Russia & Ukraine

[PackMan97]

Would you mind explaining how Russia is in the right? Was Ukraine wearing a short skirt and a tight sweater just asking for it?

Never should have had those drinks with Putin and gone up to his hotel room.

I don't understand either. There is always two sides to a story, but i don't se how the Russian side has any legitimate reasons.

[wavedukefan70s]

Would you mind explaining how Russia is in the right? Was Ukraine wearing a short skirt and a tight sweater just asking for it?

What i should have typed was within in thier rights .im not touching the political side but so much as per mod request.
Previous regime is pro moscow a western country a bit before crimean crises jas meddled in thier politics .pro western regime installed check .ukrainian promise not to join nato .since 2017 ukraine taking steps to join nato in the future .if im russia i do not wish nato weapons offensive or defensive on my doorstep . Your defense time significantly lowers not good if your russian. I mean we didnt want missles in cuba either. Putin creatung his own buffer zone i understand .
Energy and recources several companies with heavy political ties amd investments .which would impact russian energy production sales .which i believe will benefit some western elected officials
. This wasnt a problem pre zelenskyy .until his predecessor regime was toppled with western interference. If i cant keep the west out with the current regime .well you have to fix it .diplomacy or war.

They are not part of nato .we do not belong there period .

I personally understand and don't have a problem with it. Most of the reasoning
Is within the realm of rational thought process. The Russians have been lightly
Attacking the ukraine with minimal casualties .which is a smart play if you can accomplish it .less death less hate.

The more pressure that is put on russia
Thr faster they have to move on ukraine
From. A strategic standpoint our interference will ultimately be the cause of more Ukrainians to die than just letting them handle thier buisness.

I believe they are well within thier rights to protect thier interests which
Is control of the ukraine.

We do what we do .as long as they arent invading poland Germany ect.then that becomes a different issue .

[CDu]

I believe they are well within thier rights to protect thier interests which
Is control of the ukraine.

But it's not "protecting their interests" at this point. Ukraine is an independent country, and has been for ~30 years. Russia certainly may have an interest in controlling Ukraine. In fact, their actions make it quite obvious that they do. That doesn't mean it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Ukraine hasn't infringed on Russia's rights. Russia has infringed on Ukraine's rights.

[grad_devil]

I believe they are well within thier rights to protect thier interests which
Is control of the ukraine.

One point of clarification - it's not the Ukraine - it's Ukraine. You know, the sovereign country that Russia has invaded without provokation.

Basically what CDu said above. Nothing is ok about entering a sovereign country just because you don't like the way they're conducting their own business.

[jv001]

But it's not "protecting their interests" at this point. Ukraine is an independent country, and has been for ~30 years. Russia certainly may have an interest in controlling Ukraine. In fact, their actions make it quite obvious that they do. That doesn't mean it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Ukraine hasn't infringed on Russia's rights. Russia has infringed on Ukraine's rights.

I guess it would have been like the US invading Cuba back in the day. I mean really invading Cuba.

[bludev]

This point could very well have been discussed previously in this thread, if it has please forgive me for rehashing it. That being said, I have been wondering (maybe "worrying" is a better term) about what would happen if Putin feels cornered; as may very well happen if sanctions have the desired effect of crippling the Russian economy (and now with talk of sanctioning Russia's oil & gas business, the chance of that crippling would be even greater). Obviously, Putin does not want to be seen as loosing to the West, so what would a desperate Putin do? Plus, if the general Russian populous were to blame the West for their economic disaster ("were" should probably be "will") wouldn't it just create fuel to keep the status quo of nationalistic, western hating Russian leaders even if Putin is somehow not that leader. Wasn't the severity of sanctions against Germany as part of the Treaty of Versailles one of the contributing factors for the rise of Hitler and his ilk. Here's some interesting reading on the subject of a "cornered Putin". Maybe "pie in the sky", but a play-out as described by Noah Smith (in the article) would be ideal.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newslett...corner/623882/

Aware of one of the discussions happening on this thread, let me say I am in no way thinking Putin is justified in what he/they're doing in Ukraine and I am of the belief that extreme penalties against Putin and Russia are justified, just wondering where that proverbial line is, as hard as it is to say, "could we be overreacting with sanctions".

[budwom]

The much discussed 40 mile convoy is bogged down, and some are attributing it to, among other things (than basic Russian incompetence) mud season in Ukraine. I can't relate to the bloodshed there, but I can relate to mud season, and I hope they sink to their axels.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Aware of one of the discussions happening on this thread, let me say I am in no way thinking Putin is justified in what he/they're doing in Ukraine and I am of the belief that extreme penalties against Putin and Russia are justified, just wondering where that proverbial line is, as hard as it is to say, "could we be overreacting with sanctions".

No. There are only two alternatives, one of which is to do nothing, which ain't happening. The other is all out world war.

[Wander]

This point could very well have been discussed previously in this thread, if it has please forgive me for rehashing it. That being said, I have been wondering (maybe "worrying" is a better term) about what would happen if Putin feels cornered; as may very well happen if sanctions have the desired effect of crippling the Russian economy (and now with talk of sanctioning Russia's oil & gas business, the chance of that crippling would be even greater). Obviously, Putin does not want to be seen as loosing to the West, so what would a desperate Putin do? Plus, if the general Russian populous were to blame the West for their economic disaster ("were" should probably be "will") wouldn't it just create fuel to keep the status quo of nationalistic, western hating Russian leaders even if Putin is somehow not that leader. Wasn't the severity of sanctions against Germany as part of the Treaty of Versailles one of the contributing factors for the rise of Hitler and his ilk.

