well, I did say that I'm no expert

My main point was that the legitimate sources of Ukrainian corruption were significantly old, closer to the end of Yanukovych's (Putin's buddy) presidency than Zelensky's. What's the saying - Nothing's older than yesterdays newspaper?

Finally, your hypothetical about Mexico is sketchy compared to the actuality of Ukraine. If you want to know how Mexico actually did respond to imperialistic invasion, study the manifest destiny era of American expansion in the 1840s and 50s. California was part of Mexico (the territory included parts of what is now Arizona and New Mexico). The Mexican government, such as it was, was corrupt, divided into factions, and just not working. Americans invaded from both land and sea. Some of the Mexicans fought the "invaders," some saw better opportunities working with the Americans. The result --- Disneyland.

A good, readable history of these events can be found in Kearny's March by Winston Groom --- yes, Forest Gump Winston Groom. I think he was a much better writer of narrative history than a novelist, but apparently Hollywood disagrees with me.

[cato]

Well, I did say that I'm no expert

My main point was that the legitimate sources of Ukrainian corruption were significantly old, closer to the end of Yanukovych's (Putin's buddy) presidency than Zelensky's. What's the saying - Nothing's older than yesterdays newspaper?

Finally, your hypothetical about Mexico is sketchy compared to the actuality of Ukraine. If you want to know how Mexico actually did respond to imperialistic invasion, study the manifest destiny era of American expansion in the 1840s and 50s. California was part of Mexico (the territory included parts of what is now Arizona and New Mexico). The Mexican government, such as it was, was corrupt, divided into factions, and just not working. Americans invaded from both land and sea. Some of the Mexicans fought the "invaders," some saw better opportunities working with the Americans. The result --- Disneyland.

A good, readable history of these events can be found in Kearny's March by Winston Groom --- yes, Forest Gump Winston Groom. I think he was a much better writer of narrative history than a novelist, but apparently Hollywood disagrees with me.

A neighborhood in San Diego is (perhaps indirectly) named after General Kearny. The Army established Camp Kearny, in what is now Kearny Mesa, in the WWI era. During WWII the Marines established an air station there, which the Navy took over after the war.

Which, of course, lead to the Navy establishing the Top Gun flight school at Miramar on Kearny Mesa and Tom Cruise giving some unnamed Russian pilots the bird.

I guess Kearny’s march was even more impactful than some people realize.

[Section 15]

A neighborhood in San Diego is (perhaps indirectly) named after General Kearny. The Army established Camp Kearny, in what is now Kearny Mesa, in the WWI era. During WWII the Marines established an air station there, which the Navy took over after the war.

Which, of course, lead to the Navy establishing the Top Gun flight school at Miramar on Kearny Mesa and Tom Cruise giving some unnamed Russian pilots the bird.

I guess Kearny’s march was even more impactful than some people realize.

The conquest of California apparently had many moving part, not all of them were moving in the same direction. It's a fascinating story, full of bravery and betrayal, battles and surrenders. It's a period of American history that tends to get passed over with a few well worn bromides.

Incidentally, Groom's book also contains the most detailed and stomach churning description of the Donner party I have ever read. I don't consider myself squeamish, but it is a description I wish I could unread, including the "fun fact" that one of the survivors later opened a restaurant. yeah...

[Skydog]

The conquest of California apparently had many moving part, not all of them were moving in the same direction. It's a fascinating story, full of bravery and betrayal, battles and surrenders. It's a period of American history that tends to get passed over with a few well worn bromides.

Incidentally, Groom's book also contains the most detailed and stomach churning description of the Donner party I have ever read. I don't consider myself squeamish, but it is a description I wish I could unread, including the "fun fact" that one of the survivors later opened a restaurant. yeah...

Did the restaurant offer a Donner Special?

[Section 15]

Did the restaurant offer a Donner Special?

Don't think I'll have the prime rib, just a salad for me, and hold the Russian dressing...

Just trying to get back on topic

[PackMan97]

Don't think I'll have the prime rib, just a salad for me, and hold the Russian dressing...

Just trying to get back on topic

You realize that Russian dressing isn't actually... Ah, never mind.

[Skydog]

You realize that Russian dressing isn't actually... Ah, never mind.

Normally you would be correct. But we are talking about the Donner Special - who knows what secret, possibly imported, ingredients are included?

[dudog84]

Normally you would be correct. But we are talking about the Donner Special - who knows what secret, possibly imported, ingredients are included?

Turns out the Donner Party should have done more Russian.

(sorry, that was in bad taste)

[CameronBlue]

Normally you would be correct. But we are talking about the Donner Special - who knows what secret, possibly imported, ingredients are included?

Probably cost an arm and a leg.

[Skydog]

Turns out the Donner Party should have done more Russian.

(sorry, that was in bad taste)

That was a terrible joke. Would spork if I could.

[PackMan97]

It sounds like the battle to retake kherson has begun. Good luck, Ukraine.

[Skydog]

It sounds like the battle to retake kherson has begun. Good luck, Ukraine.

Putin’s army is getting its butt kicked. A bit shocking, really.