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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    In some of the least surprising news of the golf year, LIV golfers will be missing The Ryder Cup.



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...LN7?li=BBnb7Kz
    Happy to hear it!

  2. #342
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Tell us what you really think, Freddie.

    "These guys — you’ve seen their interviews, right?” Couples told Golf.com. “Have you ever seen Phil look so stupid in his life? They know it’s a joke.”
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...ZFi?li=BBnb7Kz

    And my 2nd favorite golfer, Z, tells the LIV to take a hike.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...oes?li=BBnb7Kz
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  3. #343
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Tell us what you really think, Freddie.



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...ZFi?li=BBnb7Kz

    And my 2nd favorite golfer, Z, tells the LIV to take a hike.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/gol...oes?li=BBnb7Kz
    "I don’t think I’ll ever to talk to him again," Couples said of Mickelson. "What for? I’m not in the same boat as him anymore, and probably never will play golf with him again. I’m not saying that to be mean. We’re just in different orbits."

    Well said Freddy Boom Boom.

  4. #344
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Flip side of that coin is Henni Duplessis, a journeyman on a number of tours for many years, with lifetime earnings of about 700K.

    He finished second in the inaugural LIV tour event, making just over two million dollars in three days.

    Everybody is on their high horse, but Nicklaus designed a course in Saudi Arabia (did he do it for free?), the PGA tour has backed tournaments in all kinds of places with atrocious human rights records, and probably a lot of us are invested in companies that do business with Saudi Arabia on a regular basis.

    Hard to blame a guy like Duplessis, imo, for making a move that completely changed his life.
    Last edited by rsvman; 07-01-2022 at 04:19 PM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Flip side of that coin is Henni Duplessis, a journeyman on a number of tours for many years, with lifetime earnings of about 700K.

    He finished second in the inaugural LIV tour event, making just over two million dollars in three days.

    Everybody is on their high horse, but Nicklaus designed a course in Saudi Arabia (did he do it for free?), the PGA tour has backed tournaments in all kinds of places with atrocious human rights records, and probably a lot of us are invested in companies that do business with Saudi Arabia on a regular basis.

    Hard to blame a guy like Duplessis, imo, for making a move that completely changed his life.
    Yea, for some people, that amount of money trumps any misgivings they might have about the "sponsors" of the LIV tour.
    And you're right that it's hard to be pure in this interconnected world. Frankly, I don't like owning and using an iPhone made by essentially sweatshop labor (with exorbitant mark-ups by Apple) but what choice do I have?

  6. #346
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    Frankly, I don't like owning and using an iPhone made by essentially sweatshop labor (with exorbitant mark-ups by Apple) but what choice do I have?
    You could buy an Android phone made by sweatshop labor.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  7. #347
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Flip side of that coin is Henni Duplessis, a journeyman on a number of tours for many years, with lifetime earnings of about 700K.

    He finished second in the inaugural LIV tour event, making just over two million dollars in three days.

    Everybody is on their high horse, but Nicklaus designed a course in Saudi Arabia (did he do it for free?), the PGA tour has backed tournaments in all kinds of places with atrocious human rights records, and probably a lot of us are invested in companies that do business with Saudi Arabia on a regular basis.

    Hard to blame a guy like Duplessis, imo, for making a move that completely changed his life.
    Query: The Putin Tour, funded by the Kremlin. All good? I mean a lot of us are probably invested in companies that do business with Russia on a regular basis. [FWIW: Lee Westwood & Ian Poulter were asked precisely this question and, while they seemed taken aback, they refused to answer.]
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  8. #348
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Rolex is one of the biggest sponsors of the PGA tour. They have business interests in Saudi Arabia. Should the players on the PGA Tour not accept prize money from Rolex?
    KPMG has been been rated as the top companies in Russia for over ten years. But it's ok to accept money from them?

    So is the difference that in the case of the LIV tour, you know where the money is coming from but on the PGA tour it's just 'don't ask, don't tell?'

  9. #349
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    Yeah, that’s about as responsive as Westwood & Poulter. And someone (I think it was Mal) already responded to this line upthread (and persuasively, IMO).
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  10. #350
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    We are apparently not going to see eye-to-eye on this, and I'm certainly not a supporter of Saudi Arabia.
    All I am saying is that it seems that there has been quite a bit of virtue signaling and a whole lot of finger-pointing, and it seems a little overboard to me.