But are we closer in analogy to the Treaty of Versailles phase or the Hitler invades his first country phase?

I hear you and share your concern... but our current response feels like the right call. Not ideal, just the least-bad out of a menu of different bad options.

[wavedukefan70s]

But it's not "protecting their interests" at this point. Ukraine is an independent country, and has been for ~30 years. Russia certainly may have an interest in controlling Ukraine. In fact, their actions make it quite obvious that they do. That doesn't mean it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Ukraine hasn't infringed on Russia's rights. Russia has infringed on Ukraine's rights.

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

[CDu]

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

It is not within their right to do so. They may choose to do it, that doesn't make it within their right. Just like it would be wrong if we were to do so to Mexico.

Just because we disagree with what a country near us does within their own country doesn't mean we have the right to just up and invade their country.

[PackMan97]

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

We can't apply modern values to things that happened 150+ years ago. That conversation never ends well. We live in a different world today than we did at the time we were "negotiating" the border between the US and Mexico. It's not something I've studied so I can't really tell you much about it. I could read Wikipedia and learn more. What I do know is those were very different times in the world and I don't think they are appropriate to the current Russia vs Ukraine conflict. You certainly aren't going to imply that because at one point in the past the US enslaved people, that it would be ok if Russia enslaved people today. Different world, different rules. Thank goodness.

[CameronBornAndBred]

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

I must have missed when we amassed almost 200,000 troops in Texas and California and invaded Mexico.
And no, it's not within Russia's rights to invade another sovereign nation.

[PackMan97]

I can relate to mud season, and I hope they sink to their axels.

The need to call Matt's Off Road Recovery. I admit, I'm addicted to this channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fA6l_F8Ylc

[ClemmonsDevil]

I have avoided weighing in on purpose in order to compose my thoughts on this, because much of this from an individual poster sounds like Russian apologism. My hope is he is doing a really bad job of saying that things that occur on the Russian border with non NATO countries is under the Russian sphere of influence and we would never commit troops under that situation. That's what I've been saying on here and I believe that that is a political and Military reality. We aren't going to war for a non-NATO country on the border with Russia, even when Russia is demonstrably wrong in this incursion. That's a reality. What it sounds like you're saying is anything Russia wants to do on their border is okay. It's not okay. This is violating the sovereignty of another country. Us not committing troops is not tacit approval. It's a political reality and one that we understand. But that doesn't make this okay.

[tommy]

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

In your mind, what is the source of their right to control Ukraine, in particular by invading it militarily and installing a government Russia likes better? From what does that right emanate in your mind? Is it some sort of "natural" right? Was that right granted to them by someone or something at some point in the past? You can't just say "it's within their rights" without being able to point to a source from which that right comes. So what is it?

Please no "what about?" ism. Just saying "the US did something similar at one point, or many points, in the past" is not answering the question. The US was in many peoples' minds, including mine, wrong in many instances in which it has acted, not in self-defense, to control the destiny of other nations and peoples. Those wrongs in no way justify what Russia is doing now. So the question is: what gives Russia the right in your mind to do what they're doing?

[dudog84]

One point of clarification - it's not the Ukraine - it's Ukraine. You know, the sovereign country that Russia has invaded without provokation.

Basically what CDu said above. Nothing is ok about entering a sovereign country just because you don't like the way they're conducting their own business.

That's the main error you found in that post? Actually, that's the one thing the poster is probably using correctly in his view, for it's not Ukraine the sovereign country to him (or Putin), but "the ukraine" (note he did not even capitalize it), a region in Europe. Truly mind-boggling.

[Rich]

If I had to guess, WaveDukeFan is making an equivalence argument between this situation and our incursion in Iraq. For those of you interested in developing arguments here (I am not one), I think that would be more persuasive to the OP than the analogy to Mexico.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

it is within their right to do so. Sort of like we don't have the right to invade Mexico to protect our interests just because they might do something we don't like.

Havent we done those things . I guess thats another discussion.

We're not invading Mexico. And they shouldn't be invading Ukraine. Your comparison makes no sense, unless you are living hundreds of years ago.

You are really flailing here. I think 99% of America agrees that what Russia did was wrong. This is the first time in a while that this many Americans are agreeing on an issue. There is disagreement about what we should now be doing (and this is reasonable, as this action is unprecedented for these times), but this agreement is pretty universal. You still have not clearly explained your logic (if there is any).

I think we should move the conversation along as I don't think we are going to get a decent answer and we are all going to get massive headaches banging our heads against the wall. I'm sure someone will say that I am trying to silence a dissenting opinion, but we have given him plenty of chances and we are going nowhere here. Though I do appreciate his effort to make his grammar, punctuation and spelling marginally better...

[CDu]

If I had to guess, WaveDukeFan is making an equivalence argument between this situation and our incursion in Iraq. For those of you interested in developing arguments here (I am not one), I think that would be more persuasive to the OP than the analogy to Mexico.

I assume you are referring to the post-9/11 invasion? Because the first time it was in defense of the equivalent to Ukraine (Kuwait) and nothing like what Russia doing. Actually, what Russia is doing is much like what Iraq did.

The Iraq invasion post 9/11 was wrong. But even then, the excuse made was in response to an act of war on the US. Now, there was no connection between Iraq and those terrorist attacks. But that was the primary justification.

But yeah, us invading Iraq was also wrong.