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  1. #241
    I actually recall a women's basketball game when I was on campus where a person's transgressions were front and center with the Crazies antics and the opposing coach/player were none too pleased. She had been accused of shoplifting at Wal-Mat and everybody brought in plastic Wal-Mart bags to wave and just chanted "Wal-Mart" over and over again. I don't recall anything like that for a men's player in my four years on campus although certainly there were targeted cheers at players to get into their heads.
    Last edited by Bluedog; 12-02-2021 at 10:47 AM.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Ten worst 3pt shooting percentages in Duke history:

    Code:
    Year	3pt%	NCAA
    2019	30.8	8
    2022	32.8*	?
    2020	35.2	n/a
    2021	35.2	n/inv
    2002	36.3	16
    2003	36.3	16
    2004	36.4	4
    1989	36.5	4
    1994	36.5	2
    1998	36.9	8
    * so far

    Some very good teams on this list. But unless we drastically improve our 3pt shooting, this year's team will be Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt shooting team ever.
    Is shooting percentage the way to evaluate this, or the relative rank of shooting? Part of the reason the recent seasons have been the worst shooting years is that the line is farther back and every team is now shooting a bit worse. If I have time later I can try to look up the relative ranking of 3pt shooting.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I actually recall a women's basketball game when I was on campus where a person's transgressions where front and center with the Crazies antics and the opposing coach/player were none too pleased. She had been accused of shoplifting at Wal-Mat and everybody brought it plastic Wal-Mart bags to wave and just chanted "Wal-Mart" over and over again. I don't recall anything like that for a men's player in my four years on campus although certainly there were targeted cheers at players to get into their heads.
    There was the time in the late 70's (or early 80's) when a NC State player was arrested for switching price tags on underwear at K-Mart (I believe). Shortly thereafter, NC State played at Duke and the NC State coach made the mistake of starting that player and, when his name was announced for the starting line-up and he ran out on to the court, about 500 pairs of underwear came flying out of the stands and onto the court. Took a few minutes to clean up the court!

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    There was a huge amount of attention on the Friday night match-up of Duke and Gonzaga. It felt like a Final Four contest. Then, two days later, Gonzaga struggled against Tarleton State (Ken Pom 183 after the game). Three days later, Duke crashed and burned after halftime against Ohio State. Probably somewhat related.

    Let's forget this one -- ace the exams -- and get back to playing Duke basketball.
    Yeah I don’t know. This one hurt. Friday to Tuesday is not a particularly quick turnaround, especially for essentially professional athletes. The ACC tournament promises several games in a row, the big one big games every two days. We have got to be able to play tough in those situations, or when we’re just tired or distracted for whatever reason. Granted, Ohio state didn’t have the same schedule and travel requirements, but they also didn’t have our team. There is simply no excuse for not scoring in the final 4 1/2 minutes. Period. I still think we are potentially the best team in the country, but it takes 40 minutes, not 35. And now the psychological part: does stewing over that collapse for two weeks break this team or motivate this team? My bet is on the latter because we have Coach K. But make no mistake, this was an epic f—, ok, a mess up (not a wanker!!).

    And speaking of horrible outcomes, 9F! I guess this means that other school is going to be a problem this year after all. OTOH, it may provide some quad one wins…!
    GO DUKE!!!

  5. #245
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is offline Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Ten worst 3pt shooting percentages in Duke history:

    Code:
    Year	3pt%	NCAA
    2019	30.8	8
    2022	32.8*	?
    2020	35.2	n/a
    2021	35.2	n/inv
    2002	36.3	16
    2003	36.3	16
    2004	36.4	4
    1989	36.5	4
    1994	36.5	2
    1998	36.9	8
    * so far

    Some very good teams on this list. But unless we drastically improve our 3pt shooting, this year's team will be Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt shooting team ever.
    Ouch... that's a pretty quick and thorough destruction of my argument. Let's see how I can salvage this... hmm... small sample size? Or maybe I should just admit maybe I'm wrong... but no one does that on the internet!

    SMALL SAMPLE SIZE!!!

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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    There was the time in the late 70's (or early 80's) when a NC State player was arrested for switching price tags on underwear at K-Mart (I believe). Shortly thereafter, NC State played at Duke and the NC State coach made the mistake of starting that player and, when his name was announced for the starting line-up and he ran out on to the court, about 500 pairs of underwear came flying out of the stands and onto the court. Took a few minutes to clean up the court!
    I was at that game! It was the 77-78 year, our run to the championship game.

  7. #247
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    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    There was the time in the late 70's (or early 80's) when a NC State player was arrested for switching price tags on underwear at K-Mart (I believe). Shortly thereafter, NC State played at Duke and the NC State coach made the mistake of starting that player and, when his name was announced for the starting line-up and he ran out on to the court, about 500 pairs of underwear came flying out of the stands and onto the court. Took a few minutes to clean up the court!
    Pretty sure it was 1978. Two NC State players were arrested. Someone managed to get one of the Wolfpack's basketballs during warmup and slipped a large pair of panties over it and threw it back onto the floor. Half the stands chanted "under" and the other half responded "wear".