    I was always taught that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The sponsors of the PGA tour aren't above reproach, by any stretch of the imagination.

    I don't know what I would do if somebody told me that I could do the same job I'm doing right now, that I didn't have to do it any better than I do it right now, and that I could work less, travel less, and get paid maybe 20 or 30 times my current salary. I like to think I'd turn it down, but I've never been put into that position, and neither has anybody else who is spouting invectives about the players who went to the new tour.

    If you haven't gone over your entire portfolio and divested yourself of any assets that have ties to oppressive regimes, gone to your company's CEO and told them you don't want to be paid any money that might have been earned in any of those countries, I personally don't think you should be spouting off about the choices of others whose job, when you get down to it, is really nothing more than entertainment.

  11. #351
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    The Saudi backed LIV Golf tour certainly has a ways to go to make money on their initial investments. The money they’re giving to guys like Mickelson ($200 million), Ian Poulter ($30 million), Pat Perez ($10 million), and many others seems like it will take some time to recoup and make a profit on. Especially considering they haven’t even inked a television contract yet.

    If the league is still running and profitable in five years, good for them, but I’ll be surprised. The PGA Tour still has the active winningest tournament and major player around in Tiger so that helps their cause.

  12. #352
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Does they care if it makes money?

    -jk

  13. #353
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    To answer the question on if we would turn down more money to do our jobs, of course not. But for one, some of us care about our legacy and values more than money and secondly, if another company started offering any swinging Richard astronomically more money to do their jobs, and that person was mediocre at their job within their field, compared to their peers/cohorts, and relative to the cream of the crop at their company (Kevin Na, Ian Poulter, Chase Koepka, Pat Perez, Matthew Wolff, etc), you would seriously have to question the judgment and motives of that company that’s paying them that much to transfer. Why are they giving handouts of large sums of money to people that aren’t even elite at their craft compared to the big dogs in their industry? If a company started doing that to my coworkers that weren’t elite at what they do, I’d have serious questions of the viability of their business model. I’d be skeptical. Of course I wouldn’t blame my former cohorts, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if they came back begging to be let back in the door in 3-5ish years.

    Add the source of these funds, and it’s sketchy. Of course most of us peasants in this society do business with countries that have brutal regimes like buy iPhones made in China, but guys like Phil Mickelson don’t have to make the choice to do business with tours funded by Saudi blood money to further line their pockets and could still be the top 1-2% of all humans on this earth in terms of wealth. And that’s where the difference is and why the optics of their decisions are brutally bad.

  14. #354
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    There were ten major winners on the course today with I think a total of 16 major victories among them. DJ, Brooks Koepka, Reed, Oostie, Bryson, Abraham Anser, Brendan Steele, etc, etc. You don't think there is any talent? Really?

    I think people who have decided that the league is worthless look for reasons to support that belief. The leaderboard halfway through today's round was actually superior talent to a typical, non-major PGA tour stop.
    No one is forcing anybody to like it or watch it, as far as I know, so if you hate the idea, it's pretty easy to avoid.
    As for Phil not needing the money, do you have any idea what kind of a gambling habit that man has, and how much money he has wasted? He, of all people, might actually need it. (For the record I loathe gambling and think he has been very foolish with his money.)

  15. #355
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There were ten major winners on the course today with I think a total of 16 major victories among them. DJ, Brooks Koepka, Reed, Oostie, Bryson, Abraham Anser, Brendan Steele, etc, etc. You don't think there is any talent? Really?

    I think people who have decided that the league is worthless look for reasons to support that belief. The leaderboard halfway through today's round was actually superior talent to a typical, non-major PGA tour stop.
    No one is forcing anybody to like it or watch it, as far as I know, so if you hate the idea, it's pretty easy to avoid.
    As for Phil not needing the money, do you have any idea what kind of a gambling habit that man has, and how much money he has wasted? He, of all people, might actually need it. (For the record I loathe gambling and think he has been very foolish with his money.)
    That's just absolutely, demonstably false. Ludicrous statements like that damage your argument and makes one wonder what you really know about golf and why you're making these arguments.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  16. #356
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    We are apparently not going to see eye-to-eye on this, and I'm certainly not a supporter of Saudi Arabia.
    All I am saying is that it seems that there has been quite a bit of virtue signaling and a whole lot of finger-pointing, and it seems a little overboard to me.

