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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    While turnovers and offensive rebounding are the reasons we lost; K’s decision making leaves a lot to question. For starters he went to man-to-man on the last possession of regulation, and they scored
    I thought going man was the right call. Up 2 in that situation, the thing you want to avoid most is a 3. We fooled them a bit by switching to man, and that threw them off. We forced a circus shot that nearly hit the top of the backboard... and it went in. It happens.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by proelitedota View Post
    I'm going to get flamed for this but I think Scheyer is a better in game coach than K.
    Not from me.Scheyer was masterful against Wake Forest.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Furniture View Post
    On the bright side Duke didn’t lose by 28...
    They also didn't mail it in midway through the game like the guys from Chapel Hill did.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    It would have been cool to win, but Duke was out played for the majority of the 2nd half by FSU. It would have been a “the band is on the field!” or Doug Flutie Hail Mary type wins. Which are fun as hell for fans but it would have masked how punched in the mouth Duke was tonight in several statistical categories. FSU attempted 18 more shots than Duke. FSU grabbed 43 rebounds to Duke’s 37. FSU grabbed 19 (!) offensive rebounds to Duke’s 7. Duke turned the ball over 15 (!) times to FSU’s 5. Duke registered 2 steals to FSU’s 9. Duke shot the ball well from 3 (10-23) and were 12-16 from the line in regulation and 2-2 in OT. Had they been 13-16 from the line in regulation they would have won. Banchero had another double double with 20 and 12 but he didn’t attempt a shot in the 2nd half until about under 5 minutes left I believe. FSU did a good job denying him the ball in the post and collapsing 2-3 defenders down onto him at times. Also, why was he bringing the ball up the court so much with Wendell and Keels in the game?

    I sure hope Keels doesn’t miss much time. But I would not be shocked to see him out Saturday vs Syracuse.

    Duke was out toughed on the boards so many times tonight that it’s crazy they almost won this game. Getting into the zone surprisingly made Duke rebound better. FSU hit tough shot after tough shot down the stretch and in OT. Credit to them. The last possession by them, I thought Roach should have not tried to draw the charge and just play good defense by staying in front of his man with 6 seconds left on the shot clock. The last Duke possession, Banchero needs the ball. Wendell tried driving into the trees in the paint there and was stripped. Theo John, I like his attitude and effort. But he’s limited in his skill set. He missed a few close range shots tonight. But he did knock down 2 free throws, grab 3 boards, and get a good block. After getting stuffed at the rim himself.

    Wendell continues to be an enigma. 4 turnovers and 2 assists. Yet 3-3 from deep and 4 rebounds. 13 points total. He was an All American and first team All ACC before the Covid pause in my book. He’s not either currently to me.

    After losing to Miami, FL some posters said they bet Duke would win their first outright ACC regular season title since 2006 by 3 games over any other competition this year. I would take that bet now.

    This is a good but not elite Duke team, yet. They have some serious talent and future NBA players but flaws. They’re not a good rebounding team right now. Their two captains either don’t play many minutes or are in a slump right now. I am tempering my expectations a bit after this tough January. Obviously, with all the talk about making this a special season for Coach K given it’s his last season, many of us had our eyes set on an ACC regular season title, ACCT title, 1 seed, final four, and national title. All of those are still possible, but not probable. But there’s still time to make adjustments and watch Coach K do his best to get this team firing on all cylinders.

    14-3, 4-2 isn’t bad and I expect Duke will fall to 10th or 11th in the polls next week tops.

    Duke dropped from 10 to 11 overall on Kenpom tonight. The offense moved from 10 to 9. The defense dropped from 19 to 22. To get where we want to be this year, I feel like the defense needs to be top 10-15 by the end of the year. 22nd just ain’t gonna cut it.

    Let’s Go Duke!
    I mentioned upthread that this team being just outside the top 10 feels about right. Good, but not yet great. We can get there but the margin of error for a #1 seed is really small now. I don't think we can afford more than two more losses, and we have a really tough schedule ahead, including two 3-game road trips. I'd say about a 1 in 3 chance for the regular season title now, but I like our chances for an ACCT title, one last one for Coach.

  5. #65
    Yeah hard disagree on Baker/John. Baker's obviously a very limited player (4 fouls in 19 minutes as a wing is not ideal), and probably not the game to play him extended minutes when we're getting manhandled on the glass. John just isn't it...significant net negative on offense (and kills spacing for Paolo), and not the gamechanger on D to make up for it (not to mention a very poor rebounder for a true 5). Would definitely avoid checking Henry Coleman's stats in SEC play...

