Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 45
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    The ACC itself has proved that any team has a shot at winning the conference, particularly in the Coastal Division. All 7 teams in the Coastal has made the ACCCG in the last 9 seasons (remember that last year, they temporarily removed divisions, so it's really 7 of the last 8 seasons). Duke has shown in the last decade that they can compete for Coastal titles and not just be competitive in bowl games, but win them too.

    Our standard should still be the same: continue to push for Coastal titles, giving us a chance at winning the ACC title and going to a NY6 bowl, and otherwise being competitive in the conference and winning bowl games against good competition. We don't have to aim for national championships because we're not on that level yet. But, we can still be a good football program.
    Check out the Duke Basketball Roundup!

    2003-2004 HLM
    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Sigh... it feels like whenever Duke struggles in football, someone crops up asking, "should we even keep trying? Why not drop down to some lower level of competition?"

    Folks, that is not an option if we want to stay in the ACC. So, if you think Duke should change our football status then you are saying goodbye to our rivalries with every other team in the conference. Staying in the ACC in hoops and golf and soccer and all those other sports is not possible without football.

    And I want to point out something else...
    • Did Northwestern stop trying to compete when it lost 34 games in a row in the early 80s? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run over the past 15 years when they went to 10 bowl games and twice won their Big Ten division.
    • Did South Carolina stop trying to compete when it lost 21 games in a row from 1998-2000? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run with Steve Spurrier from 2005-14 when they made 9 bowl games in 10 years and finished 11-2 and ranked in the top 10 in 3 straight seasons.
    • Did Florida State stop trying to compete when it lost 20 games in a row in the 1970s? If they had, they would have missed out on 2 national titles.


    Please don't give up. Duke has been quite competitive in football in the past and will be again. This thread just looks awful (and will look even worse in retrospect when this team comes back).

    -Jason "Duke won games over Big Ten and Big 12 opponents this year... it isn't like we are even the worst P5 team in the country" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    .
    • Did Northwestern stop trying to compete when it lost 34 games in a row in the early 80s? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run over the past 15 years when they went to 10 bowl games and twice won their Big Ten division.
    • Did South Carolina stop trying to compete when it lost 21 games in a row from 1998-2000? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run with Steve Spurrier from 2005-14 when they made 9 bowl games in 10 years and finished 11-2 and ranked in the top 10 in 3 straight seasons.
    • Did Florida State stop trying to compete when it lost 20 games in a row in the 1970s? If they had, they would have missed out on 2 national titles.


    P
    I'm amazed no one has done the obligatory Germans-bombing-Pearl-Harbor-joke yet.

    As for downsizing, I think this is a discussion Duke will have to have when and if the major football powers decide to break off and have their own super conference. Not a sure thing but not out of the question, either, IMO.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Honolulu
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I'm amazed no one has done the obligatory Germans-bombing-Pearl-Harbor-joke yet.

    As for downsizing, I think this is a discussion Duke will have to have when and if the major football powers decide to break off and have their own super conference. Not a sure thing but not out of the question, either, IMO.
    He was rolling.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    As for downsizing, I think this is a discussion Duke will have to have when and if the major football powers decide to break off and have their own super conference. Not a sure thing but not out of the question, either, IMO.
    I think the NIL will, for various reasons, probably push this issue to the fore sooner rather than later. I think Duke and much of the ACC is in a tenuous situation in that regard long term...

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Yes. Period.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  7. #27

    Don't Forget Option 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I'm amazed no one has done the obligatory Germans-bombing-Pearl-Harbor-joke yet.

    As for downsizing, I think this is a discussion Duke will have to have when and if the major football powers decide to break off and have their own super conference. Not a sure thing but not out of the question, either, IMO.
    I feel rotten, traitorous, that I have given aid and comfort to the enemy, and have damaged the battle morale of our troops. Seriously, I appreciate the discussion. I know that it's not a new issue, and it may be tedious for some. But I don't think it's irrelevant nor tedious for others.

    I love Duke and want its academics and athletics to be highly competitive. Our excellence in so many of the non-revenue sports is awesome, especially considering that these student-athletes excel in national rankings of academic achievement.

    Personally, I am not a quitter, although I have stopped doing some things when it appeared to be irrational and unwise to continue.

    Dear Jason [you make several excellent points, including referencing Northwestern's history, while I hope you weren't overlooking Option 2] Evans, I myself think that Option 2 makes sense. I do not favor leaving the ACC. I just look at what it takes to be a top P5 program [such as Bama and GA] and ask: Is this feasible for us? Do we want this to be feasible? Is this us?

