Russia & Ukraine

[camion]

Any chance the alleged Russian spies arrested in Hawaii could come into play in a swap?

Linky

Or is the timing merely coincidental?

[Ultrarunner]

Any chance the alleged Russian spies arrested in Hawaii could come into play in a swap?

Linky

Or is the timing merely coincidental?

Since the allegation have not yet been made in their charging, I don't think a swap will be happening for these two.
I also would not swap the arms dealer. I prefer he rot.

[Stray Gator]

Is there any dispute that Griner violated the law of Russia when she entered the country? If she were wrongfully accused of being in possession of cannabis when she entered Russia, then I would support efforts to secure her release. But so far as I am aware, neither she nor anyone else denies that she did in fact have the drugs in her bag. If that is true, then I have difficulty understanding why the US government should seek to relieve her of responsibility for violating Russian law, much less offer to free a dangerous international criminal who supports terrorists in exchange. (Of course, if Russia is imposing a more severe penalty than authorized by its own law, or is refusing to apply an exception under its law that would, for example, excuse someone with a valid prescription from their home country, then intervention on her behalf, at least to the extent of demanding fair application of that country's own law, would be justified.)

For decades, Americans have been persistently warned about violating the drug laws of other countries when traveling abroad. The hazards of being busted for drugs and locked up abroad have been hammered into our consciousness through public service announcements, and movies, and TV reality shows. No American citizen who travels abroad can plausibly claim to be unaware of the substantial risk they assume if they enter a foreign country in possession of something that is classified by that country as contraband. For that reason, I believe it is properly the responsibility of each individual traveler to ensure that they are not violating any local law while they are within the jurisdiction of another government.

If Russian law makes any possession of cannabis a crime and prescribes a severe penalty for violating that law, why does it matter -- not just for Griner, but for purposes of any tourist who gets arrested there -- whether such possession would be subject to a less severe punishment, or even regarded as legal, in the United States? To put the shoe on the other foot, would we feel obliged to heed a demand by a foreign government that their citizens who violate US law while present in this country should be tried and sentenced based on their laws rather than pursuant to US law? As I recall, this very issue has come up in the context of applying the death penalty to crimes committed in the US that would not be punishable by death in the person's homeland.

In short, I believe that if you aren't prepared to play by another country's rules, then you shouldn't subject yourself to their jurisdiction by going there. If you do choose to go there and violate their laws, however, I believe you should be prepared to accept responsibility. If Griner did in fact enter Russia with cannabis, regardless of whether it would be an authorized possession in the US or elsewhere, then I don't see why she shouldn't bear responsibility rather than imposing on our government an obligation to bail her out.

[And I don't believe this post constitutes PPB commentary, because my point on the issue of personal responsibility applies to any US citizen -- regardless of gender, race, religion, or celebrity status -- who is caught violating the laws of any foreign country while traveling abroad.]

[Bluedog]

Is there any dispute that Griner violated the law of Russia when she entered the country? If she were wrongfully accused of being in possession of cannabis when she entered Russia, then I would support efforts to secure her release. But so far as I am aware, neither she nor anyone else denies that she did in fact have the drugs in her bag. If that is true, then I have difficulty understanding why the US government should seek to relieve her of responsibility for violating Russian law, much less offer to free a dangerous international criminal who supports terrorists in exchange. (Of course, if Russia is imposing a more severe penalty than authorized by its own law, or is refusing to apply an exception under its law that would, for example, excuse someone with a valid prescription from their home country, then intervention on her behalf, at least to the extent of demanding fair application of that country's own law, would be justified.)

For decades, Americans have been persistently warned about violating the drug laws of other countries when traveling abroad. The hazards of being busted for drugs and locked up abroad have been hammered into our consciousness through public service announcements, and movies, and TV reality shows. No American citizen who travels abroad can plausibly claim to be unaware of the substantial risk they assume if they enter a foreign country in possession of something that is classified by that country as contraband. For that reason, I believe it is properly the responsibility of each individual traveler to ensure that they are not violating any local law while they are within the jurisdiction of another government.