    Quote Originally Posted by KandG View Post
    Almost managed to steal a game they had no business winning in regulation, still had a good opportunity to pull it out in overtime, but just bad decisions at the worst times at the end.

    Announcers mentioned Keels’ injury forced the game-changing zone, but I thought the zone should have come sooner, Keels injury or not. Seminoles’ length and pressure and ability to administer chaos at both ends had our team reeling, the zone was necessary to halt their momentum.

    To me, the key came at the end of the first half, when we had a chance to end the half on an extended run and build the lead to 7 or 8. Instead, Paolo loses track of the clock, lead stays at five, then we turn the ball over three times to start the second half and give up every offensive rebound in sight.

    Only one field goal in the first 8 minutes of the second half, plus we got into the bonus with 10 minutes left in the game. Frankly, we should have been down by much more, we were forcing things way too much and playing like our talent should have been enough to overwhelm FSU the same way it did Wake and NC State.

    Thought Joey and Theo gave us good minutes even if they missed makeable shots, they made small plays that kept FSU from completely running away with it.

    Roach also ran the team excellently down the stretch and for most of OT, and Paolo and Mark almost stole it away for us at the end, but FSU made a great shot to take it to OT.

    Thought we executed well on most of our possessions in OT but the real issue is we couldn’t defend well enough. Giving up two open threes to Mills (the second one was an especially soft close out by Griffin) and Williams giving up a layup to Cleveland off the press, plus that brutal foul by Roach in the final seconds. In general we fouled too much and played too soft for prolonged periods of the game.

    Kudos to Florida State, protected their home floor and demonstrated all the grit of a Leonard Hamilton team. Tallahassee is always tough but even with the loss of Keels, fell like this was a game for the taking once we steadied our play.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Coballs View Post
    If you have Laettner and Hurley you don't need to call a time out on the final possession. But with this unexperienced group on the road K must get them together and call the play. Unbelievable that Banchero was used as the inbounder and then didn't touch the ball again. Inexcusable really.
    I agree with that - this team is not experienced so it is not like we have a senior leading the way on the final play. And I think the general philosophy behind not calling the TO is so the other team cannot get set. In this case they had plenty of time to get set anyway, so call the TO. Having a guard drive right into their gigantic front line just makes no sense.

    We showed a lot of heart in the comeback and the move to the zone was smart, but it should not have come to that. For so much of the game they were outhustling and out-toughing us. Though he didn't add a lot to the stat sheet, I liked how Theo came in and gave us some muscle and heart to counter this.

    I really liked seeing Paolo asserting himself to bring us back - he wanted to be the alpha.

    Hopefully Keels is OK and we will bounce back strong this weekend. Covid is behind us.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Maturin View Post
    I thought going man was the right call. Up 2 in that situation, the thing you want to avoid most is a 3. We fooled them a bit by switching to man, and that threw them off. We forced a circus shot that nearly hit the top of the backboard... and it went in. It happens.
    This exactly. M2M is 100% the right call there so you eliminate the uncontested 3 pointer and you live with a tough 2 pointer for them to tie. Doesn't matter if you are home or away team in that situation on defense you play the right set that gets you to OT. On the other side offensively if in that same situation you have the chance to feel how the game has been going and make a decision to win or go to OT. If the roles were reversed I would have expected K to draw something up for a winning three and to avoid OT. As the away team I always try to avoid OT especially in a game like tonight where you feel like it's stealing the win.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Monday-morning quarterbacking... I'm sure the thought process was that Hamilton was drawing up a play for the zone, so surprise him with the M2M. To be honest, not a horrible idea, and the player made a pretty tough, contested shot.
    If we had stayed in a zone and one of their guys had made a three over it to win in regulation, everybody would have said 'why didn't K go back to the M2M? It's too easy to get a three over the zone.'
    No way to win against the monday-morning quarterback.
    100%. It was a reasonable strategy by K and Evans hit a fairly tough layup over Banchero's outstretched arms. It happens. We lost because we gave FSU 18 extra FG attempts, not because K switched back to M2M.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by simplyluvin View Post
    I mentioned upthread that this team being just outside the top 10 feels about right. Good, but not yet great. We can get there but the margin of error for a #1 seed is really small now. I don't think we can afford more than two more losses, and we have a really tough schedule ahead, including two 3-game road trips. I'd say about a 1 in 3 chance for the regular season title now, but I like our chances for an ACCT title, one last one for Coach.
    This is a team that will need to peak late to have a shot at a title. A lot will need to come together. There is talent and potential there, but it is pretty raw and there are some flaws that may be hard to fix in the season. Also special teams usually find a way to win close games. I see talent but not special yet. We shall see if they can make a run.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Given how many people here are praising Duke's heart in the comeback, I suspect you are in the minority in your assessment of those three words. I'd like to have you carry that message to Coach K and see how he feels about it.