    Duke jumped out to a big lead and never looked back, with Gman dominating the state center, Glen Sudhop.

    Good times!

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I actually recall a women's basketball game when I was on campus where a person's transgressions were front and center with the Crazies antics and the opposing coach/player were none too pleased. She had been accused of shoplifting at Wal-Mat and everybody brought in plastic Wal-Mart bags to wave and just chanted "Wal-Mart" over and over again. I don't recall anything like that for a men's player in my four years on campus although certainly there were targeted cheers at players to get into their heads.
    Wait, Crazies actually came to women's games? I'd love to see that. I've been going to women's games since the start of the McCallie era, and student attendance has been...not great. Even in the early days of that period, when the teams were still winning, attendance was not super strong except when UConn came to town. I the last 3 or 4 pre-pandemic years, when the teams weren't winning, I've been able to come ten minutes before tip and sit in the "student section" at center court every single time. The only time it's even been an issue is when South Carolina comes to town, and at that point I've not been jostling for seats with Duke students.

    Hopefully the Kara Era turns that trend around.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    Is shooting percentage the way to evaluate this, or the relative rank of shooting? Part of the reason the recent seasons have been the worst shooting years is that the line is farther back and every team is now shooting a bit worse. If I have time later I can try to look up the relative ranking of 3pt shooting.
    That's a very good point. Here's the table of our worst national rankings in 3pt% (note this table only goes back to 1993; the previous table went back to 1987 when the 3pt shot was introduced):

    Code:
    Year	3pt%	Rank	NCAA
    2019	30.8	329	8
    2022*	32.8	213	?
    2009**	34.9	132	16
    2021	35.2	112	n/inv
    2002	36.3	93	16
    2003	36.3	91	16
    1994	36.5	84	2
    2004	36.4	82	4
    2020	35.2	79	n/a
    * so far
    ** I neglected to include 2009 in my original table. The 2009 team was 3rd-worst in 3pt% as well.


    This year's team still has a lot of work to do to avoid being Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt-shooting team ever.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by kidA View Post
    Yeah I don’t know. This one hurt. Friday to Tuesday is not a particularly quick turnaround, especially for essentially professional athletes. The ACC tournament promises several games in a row, the big one big games every two days. We have got to be able to play tough in those situations, or when we’re just tired or distracted for whatever reason. Granted, Ohio state didn’t have the same schedule and travel requirements, but they also didn’t have our team. There is simply no excuse for not scoring in the final 4 1/2 minutes. Period.
    So if “there is simply no excuse” are you saying this team is fatally flawed? Because if there are no valid extraneous reasons (travel fatigue, mental and physical fatigue from playing a late-night West Coast game against a legit national championship contender, etc.) for why Duke clearly didn’t have it in the final five minutes of the Ohio State game you must think it’s something inherent with the players and coaches.

    I don’t mean to be putting words in your mouth I’m just trying to understand what you’re thinking.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    So if “there is simply no excuse” are you saying this team is fatally flawed? Because if there are no valid extraneous reasons (travel fatigue, mental and physical fatigue from playing a late-night West Coast game against a legit national championship contender, etc.) for why Duke clearly didn’t have it in the final five minutes of the Ohio State game you must think it’s something inherent with the players and coaches.

    I don’t mean to be putting words in your mouth I’m just trying to understand what you’re thinking.
    “No excuse “ is an expression. Obviously, there are a myriad of excuses, but the point is we dropped the ball (another expression, pun intended) in the last 4 1/2 minutes and that is not acceptable. They need to find a way to do better, because there will always be excuses for not

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidA View Post
    “No excuse “ is an expression. Obviously, there are a myriad of excuses, but the point is we dropped the ball (another expression, pun intended) in the last 4 1/2 minutes and that is not acceptable. They need to find a way to do better, because there will always be excuses for not
    This strikes me as a very convenient argument that can be invoked any time we lose. For example: we fouled too much - gotta do better; we didn’t score enough - gotta do better; we didn’t play good defense - gotta do better; and on and on. It doesn’t take into account any of the myriad of factors that occur during a particular game let alone a season other than to refer to them as excuses and it surely doesn’t suggest what needs to happen to actually do better. As DBR posters, we gotta do better.

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    That's a very good point. Here's the table of our worst national rankings in 3pt% (note this table only goes back to 1993; the previous table went back to 1987 when the 3pt shot was introduced):

    Code:
    Year    3pt%    Rank    NCAA
    2019    30.8    329    8
    2022*    32.8    213    ?
    2009**    34.9    132    16
    2021    35.2    112    n/inv
    2002    36.3    93    16
    2003    36.3    91    16
    1994    36.5    84    2
    2004    36.4    82    4
    2020    35.2    79    n/a
    * so far
    ** I neglected to include 2009 in my original table. The 2009 team was 3rd-worst in 3pt% as well.


    This year's team still has a lot of work to do to avoid being Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt-shooting team ever.
    Thanks Kedsy as always.