    I was always taught that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The sponsors of the PGA tour aren't above reproach, by any stretch of the imagination.

    I don't know what I would do if somebody told me that I could do the same job I'm doing right now, that I didn't have to do it any better than I do it right now, and that I could work less, travel less, and get paid maybe 20 or 30 times my current salary. I like to think I'd turn it down, but I've never been put into that position, and neither has anybody else who is spouting invectives about the players who went to the new tour.

    If you haven't gone over your entire portfolio and divested yourself of any assets that have ties to oppressive regimes, gone to your company's CEO and told them you don't want to be paid any money that might have been earned in any of those countries, I personally don't think you should be spouting off about the choices of others whose job, when you get down to it, is really nothing more than entertainment.
    Per the bolded above, none of us or those in the media have been in that position, but plenty of PGA tour players have turned down this money. Their experiences and perspectives are certainly valid.

  17. #357
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    That's just absolutely, demonstably false. Ludicrous statements like that damage your argument and makes one wonder what you really know about golf and why you're making these arguments.
    You are entitled to your opinion, certainly, but I took the liberty of looking at the top 5 guys on the LIV tour leaderboard, and picked 3 of the most prominent, and I did the same with this week's PGA tournament (only I had to go to 8 in order to find anybody that had any kind of significant record on the PGA tour).

    The LIV leaderboard guys look like this: Player A has 28 professional wins, a Masters championship, one US Open Championship and one runner-up finish, 2 runner-up finishes in the PGA championship. He was player of the year on the PGA tour twice. Player B has 15 professional wins, second in the Masters in 2019, two PGA championships and runner-up twice, two US Open championships, and tied for 4th at the Open Championship. He was also PGA Player of the Year twice. Player C was the 5th player ever to be the NCAA Division 1 medalist and win the US Amateur in the same year, has 10 tour wins, won the US Open in 2020, and finished tied for 4th in the PGA in 2020. He is also only the third player in history to be medalist in the NCAA Division 1 tournament, win the US Amateur, and win the US Open (the other two guys you may have heard of: Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods).

    The PGA leaderboard looks like this: Player A has one professional win, tied for 60th at the PGA championship in 2019, and tied for 40th in the US Open Championship in 2021. Player B has one professional win, T17 in the Masters, T13 at the PGA, T54 at the US Open, and T12 at the Open Championship twice. Player C has 3 professional wins, T27 at the Masters, T55th in the PGA Championship, and T53 at the US Open. (Numbers after the names of the majors represent each players BEST finish at said championships.)


    To sum it up, the LIV leaderboard's 3 guys have 53 wins, 7 major championships, 4 runner-up finishes in major championships, and 4 player of the year wins. The PGA leaderboard this week has 5 total wins, no majors. Highest finish at any major championship has been 12th.


    Note that these accomplishments are not ancient history, for anybody who was going to post Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, and Gary Player, for example. One of the three players mentioned was in contention at the PGA championship just last month.


    So, like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it is fair to say that my statement was "absolutely, demonstrably false." I get that people hate the LIV Tour, hate the Saudis, hate the players, even, for leaving the PGA to chase after big money. I really do. I don't care for the idea, either. I would be happier if there was no such thing as the LIV Tour. But, again, my statement about the leaderboard this week was not "demonstrably false" at all.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  18. #358
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    The John Deere Classic historically fields one of the PGA Tour’s events with the fewest superstars. Probably not a good example of the talent the PGA Tour has. A PGA Tour event like the Farmer’s Insurance Invitational, AT&T Pro Am, Bay Hill Invitational, Genesis Invitational, any of FedEx Cup events, the Memorial, etc is a better comparison. I don’t think the John Deere Classic has had many top 50 players in the world in its field in event history. Probably not the best comparison for that argument. Spieth and DeChambeau won the event as rookies but were new to the tour then. They weren’t what they are now in terms of prestige and success.