    Starting to think that the ACC is having a down year, so each team is gonna come out guns blazing, trying to get their signature W against our team.

    It's gonna be a serious grind for the next six weeks for our team.
    Sorry, but Florida State brought all three of those elements in spades to us in the first and second half. We did not match their emotion, energy, or toughness until very late in the game. Had we matched them all the way through we win.

    Sure, we can talk about the heart the team had coming back after Keels went down in the last few minutes of regulation and overtime. I will not take that away from them. But that does not negate the fact that before that point we got our butts handed to us in all three of those categories for the first half and at least the first 15 minutes of the second half. There is simply no denying this.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    2015 team came together late, and their defense jumped multiple notches DURING the tournament. So it could happen.
    We have much more frequently seen teams that were really strong at the beginning of the season and then came back to earth than the other way around, but it is not impossible.
    Tough to lose two games bu a total of two points, though. Hope it lights a fire under them rather than pulls the rug out from beneath them. Different teams respond to this kind of thing in different ways.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    5 thoughts...

    1. Losing 2 of 3 (if it stays that way) in mid-season is not a kiss of death. It sucks, yes. But it's not the end of the world. But did I say that it sucks?

    2. I actually saw a bright side when Roach got called for the block in OT. Duke would get the ball back with a shot to win. I totally agree, though, with other posters - give Banchero the damn ball. Moore had FSU's only big on him. Banchero could have cut to the hole, taken a pass from Moore and hit the winner or got fouled. I like Moore and will forever be grateful for hitting the shot against Carolina, but I want Banchero to take the last shot in any game this year.

    3. Keels was shooting poorly, much worse than the rest of the team. So offensively, him going out wasn't so key to the game. But Duke needs Keels back, especially defensively long term. He had Duke's only 2 steals in the game.

    4. Keels going out made Roach the de facto replacement. I personally think with all the other weapons Duke had on the floor, Roach should never have taken the first Duke shot on any possession (to quote the great Norman Dale, "Don't shoot the ball unless you are under the basket, all by yourself!"). Griffin had 5, Roach had 6 (albeit Roach played 6 more minutes). Roach should channel an inner Wojo... He also needs to get out of the way of Duke's bigs on the boards. I admire the moxy, but once during the last minutes of regulation, he was down low and in Williams' way, and the ball got knocked out off of Roach.

    5. The OT was actually generally great OT from a competitive perspective. I was happy Duke didn't fold up right away when FSU hit that 3 to start OT (I was thinking about the OT loss to KU in the Elite 8 when that happened). But as I said, though losing 2 of 3 isn't the kiss of death, the end of the OT just sucked.

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    2015 team came together late, and their defense jumped multiple notches DURING the tournament. So it could happen.
    We have much more frequently seen teams that were really strong at the beginning of the season and then came back to earth than the other way around, but it is not impossible.
    Tough to lose two games bu a total of two points, though. Hope it lights a fire under them rather than pulls the rug out from beneath them. Different teams respond to this kind of thing in different ways.
    I just hope this lights the fire in them that has them coming out as the hunter in each game, and not the hunted like they were tonight. That’s the real difference in the game this evening, imho.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Chicago
    I hate the level of physicality teams are allowed to play with against us.

    I don’t watch basketball to watch slaps holds and pushes.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Atlanta 'burbs
    On the ACC bright side, we are giving some of our ACC brethren some Q1 wins. I am not in favor of this trend.

  16. #76

    Roach and the Floater

    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    5
    4. Keels going out made Roach the de facto replacement. I personally think with all the other weapons Duke had on the floor, Roach should never have taken the first Duke shot on any possession (to quote the great Norman Dale, "Don't shoot the ball unless you are under the basket, all by yourself!"). Griffin had 5, Roach had 6 (albeit Roach played 6 more minutes). Roach should channel an inner Wojo... He also needs to get out of the way of Duke's bigs on the boards. I admire the moxy, but once during the last minutes of regulation, he was down low and in Williams' way, and the ball got knocked out off of Roach.