    I’m not happy with our 3 point shooting either and the concerns of many that 3 point shooting would be one of the most significant weaknesses of this years team may be being borne out. Maybe. On the other hand we do have a small sample size. Per the rankings on Team Rankings and my math, if we had hit just 7 more of the 3 pointers we have taken, we’d be ranked at that #79 which is the “best of the worst” in your table. Best of the worst for Duke but still not terrible in the larger scheme. 7 more made threes would be less than one more shot per game going down.

  14. #254
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    That's a very good point. Here's the table of our worst national rankings in 3pt% (note this table only goes back to 1993; the previous table went back to 1987 when the 3pt shot was introduced):

    Code:
    Year	3pt%	Rank	NCAA
    2019	30.8	329	8
    2022*	32.8	213	?
    2009**	34.9	132	16
    2021	35.2	112	n/inv
    2002	36.3	93	16
    2003	36.3	91	16
    1994	36.5	84	2
    2004	36.4	82	4
    2020	35.2	79	n/a
    * so far
    ** I neglected to include 2009 in my original table. The 2009 team was 3rd-worst in 3pt% as well.


    This year's team still has a lot of work to do to avoid being Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt-shooting team ever.
    Thanks for the updated data. Turns out to be difference with no distinction in that it tells the exact same story: other than the Zion or Grant teams which had generational talent, poor 3 pt shooting is not a recipe for post season success.

  15. #255
    Join Date
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    This year's team still has a lot of work to do to avoid being Duke's 2nd-worst 3pt-shooting team ever.
    This year's team still has a lot of TIME and a lot of GAMES LEFT to avoid being Duke's second-worst 3-point shooting team ever.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  16. #256
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    Richmond, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by szstark View Post
    This strikes me as a very convenient argument that can be invoked any time we lose. For example: we fouled too much - gotta do better; we didn’t score enough - gotta do better; we didn’t play good defense - gotta do better; and on and on. It doesn’t take into account any of the myriad of factors that occur during a particular game let alone a season other than to refer to them as excuses and it surely doesn’t suggest what needs to happen to actually do better. As DBR posters, we gotta do better.
    Just picking up on this conversation so these comments are not directed just to szstark...

    It is worth reading the article on the front page of DBR...https://www.dukebasketballreport.com...io-state-upset

    "we gotta do better" can be an excuse to not get better... However, Coach K in 40 years has used losses like this to highlight things that players or the team need to specifically improve. In the article one of the thoughts is that Mark W needs to tone down his reactions to the refs. A different reaction to the refs might have made one of those fouls go uncalled. Perhaps when OSU was feeding the post, Duke's defenders on the perimeter could have done more help and recover so that Theo and John were not left on an island to get so many fouls. These are specific issues that can be addressed and Coach K knows exactly how to make these adjustments.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Wait, Crazies actually came to women's games? I'd love to see that. I've been going to women's games since the start of the McCallie era, and student attendance has been...not great. Even in the early days of that period, when the teams were still winning, attendance was not super strong except when UConn came to town. I the last 3 or 4 pre-pandemic years, when the teams weren't winning, I've been able to come ten minutes before tip and sit in the "student section" at center court every single time. The only time it's even been an issue is when South Carolina comes to town, and at that point I've not been jostling for seats with Duke students.

    Hopefully the Kara Era turns that trend around.
    It was against Tennessee and it was cited as a reason Pat Summit ended the series. That and us mostly spanking them in games(all with Coach G, I don’t recall playing them under Coach P)

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Thanks Kedsy as always.

    I’m not happy with our 3 point shooting either and the concerns of many that 3 point shooting would be one of the most significant weaknesses of this years team may be being borne out. Maybe. On the other hand we do have a small sample size.
    Sure, but wouldn’t you like that small sample size to show that Duke is shooting really well from three-point range? Small sample size or no, this is not looking good.

    I’ve been concerned for years that Duke doesn’t seem to be specifically targeting high school players who would likely be excellent three-point shooters in college nor do they seem to be targeting excellent three-point shooters who have already proven themselves in college and could transfer to Duke.

    I don’t really understand this apparent lack of emphasis, particularly since three-point shooting has clearly become the greatest weapon in college basketball.

  19. #259
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DU82 View Post
    It was against Tennessee and it was cited as a reason Pat Summit ended the series. That and us mostly spanking them in games(all with Coach G, I don’t recall playing them under Coach P)
    This is totally inaccurate. The chant was "roll back prices" Okay mostly accurate.

    I do think it one of the crazies defining moments that they got into a team's head so hard that the team refused to come back and play. In either case, removing themselves from the rivalry with uconn for similarly silly reasons I think was one of the things that has made it extra hard for them to remain a dominant program post-Summit., and other schools filled that void.
    1200. DDMF.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    Ouch... that's a pretty quick and thorough destruction of my argument. Let's see how I can salvage this... hmm... small sample size? Or maybe I should just admit maybe I'm wrong... but no one does that on the internet!

    SMALL SAMPLE SIZE!!!

    I've got you covered Scottdude - The 3-point line was moved back starting with the 2019-2020 season, so I'd guess that most schools saw a decrease in 3-point shooting percentage that season and since. And the line was even closer in the years where we shot 36%+. None of that explains our woeful 2019 season %, though.

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