  19. #359
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    The John Deere Classic historically fields one of the PGA Tour’s events with the fewest superstars. Probably not a good example of the talent the PGA Tour has. A PGA Tour event like the Farmer’s Insurance Invitational, AT&T Pro Am, Bay Hill Invitational, Genesis Invitational, any of FedEx Cup events, the Memorial, etc is a better comparison. I don’t think the John Deere Classic has had many top 50 players in the world in its field in event history. Probably not the best comparison for that argument. Spieth and DeChambeau won the event as rookies but were new to the tour then. They weren’t what they are now in terms of prestige and success.
    Understood.

  20. #360
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion, certainly, but I took the liberty of looking at the top 5 guys on the LIV tour leaderboard, and picked 3 of the most prominent, and I did the same with this week's PGA tournament (only I had to go to 8 in order to find anybody that had any kind of significant record on the PGA tour).

    The LIV leaderboard guys look like this: Player A has 28 professional wins, a Masters championship, one US Open Championship and one runner-up finish, 2 runner-up finishes in the PGA championship. He was player of the year on the PGA tour twice. Player B has 15 professional wins, second in the Masters in 2019, two PGA championships and runner-up twice, two US Open championships, and tied for 4th at the Open Championship. He was also PGA Player of the Year twice. Player C was the 5th player ever to be the NCAA Division 1 medalist and win the US Amateur in the same year, has 10 tour wins, won the US Open in 2020, and finished tied for 4th in the PGA in 2020. He is also only the third player in history to be medalist in the NCAA Division 1 tournament, win the US Amateur, and win the US Open (the other two guys you may have heard of: Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods).

    The PGA leaderboard looks like this: Player A has one professional win, tied for 60th at the PGA championship in 2019, and tied for 40th in the US Open Championship in 2021. Player B has one professional win, T17 in the Masters, T13 at the PGA, T54 at the US Open, and T12 at the Open Championship twice. Player C has 3 professional wins, T27 at the Masters, T55th in the PGA Championship, and T53 at the US Open. (Numbers after the names of the majors represent each players BEST finish at said championships.)


    To sum it up, the LIV leaderboard's 3 guys have 53 wins, 7 major championships, 4 runner-up finishes in major championships, and 4 player of the year wins. The PGA leaderboard this week has 5 total wins, no majors. Highest finish at any major championship has been 12th.


    Note that these accomplishments are not ancient history, for anybody who was going to post Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, and Gary Player, for example. One of the three players mentioned was in contention at the PGA championship just last month.


    So, like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it is fair to say that my statement was "absolutely, demonstrably false." I get that people hate the LIV Tour, hate the Saudis, hate the players, even, for leaving the PGA to chase after big money. I really do. I don't care for the idea, either. I would be happier if there was no such thing as the LIV Tour. But, again, my statement about the leaderboard this week was not "demonstrably false" at all.

    LIV does have some accomplished players, but the issue is that their roster seems to be heavy at the extremes as it is almost entirely either guys who have had a ton of success but who's best golf seems to be behind them, or fringe guys who are unlikely to ever break into the upper echelon of golf. From an OWGR standpoint, LIV has only 2 of the current top 20 (#16 DJ and #19 Koepka) and only 8 of the top 50, meaning 85-90% of the best players in the world play PGA/Euro Tour. And it also shows up in major contention - in the three majors so far this year, the best finish of any LIV tour member is T9 by Ancer, and there are only 3 other top 20s with DJ T12, Na and Gooch T14 all at the Masters. So I think it's fair to say LIV tour members aren't the cream of the crop in today's golf world. I know you don't bet, but hypothetically what would the odds have to be to take the LIV field vs the non LIV field to win a upcoming major? 4 to 1? Higher? Or if there was a LIV vs Non LIV Ryder Cup style event? I think the PGA/Euro tours have far and away the better talent. Yes it could all change in a week or month or year, but as of now the LIV tour does not offer a product that I personally find as compelling as what the PGA/Euro Tours do. Again just my personal opinion and I don't begrudge anyone who prefers the LIV product with shorter events, concurrent play, and some guys who in the past have played great golf.

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