    9F
    Generally I agree, and I hold my breath every time he goes to the basket. Somehow he jumps without getting any height and has his layup blocked way more than any Featured PG at Duke than I recall. But he did hit that same floater against Gonzaga to take the final lead, as I recall. SO I was excited when he took it.
    I thought the offense was more focused with him back at the point, but even when he was at his best, there is a certain naivete in our back court players (Keels, Roach, Moore)

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    This team has lost three games by 8 combined points. We don’t need a complete transformation to become a great team. Incremental improvements in protecting the ball on offense, eliminating one or two defensive miscues per game, and finding more creative ways to get Paolo the ball in dangerous spots more consistently can take this team to the next level. All of those are very doable. It sucks to lose this game, for sure, but I’m still confident this team has another level it can reach this season.

    Gotta have a healthy Keels though.

  18. #78
    Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    I think he was kinda Forced to go zone without Keels.. As a matter of fact, it killed me that after our great run at end of regulation to get ahead by 2 we went back to M2M for the last possession... just to make sure they scored. They have the athletes to beat us off the dribble - why go M2M on that possession? STAY ZONE, it was working so well


    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Monday-morning quarterbacking... I'm sure the thought process was that Hamilton was drawing up a play for the zone, so surprise him with the M2M. To be honest, not a horrible idea, and the player made a pretty tough, contested shot.
    If we had stayed in a zone and one of their guys had made a three over it to win in regulation, everybody would have said 'why didn't K go back to the M2M? It's too easy to get a three over the zone.'
    No way to win against the monday-morning quarterback.
    "Dance with who brung ya baby" - there is a reason that quote exists. If I am running the football 7 yards per play off right tackle... Guess what? I running off right tackle the next 5 plays until they stop it.

    I don't doubt we wanted to surprise them. Like surprising them by not having Banchero take a shot for 14 minutes... or surprise them by Banchero bringing it up the floor to wear himself out. SURPRISE! people are too scared to say K makes mistakes here. He does - BIG ONES. To not call a timeout and get the possible #1 draft choice a shot at the end? (advance the ball and call timeout) THATS A MISTAKE

    We are all human. K made some big mistakes tonight. Hope the team gets better - less turnovers and better rebounds.

    Hope Keels is ok !!!!!!!

  19. #79
    What was K's explanation for either not calling a TO at the end of not getting the ball to Paolo?

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    I think he was kinda Forced to go zone without Keels.. As a matter of fact, it killed me that after our great run at end of regulation to get ahead by 2 we went back to M2M for the last possession... just to make sure they scored. They have the athletes to beat us off the dribble - why go M2M on that possession? STAY ZONE, it was working so well




    "Dance with who brung ya baby" - there is a reason that quote exists. If I am running the football 7 yards per play off right tackle... Guess what? I running off right tackle the next 5 plays until they stop it.

    I don't doubt we wanted to surprise them. Like surprising them by not having Banchero take a shot for 14 minutes... or surprise them by Banchero bringing it up the floor to wear himself out. SURPRISE! people are too scared to say K makes mistakes here. He does - BIG ONES. To not call a timeout and get the possible #1 draft choice a shot at the end? (advance the ball and call timeout) THATS A MISTAKE

    We are all human. K made some big mistakes tonight. Hope the team gets better - less turnovers and better rebounds.

    Hope Keels is ok !!!!!!!
    He makes mistakes, to be sure, but we will have to agree to disagree about whether it was a mistake to play man to man on the last possession of regulation.
    I agree not calling a time-out to set up a play at the end of the OT was a mistake.
    I do not, however, think that Paolo needed to be the one to get the ball or take the last shot. Off the top of my head I can think of two losses that occurred after going to the most obvious player on the last play; one was a national championship game and one was an elite eight game. Sometimes going to the most obvious player is so obvious that it backfires.
    Remember how we won the nailbiter in Tallahassee in Zion's year? K set up a play in which he used both Zion and RJ as decoys; he had Zion going around a Barrett screen close to the basket, which allowed Reddish to be wide open for the game-winning three.
    A time-out tonight with a play either going to Paolo or using Paolo as a decoy and allowing a shot for AJ would have been ideal. Moore driving into the teeth of the defense to get blocked was clearly suboptimal, so I guess we agree on that.

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