If Russian law makes any possession of cannabis a crime and prescribes a severe penalty for violating that law, why does it matter -- not just for Griner, but for purposes of any tourist who gets arrested there -- whether such possession would be subject to a less severe punishment, or even regarded as legal, in the United States? To put the shoe on the other foot, would we feel obliged to heed a demand by a foreign government that their citizens who violate US law while present in this country should be tried and sentenced based on their laws rather than pursuant to US law? As I recall, this very issue has come up in the context of applying the death penalty to crimes committed in the US that would not be punishable by death in the person's homeland.

In short, I believe that if you aren't prepared to play by another country's rules, then you shouldn't subject yourself to their jurisdiction by going there. If you do choose to go there and violate their laws, however, I believe you should be prepared to accept responsibility. If Griner did in fact enter Russia with cannabis, regardless of whether it would be an authorized possession in the US or elsewhere, then I don't see why she shouldn't bear responsibility rather than imposing on our government an obligation to bail her out.

[And I don't believe this post constitutes PPB commentary, because my point on the issue of personal responsibility applies to any US citizen -- regardless of gender, race, religion, or celebrity status -- who is caught violating the laws of any foreign country while traveling abroad.]

I think the rationale is that the "punishment doesn't fit the crime" and it's "un-American." That is, we view it as basically cruel and unusual punishment and likely the severity is increased because of her citizenship. And she's "high profile" so politicians want to score political points. Also, while the above applies to Griner (and I agree with you about the fact that having drugs in your luggage when entering a country with strict drug laws is "hammered' into our conciousness and incredibly stupid), can the same be said of Whelan? He's been in jail for multiple years for being a spy/espionage and I don't think the United States believes he committed any crime. He has never acknowledged any guilt (unlike Griner who acknowledges the mistake) and simply said he had personal photos on a flash drive.

[OldPhiKap]

I’m with Stray (as usual).

[budwom]

Yeah...I don't want to get us into politics, but I've been a bit peeved about the widespread assertions that "the government is doing nothing" to free Griner. The state of U.S.-Russian relations is obvious (or should be) and to make it seem like someone could snap his fingers and get her home is either disingenuous or remarkably stupid.

For anyone contemplating a test of other countries' drug laws, may I suggest a viewing of Midnight Express, a truly horrifying tale based on a true story. A Turkish prison makes Motel 6 look like the Connaught in London.

(I once had my car almost completely dismantled by U.S. Customs at the border with Canada during the 1976 Olympics in Montreal)...something I won't soon forget.

[aimo]

I’m with Stray (as usual).

Ditto!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Yeah...I don't want to get us into politics, but I've been a bit peeved about the widespread assertions that "the government is doing nothing" to free Griner. The state of U.S.-Russian relations is obvious (or should be) and to make it seem like someone could snap his fingers and get her home is either disingenuous or remarkably stupid.

For anyone contemplating a test of other countries' drug laws, may I suggest a viewing of Midnight Express, a truly horrifying tale based on a true story. A Turkish prison makes Motel 6 look like the Connaught in London.

(I once had my car almost completely dismantled by U.S. Customs at the border with Canada during the 1976 Olympics in Montreal)...something I won't soon forget.

The movie Brokedown Palace from the late 90s also had a similar theme.

I have not been following this situation too closely but based on my knowledge of it, assuming she is receiving the normal sentencing for the crime she admits to having committed, I agree with Stray.

[Stray Gator]

I think the rationale is that the "punishment doesn't fit the crime" and it's "un-American." That is, we view it as basically cruel and unusual punishment and likely the severity is increased because of her citizenship. And she's "high profile" so politicians want to score political points. Also, while the above applies to Griner (and I agree with you about the fact that having drugs in your luggage when entering a country with strict drug laws is "hammered' into our conciousness and incredibly stupid), can the same be said of Whelan? He's been in jail for multiple years for being a spy/espionage and I don't think the United States believes he committed any crime. He has never acknowledged any guilt (unlike Griner who acknowledges the mistake) and simply said he had personal photos on a flash drive.