    I didn't raise this issue now just because of several losing seasons. Many of you have pointed out that the issues are structural within Big Time Sports, and go beyond our recent W-L record.

    Caveat: As others have pointed out, we don't know what the conference alignment will look like. This discussion will likely morph into new forms.

    I am confident that these discussions are happening within Duke Athletics and Big Duke. Responsible stewardship requires these kinds of strategic relooks.

    Again, thank you for the discussion. I hope that we can attract and support a topnotch Coach.

    Go Duke!
    “I love it. Coach, when we came here, we had a three-hour meeting about the core values. If you really represent the core values, it means diving on the floor, sacrificing your body for your teammates, no matter how much you’re up by or how much you’re down by, always playing hard.” -- Zion

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    • Did Northwestern stop trying to compete when it lost 34 games in a row in the early 80s? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run over the past 15 years when they went to 10 bowl games and twice won their Big Ten division.
    • Did South Carolina stop trying to compete when it lost 21 games in a row from 1998-2000? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run with Steve Spurrier from 2005-14 when they made 9 bowl games in 10 years and finished 11-2 and ranked in the top 10 in 3 straight seasons.
    • Did Florida State stop trying to compete when it lost 20 games in a row in the 1970s? If they had, they would have missed out on 2 national titles.
    Did we when we went like 4 years out of 7 winless? Nope! We kept battling, kept fighting, and now we can have this debate again!
    Check out the Duke Basketball Roundup!

    2003-2004 HLM
    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Sigh... it feels like whenever Duke struggles in football, someone crops up asking, "should we even keep trying? Why not drop down to some lower level of competition?"

    Folks, that is not an option if we want to stay in the ACC. So, if you think Duke should change our football status then you are saying goodbye to our rivalries with every other team in the conference. Staying in the ACC in hoops and golf and soccer and all those other sports is not possible without football.

    And I want to point out something else...
    • Did Northwestern stop trying to compete when it lost 34 games in a row in the early 80s? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run over the past 15 years when they went to 10 bowl games and twice won their Big Ten division.
    • Did South Carolina stop trying to compete when it lost 21 games in a row from 1998-2000? If it had, they never would have gotten to enjoy their run with Steve Spurrier from 2005-14 when they made 9 bowl games in 10 years and finished 11-2 and ranked in the top 10 in 3 straight seasons.
    • Did Florida State stop trying to compete when it lost 20 games in a row in the 1970s? If they had, they would have missed out on 2 national titles.


    Please don't give up. Duke has been quite competitive in football in the past and will be again. This thread just looks awful (and will look even worse in retrospect when this team comes back).

    -Jason "Duke won games over Big Ten and Big 12 opponents this year... it isn't like we are even the worst P5 team in the country" Evans
    I do not understand why Duke fans seem to always want to discuss this topic. If they understood NCAA athletics and Duke Athletics as a business entity, this is simply not an option.Duke can be like Stanford ,Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Notre Dame,Syracuse, Northwestern, Baylor, Rice, Southern Methodist, Tulane and other Private Institutions.Big time sports is a factor in choosing a degree at a 4 year institution. I am glad the Duke athletic complex has succeeded in bringing talented smart athletes to compete and learn at Duke University.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    I am fully aware of the financial benefits that football brings, most importantly funding all the non-revenue sports, and I am aware that without football, conference membership becomes problematic to say the least. I would like to see Duke University do one of two things:

    1. Go all in on football, strive for excellence as we do in all other university endeavors. No, we will not be Alabama or Ohio State, but if we strive for excellence we have a decent chance to have at least some success on the field and settle in as an up-and-down, moderately successful program, which many on here have said they would be satisfied with. But the effort made, and the resources expended, would be first class.

    2. Do the morally courageous thing, and shut down football completely. The mission of the university is to nurture the brains and bodies of its students, not to destroy them. CTE is real, and while it doesn't strike everyone who straps on a helmet, it sure does affect a lot of players as they get older, and the physical, emotional, mental, financial, and social consequences can be, and often are, immense. The longer you play, the more practices you participate in, the more tackles you make, the more head-down blocks you make, the more hits you absorb -- the greater the cumulative effect on the brain. The evidence is already pretty compelling, and it is only getting stronger. If Duke were to do this, and of course I'm not naive enough to think we would, I suspect other institutions of higher learning would follow suit pretty quickly. If it happened like that, the day of the announcement would be the proudest I would ever be of my university.