Two points in response, both of which I thought would have been clear from my initial post:

First, regarding the Whelan case, given the fact that he denies any wrongdoing, and in the absence of reliable evidence to prove his guilt, I support the efforts to secure his release. If Griner were in the same position, I would advocate helping her, too. But so far as I'm aware, no one is disputing that she is guilty of violating Russian drug law in Russian territory. For me, that factual distinction is dispositive.

Second, unless Russia is attempting to apply a different standard to Griner than it applies to others who violate its drug laws -- either in the determination of guilt or in the severity of punishment -- then IMO it is, and properly should be, immaterial whether her treatment by Russian authorities could be regarded by people in the US or other countries as "un-American." By what rationale or authority are we entitled to demand that a US citizen who is arrested in Russia for violating Russian law should be treated with greater leniency than anyone else arrested in Russia for the same crime? As I said, if she is being treated more harshly or being sentenced to a more severe punishment than the customary application of Russian law would allow, then I would support intervention by the US government on her behalf, at least to insist upon an evenhanded application of Russia's own laws and rules of procedure. But absent such discriminatory treatment, I fail to see how the US government, or anyone else, has standing to complain about Russian authorities applying Russian law to crimes committed within their jurisdiction.

Let me emphasize again: I believe it is the responsibility of citizens traveling abroad to comply with the laws of any country they visit. And just as in this country, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I keep hearing people say that Griner simply "made a mistake," or at worst "did something stupid." To me, those are nothing more than weak excuses to justify the pleas of sympathizers to relieve her of full responsibility -- excuses that no law enforcement officer or judge in this country would accept if citizens of another country complained about the application of US law to one of their citizens who was busted in the States. IMO, what Griner did was not merely a stupid mistake that should be dismissed as inconsequential.

Even though I believe laws that criminalize possession of cannabis by adults are an abomination, anyone who chooses to violate such laws knowingly assume the risk that they will be caught and subjected to the prescribed penalties. In Griner's case, the transgression is even less excusable, because she had to realize that, as an American citizen and a major sports celebrity, she would be a prominent target for Russian authorities. In the final analysis, I simply do not believe that the US should pay the price for her irresponsible behavior.

[missfinch]

I’m with Stray (as usual).

Yep, also on Team Don’t be a Dumb***. Along with not carrying illegal drugs, don’t plan a hike where you may accidentally wander into Iran.

[TampaDuke]

Let me emphasize again: I believe it is the responsibility of citizens traveling abroad to comply with the laws of any country they visit. And just as in this country, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I keep hearing people say that Griner simply "made a mistake," or at worst "did something stupid." To me, those are nothing more than weak excuses to justify the pleas of sympathizers to relieve her of full responsibility -- excuses that no law enforcement officer or judge in this country would accept if citizens of another country complained about the application of US law to one of their citizens who was busted in the States. IMO, what Griner did was not merely a stupid mistake that should be dismissed as inconsequential.

Even though I believe laws that criminalize possession of cannabis by adults are an abomination, anyone who chooses to violate such laws knowingly assume the risk that they will be caught and subjected to the prescribed penalties. In Griner's case, the transgression is even less excusable, because she had to realize that, as an American citizen and a major sports celebrity, she would be a prominent target for Russian authorities. In the final analysis, I simply do not believe that the US should pay the price for her irresponsible behavior.

I generally agree, but does your view change if Griner, by virtue of being a high-profile celebrity, has been allowed to come and go in Russia with the hashish oil in the past, despite its illegality? If that's what happened,* then her detention, to me anyway, feels more like retaliation for the US position regarding Russia's Ukraine stance. Should the US get more involved in that scenario? I'd lean more toward the affirmative.

*I have no information that's what happened, but I could envision such a scenario.

[budwom]

I generally agree, but does your view change if Griner, by virtue of being a high-profile celebrity, has been allowed to come and go in Russia with the hashish oil in the past, despite its illegality? If that's what happened,* then her detention, to me anyway, feels more like retaliation for the US position regarding Russia's Ukraine stance. Should the US get more involved in that scenario? I'd lean more toward the affirmative.

*I have no information that's what happened, but I could envision such a scenario.

As far as I know she did not mention that in her defense

[TampaDuke]

As far as I know she did not mention that in her defense

Me neither, but I have no doubt that, were it true, she wouldn't mention it if her end game is leniency or having the countries broker a deal.

[Acymetric]

I generally agree, but does your view change if Griner, by virtue of being a high-profile celebrity, has been allowed to come and go in Russia with the hashish oil in the past, despite its illegality? If that's what happened,* then her detention, to me anyway, feels more like retaliation for the US position regarding Russia's Ukraine stance. Should the US get more involved in that scenario? I'd lean more toward the affirmative.

*I have no information that's what happened, but I could envision such a scenario.

Would not change the view for me, to be honest. I fully support efforts to bring Griner home (and generally would support efforts to bring Americans home when they are subject to laws/penalties we would consider draconian here even if they are legitimate penalties in the country where the offense was committed), but I don't think I would support releasing a convicted arms dealer to do it. If I took weed over to Russia do you think they would trade an arms dealer for me? "High profile celebrity thinks they are above the law until they find out they aren't*" simply isn't a sympathetic storyline for me.

*Of course, if we trade an arms dealer for her she would have found out that she is in fact quite above the law.

[-jk]

Please keep the focus on Russia and Ukraine.

-jk

[Stray Gator]

I generally agree, but does your view change if Griner, by virtue of being a high-profile celebrity, has been allowed to come and go in Russia with the hashish oil in the past, despite its illegality? If that's what happened,* then her detention, to me anyway, feels more like retaliation for the US position regarding Russia's Ukraine stance. Should the US get more involved in that scenario? I'd lean more toward the affirmative.

*I have no information that's what happened, but I could envision such a scenario.

It may depend on what you mean by "allowed." If Russian authorities were clearly aware that she was regularly bringing in small amounts of contraband for personal use and somehow, by their conduct, led her to believe that they did not intend to enforce the law against her, then an argument could be made that she acted in reliance on their forbearance; and to that extent, it might be contended that they tacitly "allowed" her to violate the drug law, at least for personal use. But I have no idea whether Russian law recognizes such an exception to criminal liability for what Anglo-American lawyers might call a "waiver/estoppel" defense. If not, then the actions of Russian authorities in "overlooking" her prior transgressions would not alter my views.

In any event, I'd regard any claim that she should be exonerated because they may have allowed her to get away with it in the past as a weak straw, even if the change in the Russians' enforcement policy was retaliatory. I assume that in Russia, as in this country, there is some latitude in the enforcement of laws based on what we call prosecutorial discretion, the exercise of which does not require compelling justification.

[tommy]

A lot of this discussion seems to rest upon an assumption that Russia is a nation of laws. Laws that are applied in a straightforward, consistent, and evenhanded way to its citizens, without regard to politics, favoritism, or the whims of law enforcement, politicians, the intelligence community, oligarchs, or the like. I do not happen to think that is an assumption based in reality.

[Bluedog]

As we're trying to move on, just wanted to say that I don't disagree with you Stray (I guess I could get rid of the double negative and just say I agree!). I was merely providing the perspective/rationale of those proposing a specific viewpoint, which I don't think is a completely crazy viewpoint. Nonetheless, I take no exception to your latest reply. I do not know the answer if a different standard was applied to Griner or not though -- have no insights there.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Nine year sentence for Griner. Completely expected. Now we'll see how quickly the proposed swap is expedited.

[Phredd3]

I do not know the answer if a different standard was applied to Griner or not though -- have no insights there.

Applying a different standard requires there to be a standard. I've Googled trying to find the answer to this very question, and several sources I've found suggest that the drug laws in Russia are frequently not employed in anything like a standard way. I'm certainly no Russia expert, but in an authoritarian state, lots of "legal" things can happen that have nothing to do with justice.

I tend to think Griner is a political prisoner, period.