    One or the other. No half-measures.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I am fully aware of the financial benefits that football brings, most importantly funding all the non-revenue sports, and I am aware that without football, conference membership becomes problematic to say the least. I would like to see Duke University do one of two things:

    1. Go all in on football, strive for excellence as we do in all other university endeavors. No, we will not be Alabama or Ohio State, but if we strive for excellence we have a decent chance to have at least some success on the field and settle in as an up-and-down, moderately successful program, which many on here have said they would be satisfied with. But the effort made, and the resources expended, would be first class.

    2. Do the morally courageous thing, and shut down football completely. The mission of the university is to nurture the brains and bodies of its students, not to destroy them. CTE is real, and while it doesn't strike everyone who straps on a helmet, it sure does affect a lot of players as they get older, and the physical, emotional, mental, financial, and social consequences can be, and often are, immense. The longer you play, the more practices you participate in, the more tackles you make, the more head-down blocks you make, the more hits you absorb -- the greater the cumulative effect on the brain. The evidence is already pretty compelling, and it is only getting stronger. If Duke were to do this, and of course I'm not naive enough to think we would, I suspect other institutions of higher learning would follow suit pretty quickly. If it happened like that, the day of the announcement would be the proudest I would ever be of my university.

    One or the other. No half-measures.
    Bravo! Just one thing I would add to the first point, as an observation: Such an expansion of our football program would bring Duke down to the same moral level as every other P5 school. It would certainly diminish the distance between the Duke and uNC athletic programs and make them our true rival again.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by 75Crazie View Post
    Bravo! Just one thing I would add to the first point, as an observation: Such an expansion of our football program would bring Duke down to the same moral level as every other P5 school. It would certainly diminish the distance between the Duke and uNC athletic programs and make them our true rival again.
    No reason this has to be true. Emphasis mine below:

    1. Go all in on football, strive for excellence as we do in all other university endeavors. No, we will not be Alabama or Ohio State, but if we strive for excellence we have a decent chance to have at least some success on the field and settle in as an up-and-down, moderately successful program, which many on here have said they would be satisfied with. But the effort made, and the resources expended, would be first class.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    And, while it's a natural question, it's tedious -- because (a) it has been asked so many times and (b) the various OP's totally ignore the potentially catastrophic implications for ACC membership and dollars flowing into the athletic department to support champion sports in non-revenue areas.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'I mean how could anyone even think of jeopardizing women's golf, which has seven NCAA championships?'
    Interestingly, according to this site, Duke golf is actually cash flow positive with the men's program "making" nearly $700k and the women's program "losing" about $200k. I assume expenses are lower than most sports simply because the team rosters are so much smaller. And I think the men's team is even smaller than the women's team (i.e. the number of NCAA-allowed scholarships is fewer for the men). By far, the sport that is the most subsidized by men's basketball and football is women's basketball where expenses exceeded revenues by approx $3M. I wonder if that is due to much higher coaches salaries/facilities than other sports or what. Football seems to make up approximately 40% of the total athletic department revenues. For some reason, it doesn't show the total revenue of the men's basketball team but shows the net profit of $12M or so for that program. So, I'd imagine men's basketball makes up the lion's share of the remaining 60%.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Interestingly, according to this site, Duke golf is actually cash flow positive with the men's program "making" nearly $700k and the women's program "losing" about $200k. I assume expenses are lower than most sports simply because the team rosters are so much smaller. And I think the men's team is even smaller than the women's team (i.e. the number of NCAA-allowed scholarships is fewer for the men). By far, the sport that is the most subsidized by men's basketball and football is women's basketball where expenses exceeded revenues by approx $3M. I wonder if that is due to much higher coaches salaries/facilities than other sports or what. Football seems to make up approximately 40% of the total athletic department revenues. For some reason, it doesn't show the total revenue of the men's basketball team but shows the net profit of $12M or so for that program. So, I'd imagine men's basketball makes up the lion's share of the remaining 60%.
    smaller roster, very little in terms of facilities cost, injuries relatively rare compared to other sports.

    WRT wbb: coach salary by far the biggest. facilty costs is probably next, also cost of bringing in cupcakes. also third in prominence after football and mbb overall (as a sport). Plus the optics of investing in mbb but not wbb would be VERY bad


    duke bball revenue is insane. I mean at minimum it's 5k per seat for 5k seats, if you include the requisite ID donation...so starting at 25 million revenue per year before you consider anything else.
    Last edited by uh_no; 12-07-2021 at 10:29 AM.
    1200. DDMF.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Interestingly, according to this site, Duke golf is actually cash flow positive with the men's program "making" nearly $700k and the women's program "losing" about $200k. I assume expenses are lower than most sports simply because the team rosters are so much smaller. And I think the men's team is even smaller than the women's team (i.e. the number of NCAA-allowed scholarships is fewer for the men). By far, the sport that is the most subsidized by men's basketball and football is women's basketball where expenses exceeded revenues by approx $3M. I wonder if that is due to much higher coaches salaries/facilities than other sports or what. Football seems to make up approximately 40% of the total athletic department revenues. For some reason, it doesn't show the total revenue of the men's basketball team but shows the net profit of $12M or so for that program. So, I'd imagine men's basketball makes up the lion's share of the remaining 60%.
    That is pretty impressive, does that golf number include golf-earmarked Iron Duke/booster donations in the revenue total?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    No reason this has to be true. Emphasis mine below:
    I submit that, to strive for excellence in football, and to sustain that excellence, you have to get down and dirty with the bulk of the P5 schools, not just the "elite" (in football terms, that is). While it is nice to believe that we could manage a program to the standards (academic and athletic) that Stanford and Northwestern still seem to have, it is just not realistic to me given the current college football climate.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    smaller roster, very little in terms of facilities cost, injuries relatively rare compared to other sports.

    WRT wbb: coach salary by far the biggest. facilty costs is probably next, also cost of bringing in cupcakes.


    duke bball revenue is insane. I mean at minimum it's 5k per seat for 5k seats, if you include the requisite ID donation...so starting at 25 million revenue per year before you consider anything else.
    Right, I was thinking it's almost $50M (i.e. maybe close/more than football actually, that HAS to be anomalous for a P5 school). Although it's always tricky what these numbers do/do not include sometimes as there can be some creative accounting.

    Edit: This says men's basketball took in $36.4M in total revenues in 2018, which seems low to me, but maybe is right. That would mean all the other sports (removing football and men's basketball) had total revenues of $39M which seems high to me.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I am fully aware of the financial benefits that football brings, most importantly funding all the non-revenue sports, and I am aware that without football, conference membership becomes problematic to say the least. I would like to see Duke University do one of two things:

    1. Go all in on football, strive for excellence as we do in all other university endeavors. No, we will not be Alabama or Ohio State, but if we strive for excellence we have a decent chance to have at least some success on the field and settle in as an up-and-down, moderately successful program, which many on here have said they would be satisfied with. But the effort made, and the resources expended, would be first class.

    2. Do the morally courageous thing, and shut down football completely. The mission of the university is to nurture the brains and bodies of its students, not to destroy them. CTE is real, and while it doesn't strike everyone who straps on a helmet, it sure does affect a lot of players as they get older, and the physical, emotional, mental, financial, and social consequences can be, and often are, immense. The longer you play, the more practices you participate in, the more tackles you make, the more head-down blocks you make, the more hits you absorb -- the greater the cumulative effect on the brain. The evidence is already pretty compelling, and it is only getting stronger. If Duke were to do this, and of course I'm not naive enough to think we would, I suspect other institutions of higher learning would follow suit pretty quickly. If it happened like that, the day of the announcement would be the proudest I would ever be of my university.

    One or the other. No half-measures.
    I'd pick option #2. for the reasons you state.

    And if we have to leave the ACC, so be it. The conference has lost much of its appeal to me, between cheating and weak hoops performance.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    In the words of Gordon Gekko, "It's all about the bucks, kid. The rest is conversation."

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    That is pretty impressive, does that golf number include golf-earmarked Iron Duke/booster donations in the revenue total?
    Trying to tease out real dollars in college sports is a fool’s errand. Duke can decide if the Wash Duke pays fees to DUAA for use of the golf course, or the other way around. And what about PE? This same shell game can be applied to any shared facility on campus.

    -jk

Similar Threads

  1. No Compete Contracts
    By mattman91 in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-06-2020, 05:34 PM
  2. Time to take Duke seriously as a Final Four contender
    By NM Duke Fan in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 02-25-2012, 10:53 PM
  3. Duke dominace could continue
    By Gargoyle in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-15-2010, 05:46 PM
  4. Duke vs St. John's matchup...should it continue?
    By Johnny Jungle in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-21-2009, 07:34 AM
  5. Armstrong to Compete in 2009 TDF?
    By OldPhiKap in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-08-2008, 08:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •